Is Universal Basic Income the answer?

[LeafByNiggle]

Hard work IS the way to monetary success. It's not luck. But you have to pursue the wealth you seek. You will never get wealthy if you spend your whole life working hard doing dishes. Nor should you. You won't ever be wealthy being a police officer or a grade school teacher. Wealth is something you have to pursue with making the choices to get there. And most people are not willing to do that. They are perfectly happy with where they are and what they are doing. They don't need or want wealth. They find satisfaction with their own pursuits.

It's not luck, it's determination and choosing to do the things that are necessary to get there.

This is just so wrong. Hard work is often not sufficient even to get by, much less achieve monetary success. Determination is likewise not sufficient for many to even get by. A UBI would go a long way to ensuring that everybody at least gets by.

Still not the same thing at all. Your talking about taking money from those who earned it to give to INDIVIDUALS who didn't. It's not remotely the same as building a neighborhood park.

It is the same in the sense that the money for basketball courts only benefits those individuals who have an interest in basketball. Likewise for school lunch programs that provide lunches directly to individuals. There is no difference in principle between giving a student a hot lunch at school and giving that student's parent a UBI.

 

[MorkandMindy]

What has worked in the past and what hasn't?

In the US as the 1920s progressed, a small number of wealthy individuals collected an increasing share of the money. At the end of the 1920s the economy came pretty much to a halt in 'the Wall St. Crash.'

FDR did a certain amount to remedy the situation through the Public Works Administration. FDR was challenged on the grounds the PWA was unconstitutional (whereas starvation is allowed by the constitution apparently).

WW2 forced redistribution of wealth.

End of Great Depression.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Another comparison is to look at what different countries do.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Another comparison would be how the trade balance (Current Account) has changed with time.

 

[MorkandMindy]

When I was young, I was told that it was best to have money in as few hands as possible to keep it together so it could grow.

I was also told that if J D Rockefeller's wealth had been divided up, it would have been only a nickel for each person. And look how much good he did with it. While the poor people in the 1930s just 'frittered their money away.'

As must be apparent, I now believe the exact opposite.

 

[MorkandMindy]

UBI increases the opportunities of the largest number of people.

It also reduces the worries of the largest number of people.

And I hope it also reduces the immensely complicated maze that is called a 'welfare system'.

 

[MorkandMindy]

UBI is not a Robin Hood tax, taking from the rich and giving to the poor.

The money for UBI comes from a variety of value-added tax (VAT) focused on transferring money from a new and growing part of the economy to the people left behind by automation, to balance the change that is becoming too rapid for most people to adapt to it.

 

[rjs330]

Another comparison is to look at what different countries do.

View attachment 309948

What's this mean?

 

[rjs330]

There are only about 11% of people on poverty in America. And the MAJORITY of them are under 18. That means by the time someone reaches the age of actually earning as wage, their poverty rate drops significantly.

So the UBI people want to tax the snot out of everyone add another trillion or more in debt to give everyone a UBI. When everyone doesn't need it. Those in poverty already get welfare, medicaid etc.

The poor earn about $28,000 a year in benefits. And that's paid out to 11% of the polulation. And you want to give EVERYONE money?

Patently foolish. Taking money from one group to pay for another group is wrong in this case. It's immoral. Especially when you consider that by the time a person is 25 they are no longer poor (if they were poor). Because they are working and earning.

 

[rjs330]

Hard work is often not sufficient even to get by, much less achieve monetary success. Determination is likewise not sufficient for many to even get by. A UBI would go a long way to ensuring that everybody at least gets by.

I think I just said that. Hard work by itself won't get you wealth. You have to pursue the wealth by working hard at the RIGHT things. You can be determined to be a great fireman, but you still won't get rich. If you want to be wealthy then you have to work hard at doing the things and the jobs that will get you there.

And pretty much everyone does get by just fine without UBI. UBI is nothing more than greed for other people's money.

 

[MorkandMindy]

What's this mean?

It means I pay attention to what people from Germany and the Netherlands say and do.

The position of the US at the bottom of the table isn't as bad as it looks because the deficit is only 2% of GDP - a small change would fix it.

 

[rjs330]

is the same in the sense that the money for basketball courts only benefits those individuals who have an interest in basketball. Likewise for school lunch programs that provide lunches directly to individuals. There is no difference in principle between giving a student a hot lunch at school and giving that student's parent a UBI.

Of course it's different. It's more equivalent to building a basketball court for every family in the US every month. Or paying for groceries for every family in the US every month.

 

[MorkandMindy]

So the UBI people want to tax the snot out of everyone add another trillion or more in debt to give everyone a UBI. When everyone doesn't need it. Those in poverty already get welfare, medicaid etc.

UBI doesn't work that way.

OP, line1:

Intent
UBI transfers money saved by automation to production workers replaced by automation.

Sorry, I guess this is a bit clearer:

UBI is not a Robin Hood tax, taking from the rich and giving to the poor.

The money for UBI comes from a variety of value-added tax (VAT) focused on transferring money from a new and growing part of the economy to the people left behind by automation, to balance the change that is becoming too rapid for most people to adapt to it.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I think I just said that. Hard work by itself won't get you wealth.

Hard work won't even get you by sometimes. We have special programs for specific kinds of "not getting by", such as social security disability, unemployment, etc. But each of these has its own complicated qualification protocol and hoops you have to jump through to get approved, and these programs do not cover all types of "not getting by". A UBI would be simple to administer.

Of course it's different. It's more equivalent to building a basketball court for every family in the US every month. Or paying for groceries for every family in the US every month.

You don't like the basketball court example? Then I've got a better one. The Child Tax Credit has been in effect for over two decades. It results in direct cash payments to individuals. As I recall, your objection was that a UBI is giving tax money to individuals.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Sorry, I'm in a bit of a mood - I just opened a letter explaining that the health insurance I'd already paid for, would actually cost ten times more, and I needed to send more money than I can afford, before the due date (yesterday) or risk cancellation.

I thought it might be a spoof letter, but it isn't.

The healthcare system exists only to squeeze money out of people, and produce as much worry as possible. The people in it are great, but the system was created by the lobbyists, for their health insurance companies. Health insurance adds 950 billion dollars a year on to healthcare costs. Neither Democrats nor Republicans will stop it.

950 billion dollars is more than the US spends on defense.

UBI needs VAT to fund it, but without a better healthcare system, it will be just a drop in the bucket.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Pres. Trump finally removed the fines attached to Obamacare, fines for if you didn't get it that is.

And I finally did get it. Then 9.5 months later it changed. Fortunately, I got my operation in those 9.5 months.

Now I've been moved into BeWellnm.

I was hopeful because this is a blue state.

New Mexico set up its own healthcare marketplace and took all New Mexico residents out of the national healthcare marketplace into their marketplace. Maybe they thought they would do a better job, well they didn't.

I opened an account following the directions in the letter they sent. The letter was wrong. After eight phone calls to the helpline I was referred to an expert (a contractor) and finally my registration was complete, and I paid the premium. So in total it was 5 weeks from when I first applied.

And now it's gone.

And they didn't even write 'Merry Christmas' at the bottom of the letter.


If they don't fix the healthcare system, all UBI will do is the same as any fixes to the economy will do - allow the health insurance companies to charge more money.

 

[MorkandMindy]

If they don't fix the healthcare system, all UBI will do is the same as any fixes to the economy will do - allow the health insurance companies to charge more money.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Also UBI is immoral because it takes money (income) from one person who earned it to another person (s) who didn't.

By that logic, any and all social welfare programs are immoral. If you accept that some are okay, then you can't use the argument against UBI.

 

[Pommer]

By that logic, any and all social welfare programs are immoral. If you accept that some are okay, then you can't use the argument against UBI.

Socialism is a-okay if we’re socializing war, (we all need aircraft-carrier groups, doncha know), but simply giving every citizen a grand a month simply for existing, that’s a bridge too far! (For some reason).

 

[rjs330]

Hard work won't even get you by sometimes. We have special programs for specific kinds of "not getting by", such as social security disability, unemployment, etc. But each of these has its own complicated qualification protocol and hoops you have to jump through to get approved, and these programs do not cover all types of "not getting by". A UBI would be simple to administer.

Not hardly true. And those programs are only for those who need them. Realistically only less than 10% of people need those programs. A UBI is a waste of money because 90% of people don't need it.