Is Universal Basic Income the answer?

[trophy33]

Nope, that's not accurate. Universities over there are restricted precisely because of the cost.

Finland offers a nice deal for students only if they are lucky and talented enough to get in. In 2016, Finnish institutions of higher education accepted just 33 percent of applicants. That’s the degree of selectivity we’d expect from an elite college in America, yet that is the admissions rate for Finland’s entire university system. There is a price to pay for that kind of selectivity: Finland ranks in the bottom third of developed countries for college-degree attainment. Meanwhile, the tuition-charging United States ranks in the top third, thanks to open-enrollment policies at many of our colleges and universities, along with private financing and plenty of spots offered through a diverse range of institutions.

This is due to the cost.

None of this is to say that college isn't too expensive. It is, but the answer is not always let's get the government to make it free.

I am not sure why you got fixated so much on Finland. None of us studied in Finland. There are 26 other EU countries. We can share our personal experiences about how we personally studied and what was the cost of it. Its more effective than to google some articles.

It seems like you are really find of getting "free" stuff. Maybe we should have free money, free education, free medical, free housing, free food, free cars, free gas, free utilities, free electric cars, free electricity.
I just don't know where we are going to get all this money for all the free stuff.

Free education? Yes.
Free healthcare? Yes.
Universal basic income? Maybe.
Free electricity? Maybe in the future when we will be able to come with almost free energy. The same with cars, food, housing etc. It all evolves as society and tech evolves. The basic standard of living grows in time. If it stagnates, the society is broken. If you want todays generation to have as hard life as you had, its not good.

 

[trophy33]

"Common" people can go to school here. They can even get worthless degrees.if they want.

And can they get worthy degrees for free or for symbolic payments? Thats the point of my question.

 

[Sunshinee777]

Nope, that's not accurate. Universities over there are restricted precisely because of the cost.

Finland offers a nice deal for students only if they are lucky and talented enough to get in. In 2016, Finnish institutions of higher education accepted just 33 percent of applicants. That’s the degree of selectivity we’d expect from an elite college in America, yet that is the admissions rate for Finland’s entire university system. There is a price to pay for that kind of selectivity: Finland ranks in the bottom third of developed countries for college-degree attainment. Meanwhile, the tuition-charging United States ranks in the top third, thanks to open-enrollment policies at many of our colleges and universities, along with private financing and plenty of spots offered through a diverse range of institutions.

This is due to the cost.

None of this is to say that college isn't too expensive. It is, but the answer is not always let's get the government to make it free.

It seems like you are really find of getting "free" stuff. Maybe we should have free money, free education, free medical, free housing, free food, free cars, free gas, free utilities, free electric cars, free electricity.

I just don't know where we are going to get all this money for all the free stuff.

Education system is overrated here, I bet education is much more high quality and better anywhere else than in Finland.
Based on fact that if you want to learn something, you can get much more info from books written in English than in Finnish, that alone tells volumes.
And how many times doctors here literally Google when they try to make diagnoses like wt... ? It doesn’t show that you know your stuff.
And how many people are missdisgnosed all the time but that is another topic.
You can’t learn everything on books you also need problem solving skills, connecting the dots and also ”intuition” or how I like to say Holy Spirit guidance as christian.

 

[trophy33]

Your free college isn't really all as great as some would like to make out. It's getting harder and harder for your governments to fund the bills. Which then further restricts people.

Nobody said its easy peasy. The basic equality of people comes with costs and some uneasiness.

The point is that the cost of free education or of free healthcare is cheaper in the long run than the alternative and its morally superior. You pay a bit more to have a more educated and healthy society as a whole. Oh mine, what a terrible idea. The end of freedom, the end of the world, communism etc.

 

[rjs330]

I am not sure why you fixated so much on Finland. There are 26 other EU countries.


Free education? Yes.
Free healthcare? Yes.
Universal basic income? Maybe.
Free electricity? Maybe in the future when we will be able to come with almost free energy. The same with cars, food, housing etc. It all evolves as society and tech evolves. The basic standard of living grows in time. If it stagnates, the society is broken. If you want todays generation to have as hard life as you had, its not good.

And other EU countries are facing the same problems. I've mentioned them.

The problem is all the his free stuff isn't free. It comes with a heavy cost that your future generations will have to pay for. It's all socialism and eventually it collapses. Then life gets really hard. It never ends well. It never has and never will. Freedom disappears and th government controls everything cause it has to pay for everything.

My kids are most likely going to have it worse than I did. As all this spending finally catches up to everyone. In the EU you are limited in your education. Plain and simple. If you have an education you can get paid better. But then they limit those that can get an education.

You know we left Europe to get free. Not to be told what to do.

And right now our government is gaining more and more control over us.

 

[rjs330]

And can they get worthy degrees for free or for symbolic payments? Thats the point of my question.

Irrelevant. Only a certain number of EU people can get that. That's the trade off. Here anyone can get that degree if they want. In the EU only a certain number can.

 

[rjs330]

Nobody said its easy peasy. The basic equality of people comes with costs and some uneasiness.

The point is that the cost of free education or of free healthcare is cheaper in the long run than the alternative and its morally superior. You pay a bit more to have a more educated and healthy society as a whole. Oh mine, what a terrible idea. The end of freedom, the end of the world, communism etc.

Is it morally superior to restrict who goes to school and what they are allowed to study? I don't think so.

 

[Larniavc]

Is it not labor to be a homemaker? To become educated? To be a good citizen? Everyone benefits from having members like these in their community, so why gatekeep these things behind wealth and free time, something the hardest working among us don’t have?

I agree that it is. It the owners of the means of production have no interest in any of them. Community? Other super rich people. Stay at home parent? Means the other has a well paying job they can save on. Educated? Creates challenges to the stays quo. Good citizen? How to inspire fear about your neighbours if everyone is a good citizen?

America is built on teaching people that you are only as valuable as how much profit you can provide for a select few and that state of affairs is a natural m, unavoidable and moral imperative.

 

[trophy33]

The problem is all the his free stuff isn't free.

Its paid by taxes. When I studied or was ill, others paid it. Now I am the one paying the current studends or ill people.

It works as long as enough children are born to keep the age groups in the population even. Thats why the declining birth rate in EU is a problem.

It comes with a heavy cost that your future generations will have to pay for. It's all socialism and eventually it collapses.

Actually, the USA are not less in debt than the "socialism" in the EU countries.

My kids are most likely going to have it worse than I did.

Thats sad. Thank God I cannot say that about my hypotethical kids. Also my life is much better than the life of my parents.

You know we left Europe to get free. Not to be told what to do.

I understand that the first pilgrims got to the USA to escape religious persecution. Not to be free from rules as such. Any society needs rules. Also, not to mention that just few nationalities were free in America until recently.

 

[trophy33]

Irrelevant. Only a certain number of EU people can get that. That's the trade off. Here anyone can get that degree if they want. In the EU only a certain number can.

Is it morally superior to restrict who goes to school and what they are allowed to study? I don't think so.

In the EU you are limited in your education. Plain and simple.

Not sure what you mean. The capacity of schools? Or something else?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Then we don't need UBI.

When I said only a "very few" I was referring to people who are lazy, not people who are having difficulty earning money. Again you are conflating hard work with monetary success. Hard work is necessary but not sufficient for monetary success. Most people have the will to work hard. But despite having the will, they often do not have the success. Those that do are the lucky ones.

You keep saying the rich are lucky.

And you keep saying all it takes is the will to work hard.

You have no idea. The rich aren't lucky. Certainly not by and large. They are just willing to do what it takes to get there.

They do have that, but so do the underpaid staff at a nursing home. They work harder than the typical real estate developer or hedge fund manager.

You have ZERO idea of what you are talking about.

Citing what 177 self-made millionaires said is meaningless. I could write a book about "What 320 million struggling Americans told me" and it would be more authoritative.

You just are coming off as jealous.

How could I be jealous of the rich? I'm one of them. And I realize that I am rich not because I have an exceptional will to work hard, but that I am lucky - or to put it more accurately in terms of my faith, I have been blessed by God with good opportunities, good health, and natural interests that the world happens to reward at the present moment. These blessing from God are undeserved. I did not earn them. They were given to me by God. I know plenty of people who work harder than I do and are struggling economically. They did not do anything to deserve the harder life they lead. Why God blessed me in this way and not them is mystery known only to God. Perhaps God is giving me Uncle Ben's "Spiderman Challenge"? I don't know. All I do know is that merely having the will does not guarantee one will not be in hardship.

Truth is most people aren't rich because they are not willing to do what it takes to get rich. Like me. I'm not rich. I work hard, but I'm not willing to do what it takes to be a millionaire. I'm not that interested in doing those things.

Don't be so hard on yourself. Bill Gates does not deserve his fortune any more than you.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Not the same thing at all.

When you say it is immoral for Government to demand that you pay taxes and then spend that money on something that does not benefit you, I can come up with many examples to the contrary. Building a park with basketball courts is just one tiny example. The idea that taxes is stealing is just an extreme libertarian talking point.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Nope Americans have and do stay home rather than work when provided and income.

How the New Era of Expanded Welfare Programs is Keeping Americans from Working

An opinion piece from a think tank in Naples Florida is not convincing to me. Besides, this piece is based on welfare programs that go away when you get a good job. It is that aspect of the program that encourages people to avoid work. But the UBI is different. It does not go away when you get a job. So a major disincentive to get a job is removed. That makes this article about welfare inapplicable.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Nearly everyone in the US follows a classical understanding of the economy because the US did not leave that economy until 1975.

And though the economy is very different, our thinking has not yet caught up.

 

[MorkandMindy]

We are now in the first part of the Fourth Industrial Revolution.

We could meet the current levels of demand using only 40% of the population.

So how do we pay the other 60%?

Well, not as much as the 40% we do need, but enough to survive on and be relatively happy.

And the distinction between the productive people and the non productive will be blurred, with a gradation between them allowing upward and downward mobility as a person's preferences and demands of life change.

 

[rjs330]

America is built on teaching people that you are only as valuable as how much profit you can provide for a select few and that state of affairs is a natural m, unavoidable and moral imperative.

Not at all America is built on people being able to be self determining. Each person's value is individualistic. It's not based on profit and how much you can provide for a select few. It's on how much you earn for yourself and your loved ones.

It's progressives that value people on what they can provide for a select few. How much money can we take from you to give to those we think should have it.

 

[rjs330]

Its paid by taxes. When I studied or was ill, others paid it. Now I am the one paying the current studends or ill people.

It works as long as enough children are born to keep the age groups in the population even. Thats why the declining birth rate in EU is a problem.


Actually, the USA are not less in debt than the "socialism" in the EU countries.


Thats sad. Thank God I cannot say that about my hypotethical kids. Also my life is much better than the life of my parents.


I understand that the first pilgrims got to the USA to escape religious persecution. Not to be free from rules as such. Any society needs rules. Also, not to mention that just few nationalities were free in America until recently.

You are right about the USAs debt. We are very concerned about it. It's because we have left the system that was supposed to be in place. We are not socialist yet. But the left has been moving us in that direction. And the republicans have learned that giving away money is a good way to get votes. They learned that from the democrats. And now the Democrats want to continue to give away money to more and more people. We have welfare and we have corporate welfare. And it is leaving our kids.with a pile of debt and now a large inflation.

If you would read the declaration of independence it is NOT just about religion. It's about government control. And if you would study about the founding of our government and constitution you will find they had a real.concern about government control. They didn't tax the bejeebers out of people. Just to give it away to other people.

 

[rjs330]

When I said only a "very few" I was referring to people who are lazy, not people who are having difficulty earning money. Again you are conflating hard work with monetary success. Hard work is necessary but not sufficient for monetary success. Most people have the will to work hard. But despite having the will, they often do not have the success. Those that do are the lucky ones.

Hard work IS the way to monetary success. It's not luck. But you have to pursue the wealth you seek. You will never get wealthy if you spend your whole life working hard doing dishes. Nor should you. You won't ever be wealthy being a police officer or a grade school teacher. Wealth is something you have to pursue with making the choices to get there. And most people are not willing to do that. They are perfectly happy with where they are and what they are doing. They don't need or want wealth. They find satisfaction with their own pursuits.

It's not luck, it's determination and choosing to do the things that are necessary to get there.

 

[rjs330]

When you say it is immoral for Government to demand that you pay taxes and then spend that money on something that does not benefit you, I can come up with many examples to the contrary. Building a park with basketball courts is just one tiny example. The idea that taxes is stealing is just an extreme libertarian talking point.

Still not the same thing at all. Your talking about taking money from those who earned it to give to INDIVIDUALS who didn't. It's not remotely the same as building a neighborhood park.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Still not the same thing at all. Your talking about taking money from those who earned it to give to INDIVIDUALS who didn't. It's not remotely the same as building a neighborhood park.

Are you saying taxation is theft?