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Is Yeshua YHWH?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by SonWorshipper, Jul 23, 2003.

  1. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    13 I know where thou dwellest, even
    where Satan's Throne is: and thou holdest fast my name,
    and hast not denied my faith, even in those days
    Antipas was my faithful Wittness, who was slain
    among you, where Satan dwelleth.

    2. And who is the faithful martyr? Strongs #493


    From the companion Bible Looking at chapter 1 and 2.
    I have to go to work
    Shalom
     
  2. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Sabian, I am having trouble reading your posts, and I am participating in this thread, so I imagine that others also may be having difficulty following you that are just reading along . When you quote something I wrote, please make it in a quote like this:

    Or if you want to quote my whole post, at the bottom of each persons post is a button on the bottom right hand side, click on that and it will bring you to another page when the persons post is already in the field and you type what you want to comment on it about underneath it.

    Thanks, this will make it a whole lot easier for everyone to follow. If you have any trouble with this , let me know.
    :)
     
  3. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    And Sabian answered:

    GOOD!!!! We are making progress, now under Strongs #493 we find the word, Antipas and also that in only one place this is used in the whole Greek text, in Revelation, chapter 2:13

    The word Antipas is actually a combination of two other words:

    Strongs 473 & 3962 which are:

    #473 = anti = in exchange for, in place of, instead of ( often as a sign of exchange of relationship);)


    #3962= father, a male parent or ancestor

    So when you put these two together to understand what Antipas means you get:

    Instead of the Father!:clap:

    Notice also that in the passage, that Antipas is capitalized like a formal noun.
     
  4. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    I know how to use the quote but I can not. It does not work It only frezes my computer

    Son worshipper <<< The word Antipas is actually a combination of two other words:

    Strongs 473 & 3962 which are:

    #473 = anti = in exchange for, in place of, instead of ( often as a sign of exchange of
    relationship)


    #3962= father, a male parent or ancestor

    So when you put these two together to understand what Antipas means you get:

    Instead of the Father!>>>

    I see where you are at. Looks like anti-father
    The companion note for Antipas says
    A witness in the future who will be faithful unto death: Mentioned proleptically

    Continue on I do not see your point.

    Verse 12 is speaking of Pargamos.
    This I know about Pargamos It was a temple and alter to zues and
    the companion says A city of Mysia Famous for the worship of AEsculapius,
    to whom title of soter (saviour ) was given and whose emblem was the serpent.
    Identified with Apollo Acts 16:16 some trace the Babylonian pagan priesthood
    as removing to pergamos.

    Also A temple to aesculapius was outside the city of Jerusalem
    By the Pool of bethesda. Aesculapius was a god of healing.
    That is who I believe is the angel at the Pool stiring the water.

    John 5:1-14
    1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Yahshua went up to Jerusalem.
    Note: it is the feast
    2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in Hebrew tongue Bethesda,having five porches.
    Note: by the back gate of Jerusalem is where the pool, also there was a temple to the greak god of healing, Asculapius.
    3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind , halt, withered waiting for the moving of the water.
    Note: it was a great multitude of people waiting to be healed, as is in the healing tents of today. People waiting for the moving of the spirit. What are these people failing to do?
    4 For an angle went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water. Whosoever then first after the water was troubled stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
    Note: Is this an angel of YHWH? Is the evil one and Yahshua working at this healing pool? Isn’t it true that the evil one can unbind what he has bound if it’s for the greater evil? Would an angel of YHWH trouble the water? Look at troubling the water as confusing the minds of the multitude. Why would an angel of YHWH make a multitude of people race to the water to be the first one in? This breads selfishness. I have a rash on my foot that has been there for some time now. It hurts me, but I am able to walk. I have a friend who is in a wheelchair. Her pain is much greater than mine and she can’t walk. If we were at that pool I would want to take her into the water, or anyone else that was worse off. Maybe YHWH would heal my feet because of the unselfish act on my part. Making sick people race to the water to be healed , seems to me to be the opposite way that YHWH would do things.
    5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
    Note: this man had been wasting 38 years, waiting beside unclean water , to be healed. He should have been walking in the way of Yahshua caring for people who were worse off than himself.
    6 When Yahshua saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith to him, Wilt thou be made whole?
    Note: The messiah knew that he had been there too long, and asked him if he wanted to be made whole. Yahshua wanted to know if he wanted to get a life. One in him , one with purpose. Not to be sick anymore and not to be continuing in the life of sin that he had been in for 38 years . I don’t know how old you are , but today I am 42. So that is most of my life. There was a time when I was sitting by that pool.
    7The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man , when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I an coming down another steppeth down before me.
    Note: Sadly the man does not understand what Yhashua is saying, or who Yahshua is. The man complains of the selfishness of others to Yahshua, that no man will him. He doesn’t understand that it isn’t man who can help him, but the healing is in Yahshua, our salvation. Yahshua is the word of YHWH , the bread of life.
    8 Yahshua saith unto him, rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
    Note: This was a sabbath day, that Yahshua told this man to change his life. Go and sin no more.
    And is repeated in verse 14.
    9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath
    Note: It was also feast . In Acts 5:16 it tells how Peter went back with the athourity and power of yah through YAHSHUA to the pool and healed everyone. Unlike the spirit of the troubling the water where only the first man could be healed
    acts 5:16 there came also a multitude out of jerusalem ,bring sick folks , and them which were vexed with unclean spirits and they were healed everyone
    what are the unclean spirits here? Maybe the same unclean spirits at the pool, and the same sick people . YAHSHUA did not heal one YAHSHUA healed everyone that came to him willingly.

    So my Question would be is this Witness good or bad?
    I have to go back to work.
     
  5. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Sabian, I liked your commontary on John above but fail to see what that has to do with what we were talking about? What witness? Are you saying the one in Revelation? The Martyr?

    If that is who you mean, then I say it is none other than Yeshua. Which is what makes this whole thing spectacular!

    Yeshua as G-d the Father is talking of Yeshua the son, the faithful servant, the Faithful Martyr, who He called "Antipas" because it was that Yeshua/G-d that came instead of the Father.

    This is what I was saying about John. He knew Yeshua, as Yeshua, and even the risen Yeshua, but he didn't know him as the risen G-d, and G-d the Father, but that is who he met in heaven and that is why he fainted dead away!

    Revelation 1:17 When I saw him I fell down at his feet as a dead man!

    Read Rev 2:13 again and this time from an understanding that this congregation is made up of Jews that were in Jerusalem on Passover and stayed for Shavuot as the law requires and they were some of the 5000 that day that received the Ruach HaKodesh and brought back the good news to the other Jews in the Diaspora.
     
  6. Cephas

    Cephas New Member

    25
    +0
    "And the prophet said: Let us come, my Lord, to a second judgment. And God said: I cast fire upon Sodom and Gomorrah. And the prophet said: Lord, Thou dealest with us according to our deserts. And God said: Your sins transcend my clemency. And the prophet said: Call to mind the Scriptures, my Father, who hast measured out Jerusalem, and set her up again. Have mercy, O Lord, upon sinners; have mercy upon Thine own creatures;(4) have pity upon Thy works.Then God remembered those whom He had made, and said to the prophet: How can I have mercy upon them? Vinegar and gall did they give me to drink ,(5) and not even then did they repent."

    From the book of Esdra, for what it's worth.
     
  7. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Interesting.............. when was this written? I am not familiar with the extra biblical books.
     
  8. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

    +155
    Christian
    Single
    Well I am surprised... throughout this whole thread no one has mentioned John 1:1... is there some Hebrew idion here that I just don't know?

    John*1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John*1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.


    Thought I'd throw in v14 there as well. John flat out says that "the Word was God." He leaves no room for mistaking that either. And of course when in v14, John relates that the Word became flesh, we know that John speaks of the Christ.

    What I get from this all is this: the Word is as much God as God Himself is. When the Word became flesh was for a duration in which the Word humbled Himself. During this time we find that even in His humbled state, God still chooses to bestow all authority and power to Him, for they remain One. Never were they divided but remain 100% God whether in heaven or contained in the fleshly body of Jesus Christ.
     
  9. Cephas

    Cephas New Member

    25
    +0
    Well, to be honest I have no idea. lol...

    I've always wanted to research the apocrypha and other related writings, so the other night I started.

    If you haven't done so already, read Bel and the Dragon, and Daniel and Susanna, both of which are short books, but they are both quite good. Worth reading IMO.

    Heres a link if you wish to research it at some time;

    http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/apocrypha.htm

    Oh, and Enoch is also very interesting. It goes into pretty graphic detail on the subject of Genesis 6:1-2;

    1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
     
  10. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Hi :wave:

    Thanks for you participation. I think you misunderstand this thread though, we are not debating ( gently;)) if Yeshua is G-d or not, but if he NOW is not the son but the Father, as in the OP in Revelation reveals.

    John is a very good book for proof of our savior being G-d and also a very good companion to this study because it shows that John really understood who Yeshua was. Which makes it all more obvious why he fainted when he saw Him in heaven, because he had never seen him that way before, as G-d the Father.

    I do have to disagree with you about the 100% part though , as I explined ( I believe in this thread somewhere) that Yeshua was the only person that ever lived (yet) that has experienced what it feels like to not have G-d with you and that was when at the moment on the cross that the sins OF THE WORLD were laid upon him. In that horrible moment that is when the G-d part of him had to separate out and leave. It was only for a second I believe because then he died immediatly after crying out: "Eli,Eli, L'mah sh'vaktani " Which translated means: "My G-d , My G-d why have you deserted me?!

    Why would he say, My G-d? and not my Father?, because at that point he became a sinful man and at that point he died.

    But let's keep this thread on track please. If any of this would like to be discussed please start another thread. Or about an extra-biblical books.


    The theme here is if Yeshua is now G-d the Father as seems to be evident in the book of Revelation starting with the key verse in chapter 2: verse 13.
     
  11. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    This is what I was saying about John. He knew Yeshua, as Yeshua, and even the risen
    Yeshua, but he didn't know him as the risen G-d, and G-d the Father, but that is who he
    met in heaven and that is why he fainted dead away!

    Again I do not believe That .
    This is a teaching that is trying to say the FATHER is equal with the SON.
    I compleatly have to disagree!!!
    The FATHER is not The risen SON.
    I am coming to a point where I just have to disagree with you.

    quote from sonworshipper
    <<<Yeshua as G-d the Father is talking of Yeshua the son, the faithful servant, the Faithful
    Martyr, who He called "Antipas" because it was that Yeshua/G-d that came instead of
    the Father.>>>
    I can agree that this could Be the YAHSHUA speaking the
    FATHER's words but not as the FATHER as the SON speaking
    for the FATHER.
    To say that the SON is the FATHER I believe is wrong.
    All you have here is a theory. The FATHER and SON remian
    TWO through the Book.
     
  12. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    Now I can't get back to see the post's .
    Anyway Sonworshipper you ask what the rest of what I posted was.
    Well you asked what I thought about chapter 2.
    Well what is Pargomas? What was the Doctrine of Balaam.
    The people Mostly greeks were Worshipping these gods before, at,
    and after the time of BC/AD YAHSHUA.
    The doctrine of the Nicolaitannes. Two diffrent Doctrines HERE
    From 2:12 to 16.

    Baalam NUM chapter 22:41 to 23:26

    I'm out of time I have to eat and go to work.
     
  13. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    This is most likely why this is new to everyone. If by the Book you mean throughout the Tenach and Brit cHadasha then I agree, but only up to and and including Jude.

    The Revelation is AFTER all that went before. And this is the thing, you can't compare Him NOW as he was presented before. G-d has come in the flesh and completed his eartly flesh mission. He was lowered for awhile, not forever.

    The L-rd G-d promised four things to those he rescueded from Egypt,

    to bring them to the Promised land.

    Many today understand that the "Promised Land" is heaven or the new earth. This is what the L-rd was teaching back in Exodus. But look at what he said to them. This was showing how they Passed over from Death to life, then and ALSO in the future.


    Exodus 6:6-8

    6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
    7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
    8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.


    4 things, 4 Passover cups of wine, Yeshua said he would'nt drink of that forth cup until he drank it with us in the New Kingdom. That forth cup is where He takes us as his bride, the marriage.

    The L-rd G-d did all those things in the earthly realm with Israel.

    1. I will bring you out = He brought them out, away from those who wanted to harm them, oppress them

    Yeshua has done this on the cross

    2. I will rid you out of their bondage,= the L-rd took them out from bondage, slaves

    Yeshua took us out from the bondage and slavery to sin that we were all wallowing in- again on the cross

    3.I will redeem you = The blood of the Passover Lamb redeemed them, bought them , saved them from death.

    Yeshua became our Passover, his blood redeems us, buys us back from death.

    4.And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God:= At Mt. Sinai, the L-rd ( Yeshua) took to him a wife, Israel, whom He had redeemed.

    Yeshua Will take for him his Bride, both of the one that was his wife, ( whom he divorced) but will take her back, along with the others that were afar off, who now have been brought neigh, by His blood.

    The last has not happened yet. But as you can see, what G-d did so long ago in the flesh, He started doing in the Spirit through Yeshua on the cross.

    This isn't two different gods, but ONE.

    Yeshua is the Salvation of I AM.
     
  14. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    quote from Sonworshipper
    <<<The Revelation is AFTER all that went before. And this is the thing, you can't compare
    Him NOW as he was presented before. G-d has come in the flesh and completed his
    eartly flesh mission. He was lowered for awhile, not forever.>>
    If all HIS WORK was compleate we would be in the new Earth. YAHSHUA has to
    come back before all is compleated.
    It seems like you are skipping over all that is yet to come.
    Again the book of Rev, speaks of the LAMB and the FATHER as seperate.
    And you are very hard to understand.
     
  15. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

    +155
    Christian
    Single
    OHHH okay I had the implications all wrong lol Let me pose this then...

    Dan*7:13 "I kept looking in the night visions,
    And behold, with the clouds of heaven
    One like a Son of Man was coming,
    And He came up to the Ancient of Days
    And was presented before Him.
    Dan*7:14 "And to Him was given dominion,
    Glory and a kingdom,
    That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
    Might serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion
    Which will not pass away;
    And His kingdom is one
    Which will not be destroyed.


    This passage in Daniel says that the Christ was led before the presence of the Lord and was given a kingdom. They appear to be seperate here.

    And here:

    Luke*22:69 "But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD."

    The Christ Himself speaks of sitting at the right hand of God. They must still be distinct. At least this is how I see it...
     
  16. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
  17. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    A Pastor? A pastor came instead of the Father?
     
  18. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    Well Sonworshipper, I have found no proof that you maybe correct so far and I've been looking
    at this for awhile now. It seems the Maryter was just that someone that was Marytered.
    Got any Proof this was YAHSHUA and if it was Do you have any explanation why YAHSHUA's
    name is not used here?

    John Gill says:

    "Antipas is the proper name of a man; so a son of Herod was called
    (f), even he that beheaded John, and mocked Christ: and there
    might be a man of this name at Pergamos, that might suffer
    martyrdom for the Gospel of Christ; and who was an emblem of the
    confessors, witnesses, and martyrs, that suffered for Christ, in this
    period of time, through their opposition to the popes of Rome; for
    Antipas is the contraction of Antipater, and is the same with
    Antipapas, or Antipappas, which signifies one that is against the
    pope, an opposer of that holy father; and so intends all those that
    made head against him, upon his rising and revelation, and when he
    assumed the power he did to himself; such as the Waldenses and
    Albigenses particularly, who set themselves against him, openly
    declared that the pope was antichrist, and that his government was
    tyrannical, and his doctrines the doctrines of devils, abominable and
    fabulous. They bore a faithful testimony against all his corruptions
    and innovations, and became martyrs in the cause of Christ, many
    thousands of them being slain for his sake within the dominions of
    this firstborn of Satan. The Alexandrian copy reads "Anteipas"; and
    his name is left out in the Syriac and Arabic versions, "

    Vincents Word Studies says:

    "There is no other record of this martyr."

    Robertsons Word Pictures says:

    " Indeclinable in this form. It is possible that Antipa (genitive) was
    really written, though unimportant as the nominative follows in
    apposition. Nothing is really known of this early martyr in Pergamum
    before the writing of the Apocalypse. One legend is that he was
    burnt to death in a brazen bull. Other martyrs followed him at
    Pergamum (Agathonice, Attalus, Carpus, Polybus)."
     
  19. The Thadman

    The Thadman Well-Known Member

    +58
    Pagan
    Married
    US-Others
    Er shvaqtonee comes from the root shvaq which means "to allow, to forgive, to loose, to leave".

    See this article that I'm in the middle of writing:

    http://www.AramaicNT.org/Site-Index/Articles/LastWords.php



    Shlomo,
    --
    Steve Caruso
    (a.k.a. "The Thadman")

    Webmaster & Author, AramaicNT.org
    (http://www.AramaicNT.org)

    Lead Programmer, eBethArke
    (http://www.BethMardutho.org/eBethArke/)

    Assistant to the Livingston College Dean of First Year Students
    Rutgers University, NJ

    (http://livingston.Rutgers.edu)

    "The only thing that should be utterly liberal is cooking. To make a meal, you 'throw together whatever you can, because you can.' It's when this paradigm is applied to other things, --oh... such as government or sex-- that I cringe." - Steve-o
     
  20. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Leave or left?
     
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