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Is Yeshua YHWH?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by SonWorshipper, Jul 23, 2003.

  1. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    I think that is the whole point of my OP (opening Post) the Revelation shows not just what is to be but who Yeshua is NOW. Please prayfully re-read Revelation 2:12-13. This shows , I beleive that Yeshua is speaking as G-d the Father here. He is no longer just ther resurrected L-rd, but G-d. Notice that John, who was given the priveledge to experience this and write this down, his beloved servant who saw him repeatedly during those 40 days is in so much awe of him when he sees him, and doens't recognize him as his beloved friend and L-rd.

    Revelation 1

    8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
    9 (I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    11 Saying,) "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."
    12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
    13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
    14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
    15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
    16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
    17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
    18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    See where it says "like unto" because he really didn't have that human appearance any longer. Why was John so afraid that he fainted dead away? He knew that his L-rd was risen, had come back from the grave and had seen him, but now he not only looks different but I believe that John realized he had come face to face with the Father, G-d Almighty.
     
  2. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Not sure why the font is so big on my posts, sorry about that guys.:scratch:

    Anyway, the point I was trying to make with this post

    Isaiah 43
    10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
    11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


    Was that the Lord G-d , Father in many, many places tells the children of Isreal that He and He alone is their savior. King David speaks of it alot too. If G-d the Father alone is the Savior and there is no G-d but him and Yeshua did not tell others to worship Him, and the Pharisees wanted to stone him because things He said meant that he was G-d the Father, not son now, then how can you still not see that.

    There is but one G-d, do you worship Yeshua or not?
     
  3. ILJ

    ILJ New Member

    52
    +0
    Shamash Of Yeshua,

    How are you? Peace to you and may He bless you always. :)

    I know Yeshua/Jesus said we would be children of G_d, but I never heard where He said, "We would be gods.

    Son Worshipper,

    Awesome posts, :clap: I am thoroughly impressed.Keep up the good work. :pray:

    What does everyone suppose Yeshua, was doing by having tweleve disciples, yet He was not one of them? If the 12 represent a renewed Israel, where does Yeshua fit in? He's not just part of Israel, or the redeemed group, He's forming this group, just as G_d in the O.T. formed His people and set up the 12 tribes of Israel. That's a clue of His thinkning.

    Peace to all in His name :bow:

    ILJ
     
  4. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    I believe that Shamash is great tonight, he is moving into his new digs, Praise the L-rd He found him a place to live. :clap:

    Baruch HaShem!

    I think that he is referring to the passage in the Gospel of John

    Chapter 10

    30 I and my Father are one.
    31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself G-d.
    34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of G-d came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of G-d?
    37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
    38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
    39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,


    Apparently here the Judeans sought to stone him more than once for claiming to be G-d.
     
  5. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    BTW ILJ ( Me too ;) ) It's good to see you here again.:wave:
     
  6. ILJ

    ILJ New Member

    52
    +0
    Thank You Son Worshipper, :)

    I have been busy with work & the site I was moderating. Actually, I am co-site administrater with an Arab Christian. I have been in many heated debates/ arguments, as of late.
    A muslim recently threatened to take down our site etc...blow it up, or send a virus etc..

    Anyway, I edited my last post here, because I just had to say to you, GOOD WORK. :) Very impressive posts.

    Peace to all in His name
    ILJ
     
  7. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    I'm on page 7 now. Linda.
    Are you saying that Yeshua is just an image? Is that not forbidden? I worship Yeshua,
    am I worshipping an image? I think that he did say that one saw the Father, look below.

    Yes I am say YAHSHUA is the perfect Image of the FATHER, HIS SON.
    My oldest SON looks just like me. All my baby pictures look Just like Zildjian.
    If you see my SON you know what I looked like as a child.
    The command ment is not to make graven images and bow
    down to worship them. Did I carve out YAHSHUA?

    <<<So has the Father been seen or not?>>>
    Only by the SON. Can you claim to have seen the Face of the FATHER?

    You are not understanding me I have stated in this Thread that YAHSHUA saw his FATHER.
    But no other man has asended to the FATHER. Or seen the FATHER.
    My guess would be that his glory would Melt us.
    The FATHER is a light we can not look apon With our sinful nature.

    Adam would have been a Image also, So YHWH created an Image.
    We are commanded not to make an image not YHWH.
    So are you saying it is forbidden for YHWH to make an Image of himself?
    And I personal worship the FATHER through the SON.
    YAHSHUA is our HIGH PREIST sent to minister the word of the FATHER.
    YAHSHUA shows the FATHER's will to us.
     
  8. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    The first man Adam was the Image of YHWH.
    Was YHWH the first sinner by making an image of the hevenly.
    1 cor 15 states that we will bear the image of the heavenly.

    Vesre 47 says that the second man is the lord (YHWH) but my compainion bible states
    The words (the lord) all the texts omit. Now why was this added?

    So the verse really reads something like this.

    The first man is of the earth, earthy:
    the second man is from heaven.

    The scripture version states the verse like this.
    The first man was of the earth, earthly.
    the second MAN is the MASTER from heaven.

    Which makes me think that the verse does not Contain the Tetragramton of they would
    have translated it to YHWH.
    I will look alittle deeper at this verse.

    And I believe that YAHSHUA it the Salvation sent from the FATHER.
    YAHSHUA is our MessYAH , Not problem there.
    I just believe YAHSHUA is the SON not the FATHER.
    The FATHER is Greater then the SON.

    2 Cor 4:4
    Col 1:15
    Col 3:10
    Hebrews 1:3

    I believe YAHSHUA is our perfect
    example The image of FATHER that sat down at the right
    hand of the greatness on high.
    The FATHER's First creation.
     
  9. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    OK, I'll keep this simple because I guess I gave too many posts to answer to.

    Answer this , why did John Faint?
     
  10. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    I hate to keep adding more before you have had time to digest what I've already presented and answer to that, but the L-RD is showing me a lot in quick succession. Take a look at these verses from Isaiah.



    Who did Isaiah see?

    Why did he fear?

    How can one see the invisable G-d King, L-RD of hosts?

    Why did the angel need to cleanse and purify him with fire from the altar?
     
  11. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    I'd say that If you saw a vision Like all that revelation
    speaks of YOU would Faint to.
    That does not mean Jhon looked on the FACE of the FATHER.
    It means he saw heavenly things.
    He was seeing a image of what is to come.
    We will probbile faint when We see YAHSHUA coming in the Clouds.
    But answer when does the FATHER come?

    The book of revelations is an intence Vision.
    We will not see a vision We will See YAHSHUA HIMSELF.
    We will see the LAMB and the FATHER when all is said and done.
    Not a vision. We will see the true FATHER and YAHSHUA
    Rev 21:22
    Who marries the bride the LAMB which is YAHSHUA?
    Or the FATHER? Rev 21:9
    Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life
    clear as crystal, proceeding out of the Throne of EL and of the LAMB.

    If they are the same being then why EL and the LAMB's throne?
    Sounds like TWO a FATHER and a SON.
    Verse 3 says it again
     
  12. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    You don't need a Father unless you have a son, right? When there is a son , there has to be a Father, right?

    Adam didnt' get it right so the L-rd had to come himself and fix it. He had to come as a man to show the way. But he is no longer that man.

    Go back and read, John SAW Yeshua, but it was not the Yeshua he had last seen.

    Yeshua need not be a servant any longer, he is the risen G-d, look at those verses in Rev again, this is G-d, it is He who will judge, and if we believed on Him as the son and what He did for us, he then becomes our defense, not our judge.
     
  13. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    You don't need a Father unless you have a son, right? When there is a son , there has
    to be a Father, right?

    Adam didnt' get it right so the L-rd had to come himself and fix it. He had to come as a
    man to show the way. But he is no longer that man.

    Go back and read, John SAW Yeshua, but it was not the Yeshua he had last seen.

    Yeshua need not be a servant any longer, he is the risen G-d, look at those verses in
    Rev again, this is G-d, it is He who will judge, and if we believed on Him as the son and
    what He did for us, he then becomes our defense, not our judge.

    Sorry Son worshipper I do not believe what you have just said.
     
  14. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    And remember....He did command the "images" of the Cherubim
    (that covered the ark) to be made in the Temple In The
    Wilderness- according to the divine pattern that He showed
    Moshe.
    YAHSHUA is described as an Image of the FATHER should we
    worship that Image?
    Did they worship the Cherubim on the ark?
    Or did they have a good understanding of who to worship.
    We are told not to make a graven Image and worship it.
    Did the FATHER creat an Image of HIMSELF that we could
    worship? (YAHSHUA)
    Or are we to worship the FATHER THROUGH YAHSHUA?
    By following the WAY of YAHSHUA the WORD
    There was no other way we could identify the Almighty for HE is
    invisible.So HE sent HIS SON.

    But when you read up on the "cults" that these individuals were
    falling into, it was some pretty hard core stuff.

    Some of their minds were so "warped" that they were even
    convinced to 'sacrafice' their very own babies who they
    thought was a sacrafice to the Creator.

    They thought the images they were creating (like the golden
    calf) was ok to turn around and say this image has created me.
    The foolishness behind that.

    They would make/carve an image of wood or stone, and then
    worship it!
    FATHER YAH was saying over and over...
    DON'T DO THAT.
     
  15. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
  16. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    I think this is my understanding now.

    I believe The NAME of the FATHER to me YAH.
    That YHWH speaks of the FATHER through the SON.
    That when YAHSHUA was on earth in the flesh he was only the SON.
    NOT the FATHER THROUGH the SON.
    Yes the Gift's of the Spirit of the FATHER was in YAHSHUA.
    Like they can also be in us.
    But was the FATHER in YAHSHUA?
    To me if The FATHER was in YAHSHUA that would have made
    YAHSHUA Super Human. I would have to say that would me unfare
    to us.
    If the FATHER was in YAHSHUA or was YAHSHUA we would not have
    been able to LOOK on HIS face.
    Does that make cent's?
    YAHSHUA is the SON's name.
    I look at YHWH as a family name.

    Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an ANGEL before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring
    thee into the place which I have prepared.
    21 Beware of HIM, and obey HIS voice, provoke HIM not; for HE will not pardon your
    transgressions: for MY name is in HIM.
    This verse makes alot of cent's to me.

    The verse that I do not get is IsaYAH 9:6

    To me this verse might be mistranslated.
    Or just not looked at Correctly.
    Because I believe YAHSHUA to be the Counseller,
    that the FATHER has sent to us.
    Not the FATHER HIMSELF.

    For Unto us a CHILD is born. ( clearly YAHSHUA )
    Unto us a SON is given: Why was he given?
    Goverment shall be upon HIM.
    and HIS name shall be called Wonderful, ( Is that HIS name or what HE is?)
    Counseller: ( again that is not a name Counseller is what YAHSHUA
    is to us , He is the EXAMPLE of the FATHER's WILL, WORD, WAY.

    (sent from)) Is what I think?
    The Mighty EL, The everlasting FATHER,
    The Prince of Peace ( The FATHER is a Prince? )
    Why would Scripture Call YAHSHUA the MIGHTY EL , The EVER LASTING FATHER.
    Then Call HIM a PRINCE?

    A PRINCE would be in line to be KING.

    So I believe Mighty EL and EVER LASTING FATHER, to be speaking of the FATHER.
    And WONDERFUL, COUNSELLER, PRINCE OF PEACE to be speaking Of the SON sent by the
    FATHER.

    My understanding Kinda KEY's off this Verse.

    I have been doing a lot of studying and questoning lately and I have gone back to this
    verse and read it, and read it,
    and read it.It seem's Like my study carries be back to here.

    So does this verse Contain FATHER and SON?
    The way FATHER and SON represented, To our understanding,
    KING and a PRINCE?
    YAHSHUA is the HIGH PRIEST,HIGH PRIEST OF WHAT HIMSELF?
    YAHSHUA SITS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER.
    IS HE SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF HIMSELF?

    YHWH is the name of the ELOHIM we worship- and there are at least
    two personages contained in that ELOHIM. ("Let US create man in
    OUR image")

    The very word "ELOHIM" is a uniplural.

    YAHSHUA is the specific name of the SON. YAHUSHUA is ELOHIM/YHWH,
    and the FATHER is ELOHIM/YHWH.

    There is no proof, however, that the FATHER’s personal name is
    YHWH- YHWH is the name of our ELOHIM -and our ELOHIM is comprised
    of two seperate personages.
    The GREATER of the TWO being the FATHER The ALMIGHTY EL
    And I believe there is enough proof to believe the FATHER’s name is YAH or YH

    Colossians chapter 1
    Is like clear understanding when I look at it this WAY.

    Any thought's? A better understanding Maybe?
    Sabian
     
  17. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    The present Yeshua can only be found in Revelation. That is why chapter two understanding is so important.

    What understanding do you get from this verse?

    Revelation 2:13?
     
  18. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    Do you mean can only be found in revelation.
    Or in the book of Rev?
     
  19. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    Before getting in to rev. 2: Deep let's look at this.

    There are other things to look at also.


    These additions should be omitted from the KJV:

    Revelation 1:8 "the beginning and the ending".

    Revelation 1:11 "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and... which are in Asia."

    Revelation 1:20 "which thou sawest".

    Revelation 2:5 "From" omit , " Will" omit, "Quickly" the text omit, ‘"remove = move

    Revelation 2:9 "works and" the text omit

    Revelation 2:13 "thy works and"

    Revelation 2:13 " Wherein most text omit"

    Revelation 2:15 "Which thing I hate" the text omit

    Revelation 2:16 omit the first will, should read "I come"

    Revelation 2:17 "to eat of".

    Revelation 2:21 Should be "...and she wills not to repent of her fornication".
     
  20. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Sabian I think it is perfectly clear what I am talking about. The OP ( Opening Post ) of this thread is about Revelation 2:13 and that is what I asked you above.



    OK, I will post the verse to take all questions away.




    I don't know where you got the mis-translations from in your post above but they do not have anything to do with what my focus has been on, the part I have put in bold in verse 13.

    Now 2 questions:

    1. Who is this speaking?
    2. And who is the faithful martyr?
     
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