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Is Yeshua YHWH?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by SonWorshipper, Jul 23, 2003.

  1. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    For some reason It is really hard for me to get on this Page.
    I have to try and reload and wait and reload. And I posted a reply
    That I guess I should have copied because it did not go through.
    Because I can't remember most of it. And I'm to tired to try right now .
    This is a test , to see if I can post.
    Shalom
     
  2. Shamash Of Yeshua

    Shamash Of Yeshua Servant

    +45
    Single
    Is Yeshua YHWH? From what I have read and prayed over I don't see Yeshua as YHWH, yet I see Yeshua has All Authority because YHWH gave it to Him.

    Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians
    1:4 I always thank my God concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Messiah Yeshua; 5 that in everything you were enriched in him, in all speech and all knowledge; 6 even as the testimony of Messiah was confirmed in you: 7 so that you come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah; 8 who will also confirm you until the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah. 9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord.
    ...
    15:20 But now Messiah has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep.
    21 For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man.
    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Messiah all will be made alive.
    23 But each in his own order: Messiah the first fruits, then those who are Messiah's, at his coming.
    24 Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power;
    25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
    27 For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.
    28 When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

    NOTE: the BIG LETTERED words are YHWH and the smaller BOLD lettered words are Yeshua.


    The Acts of the Emissaries
    20:21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Yeshua.


    Paul's Letter to the Romans
    1:8 First, I thank my God through Yeshua the Messiah for all of you, that your faith is proclaimed throughout the whole world. 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the Good News of his Son, how unceasingly I make mention of you always in my prayers,
    ...
    3:19 Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God. 20 Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the Torah and the Prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Yeshua the Messiah to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Messiah Yeshua; 25 whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance; 26 to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Yeshua.


    Paul's Letter to the Ephesians
    1:1 Paul, an emissary of Messiah Yeshua through the will of God,
    to the holy ones who are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Messiah Yeshua: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Yeshua the Messiah.
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Messiah; 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without blemish before him in love; 5 having predestined us for adoption as children through Yeshua the Messiah to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, by which he freely bestowed favor on us in the Beloved, 7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him 10 to an administration of the fullness of the times, to sum up all things in Messiah, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, in him; 11 in whom also we were assigned an inheritance, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be to the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Messiah: 13 in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation [yeshu`ah],--in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of his glory. 15 For this cause I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Yeshua which is among you, and the love which you have toward all the holy ones, 16 don't cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him; 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of his calling, and what are the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the holy ones, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to that working of the strength of his might 20 which he worked in Messiah, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in that which is to come. 22 He put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things for the assembly, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
    ...
    6:23 Peace be to the brothers, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Yeshua the Messiah.


    Why I pray does Paul and others who wrote about YHWH and Yeshua talk as if they are two different persons? Yes, I know YHWH and Yeshua are ONE, yet don't you know we are ONE with Yeshua if we have Faith(Trust) that He is our LORD who is at the Right Hand of YHWH.

    Now about the Torah:

    The Revelation to Yochanan
    14:12 Here is the patience of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Yeshua."
    There is much much more that I didn't post.
    May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,
    Tag
     
  3. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    What do you make of these verses?


    Isaiah 43
    10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
    11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
     
  4. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    Shamash Of Yeshua, It seem we agree at at alot Places.
    I break it down a little more Because I think ( YH ) Or YAH.
    Is the FATHER, I believe No man has seen the FATHER.
    That YHWH In most places in the OLD Testament.
    Speaks of the power of the FATHER through the SON.
    That the SON is the WORD of the FATHER
    Look in the dictionary for word.
    The power and authority of the FATHER was delievered Through the SON
    The HAND's of the SON created EARTH and all that is.
    ( By the Plan, The Will , power, love, Life force,)
    What ever Explains the Set Apart Spirit of the FATHER To you,
    That flows across the Face of this earth and Brings LIFE,
    YAHSHUA is the Deliver Of this. And also our MessYAH.
    The Salvation of YAH. YAHSHUA is the SALVATION of YAH, not YAH.
    HE is the SON or YAH. HE is discribed as ELOHIM, The image of the FATHER
    The First Adam was created In this Image of The FATHER.
    But became Naked and Hide from the FACE of YHWH.
    Whose face did he hide from if no man has seen the FATHER.
    I believe that maybe Adam could have seen the FATHER's
    face before he SIN. But could not have look after.
    And really think it was YAHSHUA. The only begotten SON.
    Have to EAT Later.
     
  5. Shamash Of Yeshua

    Shamash Of Yeshua Servant

    +45
    Single

    Shalom SonWorshipper,

    Some very tasty MEAT indeed. I want to understand Hebrew so I can read the Hebrew. Can you do a word for word translation of the Hebrew so I can read that. This one is very Meaty, no milk indeed.

    Shalom and Shalom,

    Tag
     
  6. Shamash Of Yeshua

    Shamash Of Yeshua Servant

    +45
    Single
    From all that I have read except a few verses I would have to say I see Yeshua as the SON of YHWH and a MAN who was given ALL Authority by YHWH as Pharaoh gave all Authority to Joseph in Egypt. Since I see corelation with Joseph and Moses in Egypt as a Mirror of what is to come this is how I see Yeshua.

    Now SonWorshipper has brought up a Very Meaty verse from the Tanakh and I will have to chew on this one for a while. When a verse(s) are quoted I read before and after to see the context. This one can pretty much stand on its own from what I see. We will have to see the Hebrew word for word in English.

    Shalom,

    Tag
     
  7. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    This is from the JPS

    Isaiah Chapter 43

    10 Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall any be after Me.

    י אַתֶּם עֵדַי נְאֻם-יְהוָה, וְעַבְדִּי אֲשֶׁר בָּחָרְתִּי: לְמַעַן תֵּדְעוּ וְתַאֲמִינוּ לִי וְתָבִינוּ, כִּי-אֲנִי הוּא--לְפָנַי לֹא-נוֹצַר אֵל, וְאַחֲרַי לֹא יִהְיֶה


    11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour.

    יא אָנֹכִי אָנֹכִי, יְהוָה; וְאֵין מִבַּלְעָדַי, מוֹשִׁיעַ






    With translations, just click on the underlined words.

    [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. [/font]
     
  8. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    I just asked the L-rd to give me a verse that would make you believe who He is, and I think what He showed me is very appropriate, for there were others before you.:)

    John 20

    25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
    .
    .
    .
    .


    28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, :bow:My LORD and my God.
     
  9. Shamash Of Yeshua

    Shamash Of Yeshua Servant

    +45
    Single
    Thank you very much SonWorshipper!

    Yet I want only the words that are in Hebrew, NO added words at all. Because when words are added then the meaning can be changed very easily. And that is what happens when you go from one language to another. That is why I asked for a WORD for WORD translation.

    I looked up the word He and found only one occurance which is in Psalms 119:33 How ironic for I looked for the word "Him" as well and find NONE. Well I reckon this is where the mascaline and femanine comes into play. Show me WORD for WORD please.

    Just remember Yeshua said that we were gods. I forget where He said that.

    Shalom,

    Tag
     
  10. Lotuspetal_uk

    Lotuspetal_uk Say 'CHEESE!!!!'

    +1,142
    United Kingdom
    Non-Denom
    Private
    :D

    Now this is why I am 'quick to listen and slow to speak'.

    All of you here are definately chewing 'the meat' and savouring its texture whereas I still need to have mine pureed and mixed with some milk. :)

    This is an excellent discussion and I can see both sides so I wanted to thank you guys for a very thought provoking topic.

    God bless
     
  11. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Tag, I am still looking for the translation, perhaps Ruhama will come in and see this and help out. But I asked the L-rd to give more and this is what He gave.



    If we can't see G-d,because he is invisable, then who was this that claimed to be G-d Almighty?

    Look at the same verse in Hebrew here, I can translate a little


    א וַיְהִי אַבְרָם, בֶּן-תִּשְׁעִים שָׁנָה וְתֵשַׁע שָׁנִים; וַיֵּרָא יְהוָה אֶל-אַבְרָם, וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו אֲנִי-אֵל שַׁדַּי--הִתְהַלֵּךְ לְפָנַי, וֶהְיֵה תָמִים.


    What I highlighted in red says "ani el Shaddai " Meaning I am El Shaddai, G-d Almighty.


    Ani=אֲנִי

    El=אֵל
    Shaddai= שַׁדַּי
     
  12. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    I asked the L-rd and He gave me more...............



    Hebrews 1
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
    4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee"? And again, "I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son"?
    6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, "And let all the angels of God worship him".
    7 And of the angels he saith, "Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire".

    8 But unto the Son he saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom".

    9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
    10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
    11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
    12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
    13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
    14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?


    Psalm 45

    7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    Isaiah Chapter 43

    10
    Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall any be after Me.


    Isaiah tells us that the LORD says there is no other G-d but him, and in Hebrews we see G-d speak to his son and call him G-d.

    Now one more thing, lets look in Isaiah again:

    Isaiah 9

    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, ( El Shaddai) The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
     
  13. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Genesis 14
    18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
    19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
    20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

    Malchi - tzedek = King Of Righteousness,

    He was also called the King of Salem or Shalem= Shalom, Peace = King of Peace

    He is also called Cohen El 'Elyon = Priest of the most High G-d
     
  14. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    I can't read the replies on page 5 can get on.

    ( If we can't see G-d,because he is invisable, then who was this that claimed
    to be G-d Almighty? )

    But to answer your question they were seeing The image of the FATHER, the
    SON. Because if not YAHSHUA would have been lieing when he said NO
    man has seen the FATHER.


    Isaiah 9

    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government
    shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful,
    Counsellor, The mighty God, ( El Shaddai) The everlasting Father, The Prince
    of Peace.

    Why does this verse says shall be?
    When Shall HE be?
    Shouldn't he already be?
    Why the future Tense?
    Why is the FATHER on the Throne and not the SON?
    Why is the SON on the FATHER's right hand?
    Why does the SON inherit?
    Shouldn't everything be HIS?
    When does the SON sit on a throne?

    Isaiah Chapter 43

    10 Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have
    chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He;
    before Me there was no God formed, neither shall any be after Me.

    WHO formed this ELOHIM?
    Verse 11 I even I YHWH : and besides me there is no other saviour.

    Who died for us the FATHER or the SON?
    Did the FATHER die for us or the FATHER's image?


    What does the SON inherit?
     
  15. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    I am a Christian, though not part of christendom (the churches).

    Jehovah (YHWH) is the modern day common English pronunciation for God Almighty, our heavenly Father, the one who Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David worshiped.

    Jesus is the modern day common English pronunciation for the Messiah, or son of God. He is not Jehovah, never was, and never will be. He is in subjection to his heavenly Father.

    I do not worship Jesus nor a mysterious trinity.

    I worship Jehovah only, our heavenly Father, just as Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and yes even Jesus did.
     
  16. Shamash Of Yeshua

    Shamash Of Yeshua Servant

    +45
    Single
    Great points SonWorshipper.

    Great points Sabian as well.

    Now I would like to point out what I think is being revealed to me which I have said before and will continue to say until I am revealed otherwise:

    We have Egypt where Joseph and Moses were. To me they are a mirror of what was to come. Pharaoh gave Joseph over all of Egypt. Wouldn't Joseph be considered Pharaoh? After all didn't Pharaoh give Joseph HIS SIGNANT RING?

    And Moses Saved Israel from Egypt. Didn't Yeshua come to SAVE Israel from the World? SIN. Doesn't Egypt represent the WORLD?

    So to me Joseph and Moses represent Yeshua.

    This is all about YHWH's Chosen: Israel Period.
    If you obey YHWH's Commandments and have Faith in Yeshua then you are part of Israel. That is what the Tanakh is talking about. All others aren't part of Israel and therefore are CUT-OFF.

    Shalom,

    Tag
     
  17. Sabian

    Sabian Member

    281
    +5
    If YAHSHUA was only the SON here on earth And is the FATHER right now.
    Why does Rev: speak of the Lamb?
    I mean at what point do you think YAHSHUA became the FATHER.
    Do you think he was the FATHER, then was born here, human, the SON,
    then died , and became the FATHER again?
    How can you sit at the Right hand of Yourself?

    And I agree with Lared: If I understand him correctly.
    I pray through the SON to the FATHER, and the FATHER answers through
    the SON to me. YAHSHUA is our High Priest but not our FATHER.
    I believe the Will of the FATHER comes through the SON.
    No man has stood before the throne of the FATHER but ONE our High Priest
    The Lamb.
     
  18. momule

    momule amazing grace how sweet it is

    14
    +1
    :clap:

    This is a wonderful thread and GOD BLESS each of you for your understanding and edification........janet k.
     
  19. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Shalom and Welcome Janet!:wave:
     
  20. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Sabian there is no page 5, at least I dont' have a page 5, I am only on page two , that is all the thread goes up to for me, but that my be to do with your setting, how many posts you want to read per page. Check out the post numbers to make sure you are reading everything. We are up to post #60 with this one of mine.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Are you saying that Yeshua is just an image? Is that not forbidden? I worship Yeshua, am I worshipping an image? I think that he did say that one saw the Father, look below.

    In John it tells us:

    John 14
    6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
    8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
    9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
    10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
    12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
    13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
    14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    This of course brings about many points.

    He tells us if we know him, we know the Father and not only that but verse 7 says:

    "and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

    Philip says: "Lord, show us the Father"

    Yeshua answers: "hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father"

    So has the Father been seen or not?

    Also in verse 15 the LORD commands that we keep his commandments. Now if he is not G-d why should I keep "his" commandments? And what commandments? Is he not the one that dictated all the commandments to Moshe? He is the living Torah, no?
     
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