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Is Yeshua YHWH?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by SonWorshipper, Jul 23, 2003.

  1. The Thadman

    The Thadman Well-Known Member

    +58
    Pagan
    Married
    US-Others
    Aramaic Romans 10:9 & 1 Corinthians 12:3,
    Shlomo,
    (Peace!)
    --
    Steve Caruso
    (a.k.a. "The Thadman")

    Webmaster & Author, AramaicNT.org
    (http://www.AramaicNT.org)

    Lead Programmer, eBethArke
    (http://www.BethMardutho.org/eBethArke/)

    Assistant to the Livingston College Dean of First Year Students
    Rutgers University, NJ

    (http://livingston.Rutgers.edu)

    "The only thing that should be utterly liberal is cooking. To make a meal, you 'throw together whatever you can, because you can.' It's when this paradigm is applied to other things, --oh... such as government or sex-- that I cringe." - Steve-o
     
  2. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    Do you think you are in the image of YHWH?
    Can you look upon the face of the FATHER?
    The FATHER can make you a Mighty one,
    But you can not be EL, And should not desire to be EL.
    I am human and a sinner, I can not be the image of EL.
    Nor can I look apon The FACE of the FATHER.
    I can not even be totally obedient to the FATHER will.
    So how can I possible me One with EL?

    Deut, 6:3 Shows that the FATHER makes Israel
    mighty through the obedience of the commamdments and statutes.

    To me there is a diffrence between Mighty one and Almighty one
    Elohim and EL. Through Faith and grace David was a mighty one of YHWH.
    Does that make him YHWH? No I believe the answer to your question
    is lost in translation.

    I would answer your question this way.
    Can you be a mighty one of YHWH?YES
    Can you be EL ? NO
    What is your translation for God?
     
  3. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Apparently you don't understand the complexity of our G-d, a being that has many "facets" but at the same time Echad.

    You have not explained away this from Yeshua's mouth:

    John 10:30
    I and my Father are one.

    He was the son while on earth, he is also the Father. He was submisive as the perfect man, and obedient to the creators will, but at the same time He is the eternal G-d. Do you know how many times in the OT G-d , HaShem claimed to be "salvation"? Or how many times that his people called Him, Elohim, their salvation?

    King David said that the L-RD was his salvation. Now Yeshua had not come yet in the flesh, but David believed, just as Abraham believed, and by that they were saved, even before the cross.

    This is cool, look at the english:

    3 The God who is my rock, in Him I take refuge; my shield, and my horn of salvation, my high tower, and my refuge; my saviour, Thou savest me from violence.

    Now at the Hebrew, the words highlighted in red in order are Yeshua Mashiah.:clap:
    ג אֱלֹהֵי צוּרִי, אֶחֱסֶה- בּוֹ מָגִנִּי
    וְקֶרֶן יִשְׁעִי, שְׂגַּבִּי וּמְנוּסִי,

    מֹשִׁעִי, מֵחָמָס תֹּשִׁעֵנִי.
     
  4. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called wonderful, Councellor, the mighty G-d,( El Gibbor) the everlasting Father ( Avi'Ad), the Prince of Peace.


    "Yeshua said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58

    Who is "I AM"?


    Furthermore.........
    Revelation 1:8
    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.



    This is now the risen L-rd speaking.
     
  5. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    (John 10
    30 I and the Father are one.')

    If you are one with YAHSHUA does that make you YAHSHUA or the FATHER?
    YAHSHUA is the FATHER's will made flesh. I do not deny that.
    YAHSHUA is the image of the FATHER. But not the FATHER , YAHSHUA is the FATHERS son.
    Why do you think YAHSHUA comes and walks with us a thousand years.
    And the FATHER come After the Thousand years?
    To me it means that we will still not be able to look on the face of the FATHER.
    Untill after every thing is done.

    Revelation 1:8
    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which
    is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    I believe YAHSHUA was the first Begotten of all things He was the Begining
    of the FATHERS creation can I ask what ending?

    There is a clear seperation os the FATHER and SON All things coming from the
    FATHER.
    If you are part of the family of YAH then you are one.
    Why were there Twelve tribes?
    I believe it was because the did not agree,
    they seperated themselves from each other.
    If they did not do this they would have been ONE FAMILY. Not twelve.
    See what I am saying.
    When the disciples were looking at YAHSHUA they saw the will of the FATHER.
    Why did the FATHER do it this way? Because we can not look on the FATHER.
    I just got called back to work.
     
  6. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Sabian, did you read what I wrote in post three? About the Revelation passage? What do you make of that?
     
  7. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    King David said that the L-RD was his salvation. Now Yeshua had not come
    yet in the flesh, but David believed, just as Abraham believed, and by that
    they were saved, even before the cross.

    This is cool, look at the english:

    3 The God who is my rock, in Him I take refuge; my shield, and my horn of
    salvation, my high tower, and my refuge; my saviour, Thou savest me from
    violence.

    Now at the Hebrew, the words highlighted in red in order are Yeshua


    The only problem I have here is I believe YWHW speaks of Both FATHER
    and SON. King David said that YHWH is his salvation. I believe that David understood the FATHER and SON.
    He had a Understanding From Abraham and Isaac .
    David knew what the FATHER was going to Sacrafice.

    The only begotten SON of the FATHER. Well if this is true then how do you
    how do you could count the Set Apart Spirit as a son of the FATHER?
    Looks like a FATHER / SON RELATIONSHIP TO ME.
    Qustion For you trinity belevers out there.
    If there is ONE FATHER and ONE SON Then what exactly is the
    Set Apart Spirit of YHWH? The FATHER has ONE SON that states:
    That all Things come From the FATHER.
    Some people Claim that the evilone is YAHSHUA's twin.
    What a joke ? only begotten sons?

    The only verse I have misunderstanding with here is IsaYAH 9:5.
    which again YAHSHUA is the image of the FATHER so I can see
    that he would be called the FATHER.
    YAHSHUA is the perfect will of the FATHER. Which the angels of YHWH
    can not claim. I believe the angels keep the commandment of the FATHER.
    But only YAHSHUA could help us. It had to be what the FATHER
    concidered to be HIS SON why?
    Why is YAHSHUA the begining of everything?
    Why is YAHSHUA the end of everything when there is no ending?
     
  8. Lotuspetal_uk

    Lotuspetal_uk Say 'CHEESE!!!!'

    +1,142
    United Kingdom
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Hi everyone

    I've been reading with interest what everyone's been saying here and I was wondering if both sides could comment on a question I've had for some time.

    It's in respect of Daniel 7:13 & 14 but in particular verse 14. In the NIV Bible it states that one like the 'Son of Man' will be given authority by the Ancient of Days and all nations will worship him. But a Jewish Bible used the word 'serve' in place of 'worship'.

    I question is - does this refer to Yeshua and given this thread, do these verses mean that He is not God himself but One given authority?

    I'm still learning (more of being quick to listen and slow to speak :)) so would appreciate any thoughts on this.
     
  9. Ruhama

    Ruhama 25 'הושע ב

    647
    +16
    Messianic
    Here's what I really think.

    First off, I think Yeshua's claim to be God is more explicitly summed up in these words than the controversial "I and the Father are one" statement:

    "Before Abraham was, I am." (from John 8:56-59)

    But more importantly, the Father in the NT bears (imho) a significant ressemblance to the God in the OT that "no one can see and live." You have instances of God refusing to show himself because he is too holy, yet then you have passages where "the people saw God, and lived." Or he appears to Adam and Eve, or Abraham, or other clearly sinning people. What gives?

    I believe this is a parallel with Yeshua. One will show himself and interact with people, the other will not (cannot?) - this is what I understand to be the dichotomy of the "father" and "son" - the source, and the manifestation. Both are God, but are different ...parts.
     
  10. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    Let's talk about the Hebrew terms EL, ELOAH, ELOAHIM
    the variant forms ELUAH and the Aramaic ELOAHA. As many well know, all
    these terms are merged into one English word "god." But each term has
    specific meaning for being used to begin with. These terms are descriptive
    titles and generic terms for a family of beings, plus of the being that
    is The FATHER.
    What I'm interested in is uncovering what "truth" is.
    You can not find the Whole truth looking at the word God.

    The term EL means a mighty one, strength and power. When the suffix "ah"
    or "uah" is added to it, those forms add to the meaning to breathe; to be or
    to exist. The term "ELOAH" therefore, can mean "a mighty living being." The
    term ELOAHIM is a collective noun and means a family of ELOAH beings.

    Now, not only are these GENERIC/DESCRIPTIVE terms used to designate
    FATHER YAH and the ELOAHIM beings (Sons of ELOAHIM =angels),
    it can also
    be used in association with pagan deities and then of people too. Keep in
    mind it's not his name, it's a description of the type of being he is and his
    family of mighty ones.
    There are two YHWH. The greater is FATHER YAH. The
    lesser is his son YAHSHUA. Then there are numerous ELOAHIM
    beings (sons of ELOAHIM=angels). They are unified, one family of
    ELOAHbeings.
    YHWH gave mankind earthly things in order to understand the
    heavenly things. That's a fact, we can figure out the mystery’s.
    YHWH used a FATHER, SON, and BRIDE of the SON example.
    Because that is the way it is.
    YAHSHUA and YAH are seperate beings, the FATHER being in the SON in
    Spirit. A perfect Image
    The words El, ELOAHIM, and ELOAH all show up in the HEBREW text
    of the TaNaKh. ELOAHIM though it can be plural in number, it can
    also be plural in describing the attributes of one entitity i.e. a
    "Mighty One" which is what EL means. Example: Elohim can also
    describe the multitude of Might of the one it describes. This
    term is often used in the HEBREW Tanakh in terms of one(s)
    who Judges.
    whenever ELOHIM is used in reference to The
    Creator it is always followed by a verb or an adjective which
    based on the study of the grammer of the HEBREW text
    identifies the singularity of The Creator. When it it used in the
    plural since this is not the case, for the most part, but there
    are some cases where it is the other way.
    YahEL (#3100) - spelled Joel, means Yah is EL
    ShemuEL (#8050) - Samuel, Shem = name; hence means "his
    name is EL"
    Elisha (#477) - My EL is salvation
    YAHSHUA :salvation of YAH
    YisraEL (#3478) - He will rule as EL
    Elisabeth (#1655 origin: #472) - Oath of EL
    YishmaEL (#3458) - EL will hear

    Michael (#4317) - Who is like EL?
    Gabriel (#1403) - Warrior of EL
    Daniel (#1840) - Judgement of EL
    EliYah (#452) - My EL is Yahu
    Ezekiel (#3168) - EL will strengthen
    RaphaEL - Healing EL
    AdoniYAH = pleasing worship of YAH
    YliYAH= the strength of YAH

    YAHSHUA uttered EL before he died.

    Matt. 27:46
    And about the ninth hour YAHSHUA cried with a loud voice, saying,
    ELI, ELI, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My EL, my EL, why hast
    thou forsaken me?

    YAHSHUA talking to his FATHER , EL

    Hopefully that explains my thoughts a little clearer.
    And answer's some qustions.
    I spent some time here. I've been thinking about this alot.
     
  11. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    Shalom Ruhama
    I see you have read through the thread.
    I think my last post will fill things out for you.
    Today was a good study I had fun.
    I also looked every word that contained EL. WOW!!! I knew alot but did
    not know all that.
     
  12. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Who is this Ancient of Days? Lets see...................

    DANIEL 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

    13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Lets go to Isaiah
    Isaiah 9
    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Now to Revelation

    Revelation 1
    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
    8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
    12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
    13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man,clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
    14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
    15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
     
  13. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    "D'varim" "Deuteronomy" doesn't
    mean the writer understands Hebrew. Lets look at 6:4:

    Sh'ma Yisra'el YHWH ELoheynu YHWH ekhad.

    The four words following "sh'ma Yisra'el" are frequently analyzed
    as two verbless clauses:

    1) YHWH ELoheynu
    2) YHWH ekhad

    The first clause presents no difficulties having the meaning
    "YHWH is our ELOHIM". However, the second clause is problematic.
    What does "ekhad" mean as a predicate adjective in a clause
    where the subject is a proper noun? Most scholars avoid this two
    clause analysis. The fact is that these four words represent
    unusual Hebrew with no consensus on the meaning. From the
    context it is clear that the statement relates to the covenantal
    relationship between Israel and YHWH rather than a philosophical
    statement about the nature of YHWH.
    echad specifies a quantity of 'ONE'?
    More then one?
    This interpretation of echad is also parallel to haSatan's
    interpretation, since he also believes others can become like the
    most high.
     
  14. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Now just in case there is any confusion as to who that is who calls himself the Almighty, verse 17 & 18 of Chapter one make it very clear.


    17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
    18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


    This is none other than Yeshua who just called himself the ALMIGHTY in this verse

    8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    El Shaddai!

    Now who is El Shaddai?

    Genesis 17
    1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
     
  15. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    The Shema is translated as such in my Messianic Siddur:

    Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Eh-lo-hay-noo Adonai Eh-chahd.

    Here O Israel, the L-rd is our G-d, the Lord is One.


    And I don't understand what you mean

    D'varim means words, as in "these are the words Moshe spoke to the children...........From Deut 1:1

    These words were dictated directly to Moshe by the L-rd himself, I believe that teaching Moshe the language was part of it. Each word is as the L-rd wanted it to be. To deny that is to deny the whole Word.
     
  16. Lotuspetal_uk

    Lotuspetal_uk Say 'CHEESE!!!!'

    +1,142
    United Kingdom
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Thank you Sonworshipper! :clap:

    Posts #32 & #34 is exactly how I learn (broken down and step by step).

    Thanks for clarifying that for me! :hug:

    God bless you
     
  17. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    Now just in case there is any confusion as to who that is who calls himself
    the Almighty, verse 17 & 18 of Chapter one make it very clear.


    17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand
    upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
    18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore,
    Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Where Is the word almighty here? I agree that he is the First of the FATHER's creations.
    I agree YAHSHUA is the Will of the FATHER compleated.
    The beginning of the FATHER's will, the end of the FATHER's will.
    I also agree that YAHSHUA comes in all the Power of the FATHER.
    Which gives YAHSHUA the full authority of the Almighty FATHER.
    I do not agree he is the FATHER.
     
  18. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    Rev 1:8 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,
    which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    I am the aleph and the Taw beginning and end says YHWH
    (Family name YHWH is used here) YAHSHUA is speaking of The FATHER's POWER
    Through YAHSHUA Who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty.
    I believe this verse is speaking of FATHER and SON.

    In rev 21:22 Who is being called almighty The FATHER or the LAMB?
    The LAMB would be the SON Right. So why does it seperate the TWO?
    Because the Power that comes through YAHSHUA is the FATHER's.
    YAHSHUA is the word of the FATHER. Every thing comes from the FATHER .
    YAHSHUA was sent By the FATHER. So even YAHSHUA comes from the FATHER.
    Why would They call themselves FATHER and SON if that is not what they are?
    To me YAHSHUA will come with the Power and authority of the Almighty FATHER.

    YAHSHUA Came and will come in his FATHER's Name. Not his OWN name.
    But you are correct He has the power of the Almighty.
     
  19. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Is Yeshua G-d to you Sabian?
     
  20. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    You are most welcome Lotuspetal, I am happy to see you here again, I pray that blessed you and gave you more understanding! :clap:

    But I think I need to restate for Sabian's benefit.

    Genesis 17: 1 Tells us WHO the Almighty IS.

    And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him,I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

    Almighty G-d is translated from the Hebrew "El Shaddai" - So now we know who it is, don't we? Now lets go to the last word from the L-rd.

    Revelation Chapter 1

    8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


    So who is this Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end? Who WAS and IS and IS TO COME? Who is this?

    Revelation 1:17-18

    17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
    18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.




    So who but Yeshua lived, died and rose again ?
     
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