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Is Yeshua YHWH?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by SonWorshipper, Jul 23, 2003.

  1. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    Thadman OK you can translate the rest how you see fit.
    My point to posting all that is YAHSHUA used MY EL.
    Not MY ELOHIM. Speaking only of his FATHER.
    YAHSHUA calling the FATHER HIS EL They were not equial.
    And were not the same being.
    It is the same as YAHSHUA saying the FATHER is greater then I.
    It also points to the fact that YAHSHUA is not speaking to TWO
    parts of the godhead. ( As in God the FATHER and God the holy spirit.)
    { that's for who ever post trinity belief's here)
    I think most of us here are past that point.
    I believe that ELOHIM speaks of the FATHER through the the SON.
    YAHSHUA here is speaking directly to HIS FATHER here and calling HIM EL.
     
  2. The Thadman

    The Thadman Well-Known Member

    +58
    Pagan
    Married
    US-Others
    Why is saying "my El" bad to that theory? Plus, you are aware that El has a different meaning in Aramaic than it does in Hebrew?

    Shlomo,
    -Steve-o
     
  3. The Thadman

    The Thadman Well-Known Member

    +58
    Pagan
    Married
    US-Others
    Sooooo confused....

    Shlomo,
    -Steve-o
     
  4. Woodsy

    Woodsy Returned From Afar. Supporter

    +265
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Republican
    Thadman,
    What are the two meanings (Hebrew and Aramaic)?
    And how does that relate to the fact that El was the proper name of a Canaanite storm god? (In fact, wasn't he Ashera's husband? Weird, when we read about the Ashera poles erected by the Israelites, eh?)
    (I've always wondered.)
    :)
     
  5. The Thadman

    The Thadman Well-Known Member

    +58
    Pagan
    Married
    US-Others
    In Hebrew "El" is the short form of "Eloah" which means "mighty" or "power." It's one of God's titles, along with "Elohim" (litterally, "Mighty ones").

    The Aramaic cognate means "God." ("Eel" being short for "Aloho").

    In the Canaanite language, they used their cognate to name one of their three gods (El, Baal, and Asherah).

    Shlomo,
    -Steve-o
     
  6. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    The introduction:

    Revelation 1

    4 (FROM) John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
    6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


    I believe that this opening shows John the one he knew. Notice that it says :

    from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; also notice that it includes the 7 spirits which are before His throne ( His meanig the one which is, and was and is to come)

    But then in verse 5 we see it is also from Jesus Christ ( Yeshua HaMoshiach)

    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


    so it would make one wonder Isn't Yeshua the one that is and was and is to come?

    But then the L-rd says in verse 8 :

    8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    Here He is defined in many ways

    1. I AM
    2. Alpha ( Aleph and Tav) Omega
    3. Beginning and the ending
    4. The L-rd
    5. Which is
    6. Which was
    7. Which is to come
    8. The Almighty
     
  7. Aethelsige

    Aethelsige Regular Member

    83
    +1
    Messianic
    Yes
     
  8. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Aethelsige, which question are you answering? the title or the OP question?

    Is Yeshua YHWH?

    Or

    Did Yeshua come instead of the Father and is the Father?
     
  9. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    I spoke recently to one in my congregation about this and he read to me from his Pershetta the same verse Rev 2:13 and there was no "antipas" there, as there should have been if it were a name of a person, nor was there anything there in place of it, makes me think that this is what I have been shown , that "Antipas" was indeed Yeshua on earth and he is speaking as God the Father to John from heaven.

    I also have found some more interesting things that back this up in Revelation

    The church of Philidelphia:

    Revelation 3
    7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
    8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
    9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
    12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
    13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


    Once again he verifys himself in many ways:

    These things saith he that is:

    1. holy,
    2.true,
    3. he that hath the key of David,
    4.he that openeth, and no man shutteth;
    5.and shutteth, and no man openeth;

    Now notice what I have highlighted,

    He is speaking to this particular body of believers and tells them
    "and hast not denied my name"

    They have not denied his name. But what name is that?

    Now notice this:

    1.the temple of my God
    2. I will write upon him the name of my God
    3. the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem
    4.which cometh down out of heaven from my God
    5. and I will write upon him my new name


    Notice , the name, he speaks of writing the name of his God and writing his new name. I think that these are the same. He has a new name because he is no longer the servant, but the creator God.


    One other thing I noticed is that each of these addresses closes with:
    "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

    This after we see in chapt1 verse12 the seven gold Mennorahs in Heaven, the seven lampstands, which represent the seven bodies ( churches).
     
  10. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    Shalom , Sonworshiper

    You have brought up Rev 3.
    I beileve the world does not understand the word JEW.
    The word JEW is really YAHUDAH which means I will praise YAH. The word YAHUDIM means (Those who PRAISE YAH)
    Qustion can you Praise YAH and not Believe in YAHSHUA WHO is the WORD of YAH.

    To be to be a YAHUDAH you have to believe it the WORD of YAH. People that do not Believe in YAHSHUA do not believe in the WORD and are not YAHUDAH.

    8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
    9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    If you truly praise YAH , you are YAHUDIM.

    If you do not Believe in YAHSHUA The SON of YAH you do not believe in the WORD of the FATHER. You do not believe in all the prophecies
    that point to YAHSHUA being the SON of the FATHER.
    The world looks at a JEW as people that do not believe that YAHSHUA is the SON.
    I look at it as these people can not be a true YAHUDAH, because they do not believe in the SON.

    They are people that call themselves Jews and are not.

    I'll have to post some research that has pointed me to believe this later.
    PRAISE YAH
     
  11. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Shalom Sabain, long time no see.;)

    I agree with some of what you are saying, however I am trying to get this thread back on track, I already had to split it out to two other threads so far.

    One thing I will say about what you said and if further discussion is wanted I will kindly ask that a new thread be started.

    You said:

    First I don't think the world can be lumped into one mindset of the Jews, history tells us that. I think you may mean Christians look at them in that way.

    May I ask if you are using Romans 2:29 to make the statement that you said:

    I look at them as the decendants of Israel, the chosen of G-d, those who are living now despite all odds because they are still in G-ds plan, and He promised to bring them back, and to take them back. Their heritage denotes them as Jews and to me they are ones that just haven't had their Messiah revealed by the Ruach HaKodesh just yet, but it is happening , and the speed is picking up greatly! [​IMG] Praise HaShem!
     
  12. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    Yes I agree that it should be the Christian world looks at it like that.
    And yes I believe many of these people that call themselves JEW and are not will and are having Truth reveiled to them and many are becoming True YAHUDAH or YAHUDIM.

    And yes maybe you should start another thread.
    look at this.
    Let’s take a look at the Words YAHUDAH and YAHUDIM.
    Genesis 29: 35 And she conceived again and bore a son,
    and said, "Now I will praise YAH." Therefore she
    called his name YAHudah. And she ceased bearing.
    Take note that the Name YAHudah contains the FATHER’s
    name
    The same with YAHudim. These people have also rejected the FATHER’s name, They removed The name of YAH from Scripture and tried to bring it to NOT. When the name we should be bringing to NOT is the Evil one’s.

    The letters spelling Yahudah,
    yod-he-waw-daleth-he, in themselves can mean
    praise (Neh. 11: 17), but from the context, the name includes who is
    being
    praised: yod-he-waw (initial three letters of YHWH), combined with
    (aleph)-waw-daleth-he ("I will praise"). With the aleph dropped and
    the waw
    shared, the meaning of the name is literally "YHWH I will praise."

    Others have translated Yahudah as "Let YHWH be praised"
    Thus one meaning of Yahudim is "those who praise
    YHWH."
    Matt. 27 :37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS
    YAHSHUA THE SOVEREIGN OF THE YAHUDIM.

    Anybody that Truly Praises the FATHER YAH is a YAHUDIM
    Part of YAHUDAH or IsraEl (YisraEL) -------He Who Rules As EL You Will be PART of YAH's
    KINGDOM.
    Remember Their are YAHUDAH who say they are YAHUDAH and are
    not.
    WHY? If you Praise YAH are you a gentile? Or are you YAHUDIM ?
    REV. 3:9
    See, I am giving up those of the congregation of the Evil one, who say they are YAHUDIM and are not, but lie. See I am making them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
    Because you have guarded my WORD of endurance, I also shall guard you from the hour of trial which shall come upon all the world to try those who dwell on the Earth. (the Scriptures)

    Did these Scribes guard the word or did they Remove a major KEY to understanding Scripture by removing The name of the FATHER .

    After a Gentile is Grafted into YisraEL are they still considered Gentile?
    Or do they become YisraELites or YAHUDIM?
    AbiYAh-----------My Father Is YAH
    AhiYAH-----------My Redeemer Is YAH
    BithYAH-----Daughter Of YAH
    And of we can’t leave out HalleuYAH.

    Anybody else have any thought’s here?

    and Romans 2:29 is part of my study.
    and so does this.Today I look at words like Separateth, Seperating, divided, and it took my study to Ez chapter
    14, Proverbs 16:28 , Zec Chapter 7 , Neh chapter 13, Luke 11:17 Proverbs 17:9 ,1 cor 1:13

    And It seems to me that FATHER YAH wanted the tribes to become one and still does. But there seems to be things that kept them apart. So that is my qustion?
    What keeps us from entering the house of YHWH and becoming ONE? Surely FATHER YAH is not keeping us seperated it has to me US. Our house is divided.
    Because our House is fleshly, and not a spirtual House
    1 Peter 2:5
     
  13. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Yes, Jews. Judah and Israel are all separate things.
     
  14. AnthonyForChrist

    AnthonyForChrist Seeker of Messiah

    132
    +6
    Non-Denom
    That is where man has erred, just as HaSatan heas erred, is thinking he can become "as God."
     
  15. Pete M

    Pete M New Member

    2
    +0
    There is much evidence that suggests that Yeshua is God as is the Father. Christ humbling himself before the Father does not make Him not God.
    I think Philipians Ch2:6 may explain Christ's humbling himself toward the Father.
    "though he was in the form of God (Remember the Bible says there is only one God) he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force. On the contrary, he emtied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are." (In other words Christ made himself less and a man).
    In Colossians 1:16-17 it says "because in connection with him were created all things - in heaven and on earth, visible and invisable, whether thrones, lords, rulers or authorities - they have all been created through him and for him. He existed before all things and he holds everything together." (Quotes from the Jewish Bible). (The Bible says God made the world and existed before all things and Isaiah 44:24 & 66:2 says he created it alone. Isaiah 45:5 says there is no other God).
    Now if God made the earth and He did it alone and there is no other God (or diety) but God, then Yeshua must also be God or there is a difficulty with the first quotes. For Yeshua not to be God then Isaiah must have been wrong about God creating things alone or Christ did not have a part in creation and there is a Bible contradiction between the old and new testament accounts on creation).
    I don't personally believe there is. For me Yeshua is God as is the Father who is head of the Trinity.
    Pete M
     
  16. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    I never really knew a Messianic Person, that believed in the trinity?
    Or am I wrong?
     
  17. Shamash Of Yeshua

    Shamash Of Yeshua Servant

    +45
    Single
    You must think I would just say something without knowing what I am talking about. :( Read for yourself what I was talking about. Yet forgive me for not saying Yeshua was quoting what YHVH inspired someone to write in a Psalm.
    As far as Yeshua being YHVH, let's read the above statements Yeshua made. Does this look as though He is saying He is GOD? Or are those that want to stone Him saying He is making Himself out to be GOD? Read the context people. Also the quote Yeshua quoted is below.
    May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

    Shalom,
    Tag
     
  18. Shamash Of Yeshua

    Shamash Of Yeshua Servant

    +45
    Single
    I have come across those who say they are in Messianic Judaism and say they believe in the Trinity. Yet I think they are bringing that belief with them from Christianity. IMHO.

    Shalom,
    Tag
     
  19. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    I think this is key here:



    As well as this:

    John 2

    18Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"
    19 Yeshua answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."



    He emptied himslef and He raised himself, indeed it is hard to wrap our finite minds around but it still shows that he is Echad.
     
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