ISIS and the Old Testament

[farout]

Surra 9:29 is one that every Christian should know.

Quran (Usama Dakdok translation) 9:29 Engage in war with those who do not believe in Allah and in the last day. And do not forbid what Allah and his messenger (Mohammad) forbid, and do not believe in the religion of the truth (Islam) among those who have been given the book (Jews and Christians) until they pay the jizya (protection money) and they are subdued.

I do not believe that the old testament proscribes anything resembling this toward non-Jews.

I know Usama and Vicki, and we communicate often. I too have his translation of the Qur'an, and have shared it on several occasions to people who had no idea what it was about. When I got mine I think the ink was just barely dry. I my self had no real idea what was in it. How terrible the way women are to be treated. I wonder if some who are involved in Islam have ever read the Qur'an. I feel there has to be some women that have not read it. If women have read it I wonder how they feel about the way men are to treat their woman, and how unfaithfulness it tolerated by the wives. So awful and sad is the religion of Islam.

You are completely correct that there is nothing like this in the Old Testament! Oh what a loving Creator G-d we have!

 

[BobRyan]

Except the two witnesses.

The Two witnesses of Rev 11 - are symbols in apocalyptic literature - the Word of God - the Old and New Testament - the "two olive trees" -- "not by might not by power but by My Spirit says the Lord of Hosts".


[/quote]
That's not what I said: I said that there is a considerable amount of violence in the statements of Jesus Christ and also in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. I was correct.[/QUOTE]

When He says "and some of you they will kill thinking that they do God a service"??

Notice that Jesus tortures no one to force them to become a Christian.

None of that stuff you see ISIS or the "state-church" doing in the dark ages to torture and kill the saints - is being done by NT Christians according to the NT writers in that first 100 years.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't really understand what you're asking. I was commenting on the fact that God brutally tortures and kills everyone who disobeys his commands in Scripture. That's the real God (and the real Christ) of the Bible. That's the God and the Christ that people should embrace.

you may certainly argue the point that God who casts people in the Lake of Fire in Rev 20 - "and they shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb and in the presence of His holy ones " Rev 14:10 is a horrific event - and we see it in Rev 20 after 1000 years. Certainly the fate of the wicked at the judgment bar of God - is not to be taken lightly - but rather much to be escaped.

"Do not fear those who kill the body and are unable to kill the soul -- but rather fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.

If the argument is that ISIS and the RCC in the dark ages should be able to do as much torture and killing as they want - no matter what the Bible says to the contrary - since God is Creator AND Judge of all the earth and it is only fair that God let them sit in His chair for a spell. -- I would argue that nothing grants them the right to sit in God's chair.

 

[BobRyan]

I know Usama and Vicki, and we communicate often. I too have his translation of the Qur'an, and have shared it on several occasions to people who had no idea what it was about. When I got mine I think the ink was just barely dry. I my self had no real idea what was in it. How terrible the way women are to be treated. I wonder if some who are involved in Islam have ever read the Qur'an. I feel there has to be some women that have not read it. If women have read it I wonder how they feel about the way men are to treat their woman, and how unfaithfulness it tolerated by the wives. So awful and sad is the religion of Islam.

You are completely correct that there is nothing like this in the Old Testament! Oh what a loving Creator G-d we have!

Amen!

 

[sparow]

Just as kind of an FYI for anyone interested in this thread: I find that many theologians/philosophers and other people interested in religion attempt to soften certain texts in the OT that aren't meant to be softened. In other words, they paint a very generous portrait that I don't believe is meant to be painted. I think that people just need to stare the Bible straight in the eye and admit the truth to themselves: God is a God who brutally tortures and kills those who disobey his commands.

God is about justice, one would have to do more than disobey His commandments to be tortured; like make war against Him.

 

[BobRyan]

God is about justice, one would have to do more than disobey His commandments to be tortured; like make war against Him.

Lucifer started off with pride "and a better idea than God" (in his own mind...) but that lead to war.

Eve started off with "eating the wrong fruit" - and doomed the entire planet - such that Christ had to come and be tortured and die for our sins.

You have made up an interesting rule - but it does not fit the details in the Bible .

 

[sparow]

Lucifer started off with pride "and a better idea than God" (in his own mind...) but that lead to war.

Eve started off with "eating the wrong fruit" - and doomed the entire planet - such that Christ had to come and be tortured and die for our sins.

You have made up an interesting rule - but it does not fit the details in the Bible .

Your reply doesn't seem to address my statement at all and my statement was in the context of the post it replied to and wasn't intended to stand alone.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

God's nature is unchanging, but how God does things is not always the same. I thing the problem is that we as americans always identify what or who something or someone is by what they do. So God's actions seem confusing because that is how we identify as they seem to contradict what He says He is.

 

[Achilles6129]

God is about justice, one would have to do more than disobey His commandments to be tortured; like make war against Him.

I would argue that disobeying his commands is making war against him.

 

[Achilles6129]

The Two witnesses of Rev 11 - are symbols in apocalyptic literature - the Word of God - the Old and New Testament - the "two olive trees" -- "not by might not by power but by My Spirit says the Lord of Hosts".



/That's not what I said: I said that there is a considerable amount of violence in the statements of Jesus Christ and also in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. I was correct./

When He says "and some of you they will kill thinking that they do God a service"??

Notice that Jesus tortures no one to force them to become a Christian.

None of that stuff you see ISIS or the "state-church" doing in the dark ages to torture and kill the saints - is being done by NT Christians according to the NT writers in that first 100 years.

Of course there are statements in Scripture like the one that you quoted: "...the time comes when whoever kills you will think that he does God service." But the point is that there are other statements that clearly reveal that the nature of God is to brutally torture and kill those who disobey his commands. This is obvious in the book of Revelation where people get tortured so badly that they "seek death and are unable to find it, they desire to die but death shall flee from them" (Rev. 9). It's clear from the OT where God commands the death of all apostates, etc. God commands slavery toward other peoples and commands Israel to exterminate all other peoples. This isn't very much different from what he did in the global flood. And, of course, in Deut. 28 God tells the Jews that if they disobey him they will be brutally tortured and killed. So it's really all over Scripture.

 

[Tree of Life]

We're all aware of the barbarity that ISIS terrorists have displayed towards anyone outside of their organization. We're also all aware that Western society (including, of course, modern Christianity) is basically horrified by their actions and that they have become the new face of evil for many in the West. However, there is something here that I think is worth considering from a theological standpoint (and I want to be careful how I say this):

In the Old Testament God commands things that are very similar, though perhaps not the exact same, to what ISIS terrorists do. Obviously the nature of God can never change. Indeed, the New Testament also has a great deal of violence in it: there's violence in the statements of Jesus Christ and there's an enormous amount of violence in the book of Revelation.

What do you make of these things? Wouldn't a society run by the Torah be sort of similar to one run by Sharia law (which is apparently what ISIS terrorists follow, if I'm not mistaken)? How does modern Christianity respond?

I have not personally studied the Koran so anything I would say concerning its teachings would be from ignorance. But here's some stuff about the OT and NT to address your questions:

1. The books of Moses are full of stories about God commanding and using Israel to conquer Canaan - so displacing the Canaanites. But this is a direct command from God concerning specific people groups at a specific time. It cannot be read as an ongoing mandate to wipe out non-Israelite people groups. Elsewhere in the OT God does not express that his intent for Israel is to wipe out other nations. Rather, the purpose of Israel is to be a light to pagan nations (Canaanites excluded). There's much more in the OT about being a blessing to the nations than about being used by God to judge the nations. This is partly because in the books of Moses Yahweh is understood by Israel as being the God of Canaan. Yahweh was kicking out his bad tenants to bring Israel in. It was unclear whether or not Yahweh had jurisdiction over the whole earth, though the Exodus story in part demonstrates Yahweh's sovereignty over Egypt.
   
   
2. Israel, once they had become apostate, were themselves judged by God and cast out from the land. God used foreign nations and unbelievers to judge his own people. That certainly throws a wrench in the world domination narrative.
   
   
3. A society that strictly obeys the OT Law might, as you say, resemble some things in Sharia law. For instance, adultery would be a capital offense. This might not be all that bad of a thing though. There would certainly be less adulterous relationships.
   
   
4. The NT helps to draw out the prominent themes of grace already present in the OT. Plus the NT helps us to understand the spiritual nature of the kingdom of God. Yahweh's Christ will indeed conquer the world but the initial assault is not through sword and braun, but through the proclamation of the crucified king. Indeed, when Jesus returns he will have a sword. But in this age our strength is found in our weakness.

 

[BobRyan]

Of course there are statements in Scripture like the one that you quoted: "...the time comes when whoever kills you will think that he does God service." But the point is that there are other statements that clearly reveal that the nature of God is to brutally torture and kill those who disobey his commands.

you keep switching "God" for "man" as if man has all the authority of God.

Why do that?

God destroyed the entire world according to Gen 7-9 in a flood -- is that what 'man' is supposed to do?
God will destroy the entire world in Rev 20 not only one generation - but ALL generations of the wicked... is "man" also supposed to do that - since in the model you are using man can sit in God's chair?

The moment you introduce the idea that man has all the authority of God in applying punishment - you are in a very problematic place.

So far you are not touching the point that the NT authors do NOT condone any "man" -- "any Christian" action that amounts to killing or torturing others for religious reasons.

In find that curious.

 

[sparow]

I would argue that disobeying his commands is making war against him.

Everyone stumbles and brakes the Law in some way at some time and I wouldn't call that war but those who teach the Law which is written in stone is abrogated are at war with God or are at least Satan's useful idiot.

 

[Soyeong]

We're all aware of the barbarity that ISIS terrorists have displayed towards anyone outside of their organization. We're also all aware that Western society (including, of course, modern Christianity) is basically horrified by their actions and that they have become the new face of evil for many in the West. However, there is something here that I think is worth considering from a theological standpoint (and I want to be careful how I say this):

In the Old Testament God commands things that are very similar, though perhaps not the exact same, to what ISIS terrorists do. Obviously the nature of God can never change. Indeed, the New Testament also has a great deal of violence in it: there's violence in the statements of Jesus Christ and there's an enormous amount of violence in the book of Revelation.

What do you make of these things? Wouldn't a society run by the Torah be sort of similar to one run by Sharia law (which is apparently what ISIS terrorists follow, if I'm not mistaken)? How does modern Christianity respond?

God never commanded anyone to be killed simply because they belong to another religion, and that makes a world of difference.

 

[AmericanChristian91]

In the Old Testament God commands things that are very similar, though perhaps not the exact same, to what ISIS terrorists do. Obviously the nature of God can never change. Indeed, the New Testament also has a great deal of violence in it:

Perhaps God didn't actually command people to murder others.

It doesn't make sense for various reasons. It goes against how Jesus wants us to treat others. Also murder is because of sin, so why would God want us to do more of it? Murder is a horrible experience, not just to the murdered but to those that kill. War unfortunately can also bring unhealthiness to ones mental state, so I don't see why God would want that upon his children.

But it does make sense.......

In a time before the message of Jesus and in an ancient world that doesn't have our sense of morals and also contributes the action of God to things such as the getting poor or good weather. In other words how God is involved in things is far more for them then it is for us. For example it was not unheard of for a tribe of people who butchered the other enemy as seeing their victory as a sign that God or gods were on their side. Or if they lost, that the gods were displeased with them.

Also while the Bible in inspired by God it is influenced by the views/culture of the time. So a culture which views God as more of a warrior compared to later views of a prince of peace, can influence how God is presented in paper.

I also want to point out that in the time period the OT books were written, people were not as focused on super duper historical accuracy when talking about the "past" as historians would later be. Often they would be trying to teach a lesson/theology. A specific point that doesn't require historical accuracy to be valid.

Biblical scholars generally think that the conquest of canaan that begins in the book of Joshua isn't historically accurate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Joshua#Themes_and_genre


Remember that while God never changes.....peoples perceptions of him can.

 

[sparow]

I have not personally studied the Koran so anything I would say concerning its teachings would be from ignorance. But here's some stuff about the OT and NT to address your questions:

1. The books of Moses are full of stories about God commanding and using Israel to conquer Canaan - so displacing the Canaanites. But this is a direct command from God concerning specific people groups at a specific time. It cannot be read as an ongoing mandate to wipe out non-Israelite people groups. Elsewhere in the OT God does not express that his intent for Israel is to wipe out other nations. Rather, the purpose of Israel is to be a light to pagan nations (Canaanites excluded). There's much more in the OT about being a blessing to the nations than about being used by God to judge the nations. This is partly because in the books of Moses Yahweh is understood by Israel as being the God of Canaan. Yahweh was kicking out his bad tenants to bring Israel in. It was unclear whether or not Yahweh had jurisdiction over the whole earth, though the Exodus story in part demonstrates Yahweh's sovereignty over Egypt.
   
   
2. Israel, once they had become apostate, were themselves judged by God and cast out from the land. God used foreign nations and unbelievers to judge his own people. That certainly throws a wrench in the world domination narrative.
   
   
3. A society that strictly obeys the OT Law might, as you say, resemble some things in Sharia law. For instance, adultery would be a capital offense. This might not be all that bad of a thing though. There would certainly be less adulterous relationships.
   
   
4. The NT helps to draw out the prominent themes of grace already present in the OT. Plus the NT helps us to understand the spiritual nature of the kingdom of God. Yahweh's Christ will indeed conquer the world but the initial assault is not through sword and braun, but through the proclamation of the crucified king. Indeed, when Jesus returns he will have a sword. But in this age our strength is found in our weakness.

1. The OT is a light to the nations, all nations.
2.
3. The Law given to Moses preceded Mohammad by a thousand years; The Koran is allegedly BASED on the first five books of the Bible called the Law but it is hard to notice; they omit the part that was written on stone.
4.

 

[Achilles6129]

God never commanded anyone to be killed simply because they belong to another religion, and that makes a world of difference.

Absolutely he did:

"20 “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed." Ex. 22:20 (NIV)

"40 Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there." 1 Kings 18:40 (NIV)

 

[Achilles6129]

you keep switching "God" for "man" as if man has all the authority of God.

Why do that?

God destroyed the entire world according to Gen 7-9 in a flood -- is that what 'man' is supposed to do?
God will destroy the entire world in Rev 20 not only one generation - but ALL generations of the wicked... is "man" also supposed to do that - since in the model you are using man can sit in God's chair?

The moment you introduce the idea that man has all the authority of God in applying punishment - you are in a very problematic place.

So far you are not touching the point that the NT authors do NOT condone any "man" -- "any Christian" action that amounts to killing or torturing others for religious reasons.

In find that curious.

Hi Bob,

Two things:

1) The title of this thread is "ISIS and the Old Testament." Not "ISIS and the New Testament."

2) The NT authors condone the two witnesses, and they torture and kill the earthdwellers (Rev. 11).

 

[Llewelyn]

I don't have to embrace a brutal God, because I embrace a just God. I do not explain the Old Testament, I accept it. Yes, God did order those things, and they were carried out. I do not believe it was just political manoeuvring, I accept that God said the full extent of their sin had been reached, and it was time to judge. Israel was appointed to carry out the sentence. Israel themselves suffered much because of their disobedience. Disobedience leads to an awful conclusion, both then and now.

I do not see parallels between that and now in any way, I only see what God foretold coming to pass. As with the nations of old we could avoid all this, but won't and many innocent will suffer because of it. If Sodom and Gomorrah had repented they would have been forgiven. If the Canaanites had repented they would have been forgiven, but just like today they killed the prophets and silenced the voice of truth, and it was that which doomed them. Are we going to let history repeat itself?

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob,

Two things:

1) The title of this thread is "ISIS and the Old Testament." Not "ISIS and the New Testament."

2) The NT authors condone the two witnesses, and they torture and kill the earthdwellers (Rev. 11).

The thread tries to equivocate between the ISIS muslim actions and ... the God of the Bible - or perhaps what God commanded in the Bible.

But the NT is not a theocracy - thus the attempt to equivocate between the theocracy in the OT and those dark-ages Catholic groups or ISIS groups trying to re-live the dark ages - all acting outside of a theocracy in the NT -- demands that we gloss over a lot of key details.