Is Universal Basic Income the answer?

[rjs330]

It’s enough to get a couple of days. What more to lazy single Mothers need?

Seriously if you are a lazy single mother you won't be working, out of the home or in the home.

 

[rjs330]

We won't have direct evidence of either proposition until we try having a UBI.

Are you kidding? One we have evidence of what happens when we give people money for nothing. They don't work.

Secondly, once you give UBI you won't be able to get rid of it even if it doesn't work.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Pretty much no one in their 30s works for minimum wage. A serious strawman example. Only 1.9 percent of workers earn minimum wage. The majority of those are teens.

Only about 700,000 people earn minimum wage. Most are teens, part time or working in the food industry where they are paid tips on top of their salary. That's an awefully small number of people to base a need for UBI for everyone.

So let's say both are making $15 an hour, for a total of $60K per year. Depending on where they live, say Boston where I was for 12 years, they dont get any EIT. Their rent for a 2 bedroom will probably be around $2000. So things are still pretty dang tight. Believe me, during the great recession, I was working for $18 per hour, on full welfare and still struggled to get by with my wife and 3 kids. 2 hour one-way commutes are not fun. Thankfully, things have improved immensely, but I don't forget those 3 years on welfare.

 

[rjs330]

So let's say both are making $15 an hour, for a total of $60K per year. Depending on where they live, say Boston where I was for 12 years, they dont get any EIT. Their rent for a 2 bedroom will probably be around $2000. So things are still pretty dang tight. Believe me, during the great recession, I was working for $18 per hour, on full welfare and still struggled to get by with my wife and 3 kids. 2 hour one-way commutes are not fun. Thankfully, things have improved immensely, but I don't forget those 3 years on welfare.

You advocating for minimum wage based on where you live and not UBI.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

You advocating for minimum wage based on where you live and not UBI.

I'm going back to the Earned Income Tax Credit from yesterday. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

There is an interesting book by Robert Heinlein called For Us The Living which he lays out a new society in 2086 where the economic system is based on The Heritage System, where everyone gets the Dividend. Those who want to work can do so and this also oddly predicts the rise of a gig economy and today's "social media influencers". It's been a while since I read it but from Wikipedia.

The Heritage System in "For Us, the Living" can be summarized by four major actions:

1. A required end to fractional reserve banking. Banks must always have a 100% reserve for any loan they give out.
2. New money is printed only by the government, and then, only enough to counteract the natural deflation that would occur in a system without fractional reserve banking.
3. The government uses this money (and only this money), divided among all of its necessary roles. Any extra is divided evenly among citizens and businesses that over-produce, to offset the loss of not selling their over-production (the government buying the over-production for its own use, which can be bought by citizens later if they so desire at the same price.)
4. Goods bought by the government are later sold by the government (or used by it), and normal governmental services (such as postage) are sold. These goods and services provide the standard backing for the currency, similar to how gold is used to back the gold standard.[12]

Dealing with government funding in this way is theorized to stabilize an economy, and deals with the production/consumption problem that Heinlein claims to exist with more conventional economic systems:

"A production cycle creates exactly enough purchasing power for its consumption cycle. If any part of this potential purchasing is not used for consumption but instead is invested in new production, it appears as a cost charge in the new items of production, before it re-appears as new purchasing power. Therefore, it causes a net loss of purchasing power in the earlier cycle. Therefore, an equal amount of new money is required by the country."

 

[rjs330]

I'm going back to the Earned Income Tax Credit from yesterday. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

There is an interesting book by Robert Heinlein called For Us The Living which he lays out a new society in 2086 where the economic system is based on The Heritage System, where everyone gets the Dividend. Those who want to work can do so and this also oddly predicts the rise of a gig economy and today's "social media influencers". It's been a while since I read it but from Wikipedia.

The Heritage System in "For Us, the Living" can be summarized by four major actions:

1. A required end to fractional reserve banking. Banks must always have a 100% reserve for any loan they give out.
2. New money is printed only by the government, and then, only enough to counteract the natural deflation that would occur in a system without fractional reserve banking.
3. The government uses this money (and only this money), divided among all of its necessary roles. Any extra is divided evenly among citizens and businesses that over-produce, to offset the loss of not selling their over-production (the government buying the over-production for its own use, which can be bought by citizens later if they so desire at the same price.)
4. Goods bought by the government are later sold by the government (or used by it), and normal governmental services (such as postage) are sold. These goods and services provide the standard backing for the currency, similar to how gold is used to back the gold standard.[12]

Dealing with government funding in this way is theorized to stabilize an economy, and deals with the production/consumption problem that Heinlein claims to exist with more conventional economic systems:

"A production cycle creates exactly enough purchasing power for its consumption cycle. If any part of this potential purchasing is not used for consumption but instead is invested in new production, it appears as a cost charge in the new items of production, before it re-appears as new purchasing power. Therefore, it causes a net loss of purchasing power in the earlier cycle. Therefore, an equal amount of new money is required by the country."

Interesting concept. Problem is there isn't any government that would do that. All government does is grow and grow demanding more and more and using it's power to stay in power. Taking more and more giving away just what it needs to to be able to justify what it takes. History shows us the problems.

 

[cow451]

NM

 

[MorkandMindy]

I read in a questionnaire:
Can the US afford four years of far-left rule?
Do you think people should keep more of what they earn?

etc.

My feeling was - weird question - and, I've never spent as much on income tax as on healthcare costs.

Apparently that's not unusual:
ave income tax per capita = 13.29% (2019)
ave healthcare cost per capita = 16.83% (2019)

 

[MorkandMindy]

Even if UBI was funded from Income Tax, which it is not intended to be, and I think is unlikely,

health insurance companies are a bigger problem.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Beneficiaries
It is currently proposed as 1,000 dollars per month to every citizen or resident in the US irrespective of other income or circumstances.

1. Ask citizens of the former Soviet Union how it worked for them.

2. Why would the likes of John Kerry need 1,000 a month? Why would Oprah need 1,000 a month? Why would Lebron James need 1,000 a month? Why would Jeff Bezos need 1,000 a month?

 

[cow451]

I read in a questionnaire:
Can the US afford four years of far-left rule?
Do you think people should keep more of what they earn?

etc.

My feeling was - weird question - and, I've never spent as much on income tax as on healthcare costs.

Apparently that's not unusual:
ave income tax per capita = 13.29% (2019)
ave healthcare cost per capita = 16.83% (2019)

How did you get in the RNC mailing list?

 

[MorkandMindy]

I read in a questionnaire:
Can the US afford four years of far-left rule?
Do you think people should keep more of what they earn?

Etc.

My feeling was - weird question - and I've never spent as much on income tax as on healthcare costs.

Apparently that's not unusual:
ave income tax per capita = 13.29% (2019)
ave healthcare cost per capita = 16.83% (2019)

How did you get in the RNC mailing list?

I took part in an online questionnaire that achieved nothing. I made some obvious suggestions like freeing Julian Assange and taking Andrew Yang on board before the Democrats do, and since then I've gotten tons of crazy mail.

 

[MorkandMindy]

In summary, I would suggest:

UBI draws funds from a new and growing source of money -

Objections seem based on the help it would give to everyone, that the rich don't need it and the poor don't deserve it.

But the media is not adequately discussing how the economy, the basic financial structure of this country and most countries, is changing.

Here's a little peek at the kind of change our economy is experiencing,

 

[MorkandMindy]

This article came out ten years ago, but it illustrates how little progress has there has been in addressing the change: