Is there a break in Daniel's 70 weeks? (Daniel 9:26)

[Anto9us]

"Find one person that the scripture says lost their salvation."

poor old Judas

so long Judas

Incidentally - were the disciples LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to elect Matthias as a replacement?

or was that just something "of man"?

Do we ever hear of Matthias DOING ANYTHING?

was Paul really the "replacement disciple" or are there some

SECRET WORKS OF MATTHIAS that we should look for?

 

[ebedmelech]

I have dealt with each point you have made in the past, as I am dealing with the point you are making now.

No. Really you haven't. You simply try to deal with them...but you don't.

To the points you *try* to make:

This point covers BOTH Peter and Paul, for Paul wrote Colossians 1:23.

So far the example of Peter and Paul have been shown to be saved because their faith continued and remained.

The only way to the Father is through Jesus, faith in Him and obedience to the Gospel.

The ONLY way you have faith is through salvation, you receive the Holy Spirit which seals you to God and empowers you to live for him. Without the Holy Spirit, you fail.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end. Hebrews 6:4-11

This is not salvation though...pay articular attention to verse 6. That verse is telling you those who fall away are not saved. That's why it says "But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, AND THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION."

"Falling away" does NOT accompany salvation...

[/B] 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

"If the righteous one is scarcely saved,...


For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:14


9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9


Brother, I don't know who taught you the Gospel you teach here, but I would encourage you consider what these scriptures teach.


JLB

Here again you don't have a point. Judgement begins at the house of God because everyone in the house is not saved. That's why Jesus said "let the wheat and the tares grow together". When He comes as judge he'll separate the true believers from the false.

So what I encourage you to do, is what you said..."TAKE THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD", because you're certainly not doing that.

Did David suffer as a murderer and adulterer? Yes. Is David saved? Yes! What did Nathan say to David?..."THE LORD HAS PUT AWAY YOUR SIN". WHat happened after that? Because of his sin David reaped what he sowed. THE SWORD NEVER DEPARTED HIS HOUSE...that's called God's chatisement of His own!!!

You need to stop trying to be God with salvation...and leave it to God.

Don't confuse the scriptures encouraging you to walk as a believer should, using verses that you *think* teach you "keep yourself saved" JLB...because you don't.

You as a believer can grieve the Holy Spirit by willfully sinning. As I said earlier, Hebrews 12:4-12 teaches us that God will chastise disobedient believers.

When God saved you, HE SEALED YOU FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. That would be Ephesians 4:30:
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Do you know what happens when God seals you? It's a done deal!!!

This is my last word on the matter...believe as you want but the fact is when you get through doing all you can do in obedience to God what does Paul say?:
Philippians 2:13, 14:
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

This is what we find constantly through the scriptures...IN ALL THAT WE DO we find out that it comes back to GOD WORKING IN US!!!

 

[ebedmelech]

well, maybe it's a multi-fold prophesy.
folks argue this or that all the time...
what if each side is partially right
you've been at it with a few folks lately...
you are stubborn lol.

Actually Zeke i'm not being stubborn. This is what's missing...this is not a twofold prophecy. What is is is God's pattern in judgment and blessing. Look at this:

God dealt with Judah by sending them into captivity SEVENTY YEARS...because they violated 10 sabbath years which is SEVENTY

God next deals with Israel using "SEVENTY SEVENS" or weeks of years.

i'm trying to form an opinion still...starting to lean one way...

i'm STILL a futurist, at least for now, but....

I'm still a futurist...but only when it comes to Christ return. When it comes to Daniel 9 nothing is future.

the "new to me" contention is that the 70 weeks are literally Christ's length of teaching
chronologically through the gospels
in which everything in v24 gets fulfilled
I am not alone with that thought either.
it fits perfect with v24.

after we realize what Messiah will do, and how long it will take Him,
we are going to be told WHEN Christ comes (came)
we are told to know verse 25's meaning.

it is about from the time when Jerusalem is commanded to be set back up,
until Messiah is born

it's still about Jesus, but it's about his birth
the end of the 62 = his birth

this prophesy (v25) was understood as the timing of His birth
by good and bad folk alike.
remember the wise men commissioned to seek the King
and bring Him gifts at the appointed time

remember the baby boys were being killed by Caesar,
why baby Jesus went to Egypt


then move to v26
about Jesus being cut off after the 62 part of v25 (after His birth obv)
and about the future (to Daniel) destruction of the temple in 70ad

and also, about what happens at the end, wars etc.
is this end part still about the temple in 70 ad,
or does it open up a futuristic interpretation?

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined
​

then on to v27, the one really under debate

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
​

so far we have the following;

v24...70 literal weeks (about His ministry's length)
v25...7+62 weeks of years (from Judah's commandment to go back, till Messiah)
v26...after 62 weeks, Messiah's death, temple destroyed
v27...1 week with a midst

so, about this 1 week with a midst (v27)
we are introduced to a seperate week in v27, than before it, are we not?
and we are only ever given info about 1/2 of it

but I see both points, yours and futurists...
per yours, this is again seems to be speaking about Jesus and the cross. (midst)

but,

certain futuristic interp's gains strength with the thought being that
the conclusion (2nd half) of the week with a midst, is yet future,
ending with the 1/2 week of years mentioned in Rev 1260 days/42 months
and also because when reading the scroll from Isaiah,
Jesus stopped after reading the acceptable year of the Lord part
and did not read the vengeance part, saving it for later

so maybe the midst was indeed His death,
but the remainder was not about Steven's death,
but rather it's end is at His vengeance at His 2nd Coming

also, do u believe Jesus was referencing v27 when He spoke of the A of D?

When he says "seventy weeks" it literally means "seventy sevens" or weeks of years. Daniels prophecy applies in "weeks of years".

God is dealing in terms of "sabbatical years" in the prophecy and it points directly to Christ as our "sabbath rest".

 

[ebedmelech]

duplicate post

 

[ebedmelech]

"Find one person that the scripture says lost their salvation."

poor old Judas

so long Judas

Incidentally - were the disciples LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to elect Matthias as a replacement?

or was that just something "of man"?

Do we ever hear of Matthias DOING ANYTHING?

was Paul really the "replacement disciple" or are there some

SECRET WORKS OF MATTHIAS that we should look for?

Does the scripture say they were wrong to appoint Matthias? Nope!

Did they pray before Matthias was selected? Yes!

Does the scripture say "The lot is cast but every decision is from the Lord (Proverbs 16:33)? Yes!

Did the lot fall on Matthias? Yes!

Does anything in the scripture say they did wrong? No!

There's your answer...

 

[joeboonda]

I voted yes. The last week of seven years is the Tribulation where God fulfills his promises to Israel.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, Ephesians 2:10 doesn't mean that true believers will automatically perform good works. For while God makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), he doesn't take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom he forces to dance across the stage as he pulls on their strings. Instead, he leaves them as his real children with free will. And so they have to choose every day to deny themselves, take up their crosses, and follow Jesus to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

You keep making it clear that you don't believe in once-saved-always-saved doctrine, but rather, you believe in some "ultimate salvation" instead. And while it is true that OSAS is not taught or spelled out in the Bible in so many words, yet God has promised to save all those who call on His name, those who believe, receive and confess Christ' death and His resurrection. However, not all of these saved will receive this self-made term you call ultimate salvation. The trouble is that you continue to confuse salvation with the rewards that believers will receive for their works.

There's no such thing as "ultimate salvation." But your post-trib interpretation makes it appear as if there is only one reward and/or one class of believer. But there are actually three different rewards and there will be two classes of saints that return with the Lord at the second coming, and the other third class will be subjects and/or ruled over by the saints when they return w/ Christ.

Christ called these first two classes the greatest and the least in the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 5:19). The first two rewards can be seen as the objects that shine in 1 Cor. 3:12-15, precious metals (gold & silver), and precious stones, however, the third does not shine at all and is consumed by fire (wood, hay & stubble). The first two will be determined at Christ' appearing (gathering of the elect) in the clouds when the trumpet sounds. However, the third and final reward for believers will be determined at His second coming to the earth, when He comes to judge the inhabitants of the earth (sheep & goats), which will reveal who will enter the millennial kingdom in their mortality.

Christ warned us all to be ready and only the doers of His commands will be ready (Matt. 24:46-47). These are His faithful servants, but the lazy servants (Matt. 24:48-50) will be busy doing other things and won't be ready, so they will be left. It's important to know that judgment begins with the house of God (1 Peter 4:17). So when Christ comes like a thief, He will break up the house, cutting His body asunder (into two parts) verse 51. This was His explanation after telling us how "two will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left; two women grinding at the mill, one will be taken and the other left" (Matt. 24:40-41). And just to make sure we understand that only half of the church will be ready when He appears, He emphasized it again in the next parable, ten virgins (5 out of 10 were ready).

Those believers that were left (not ready) will be cast into the outer darkness, which means that they will be left in this world, where Satan has been and still is the prince of this dark world and they will be purified or refined like gold and silver in the fire (martyred - mark of the beast). They will re-enter the kingdom again, but only after they are killed and their souls will be seen under the altar in heaven. These martyrs are the least in the kingdom, as they receive some punishment for not being ready and/or for doing their own thing instead of obeying their Lord's commands. Their punishment, however, is not nearly as severe as the third group of believers we see below.

On the other hand, the sheep (believers who fall away) will be beat with many stripes, as they will want to die, but death will flee from them. Unlike the martyrs who were allowed to re-enter the kingdom, the sheep will not be allowed re-entry. They won't return with the Lord with glorified bodies. All of their works (rewards) will be burned up, but they will still be saved, yet only as one running through the flames. They will be subject to the saints, who will return with Christ and reign over the sheep in the millennium. Finally, the judgment of the nations will take place at the second coming, when the sheep and goats will be judged based on how they treat or minister unto the least of Christ' brethren (martyrs). The goats are the gentile nations that will gather around Israel and attack Christ' army (Armageddon), including everyone that takes the mark of the beast as well, as all of these will meet their doom. Then the sheep (gentile nation survivors) will remain in their mortal bodies and enter into the millennial kingdom and re-populate the earth, along with the remnant of Jews that flee to the mountains after the abomination of desolation.

Naturally, this doesn't fit your standard post-trib interpretation, but it is precisely the way Christ layed it all out when He answered His disciples question in Matt. 24:3...

Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?

I'm not at all opposed to the post-trib position, because that's precisely when the sign of the Son of man appears (Matt. 24:29-31). But it's also important to realize that those days will be shortened for the sake of the elect, and that the gathering must also occur before God's wrath, just like it was in the days of Noah (Matt. 24:36-39). Also, the gathering of the elect is the rapture of those who are ready when the sign of the Son of man appears in the clouds. It is not both, the rapture and the second coming to the earth, because the second coming won't follow immediately, as those who are ready will be going to the wedding supper (Luke 12:37-48).

Again, there are only two ways for believers who are alive at that time to enter into the kingdom of heaven (see passages below).

Revelation 19:9
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 14:13
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

Our salvation will not be judged, but our works will be.

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[JLB777]

No. Really you haven't. You simply try to deal with them...but you don't.

To the points you *try* to make:

The ONLY way you have faith is through salvation, you receive the Holy Spirit which seals you to God and empowers you to live for him. Without the Holy Spirit, you fail.


This is not salvation though...pay articular attention to verse 6. That verse is telling you those who fall away are not saved. That's why it says "But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, AND THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION."

"Falling away" does NOT accompany salvation...


Here again you don't have a point. Judgement begins at the house of God because everyone in the house is not saved. That's why Jesus said "let the wheat and the tares grow together". When He comes as judge he'll separate the true believers from the false.

So what I encourage you to do, is what you said..."TAKE THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD", because you're certainly not doing that.

Did David suffer as a murderer and adulterer? Yes. Is David saved? Yes! What did Nathan say to David?..."THE LORD HAS PUT AWAY YOUR SIN". WHat happened after that? Because of his sin David reaped what he sowed. THE SWORD NEVER DEPARTED HIS HOUSE...that's called God's chatisement of His own!!!

You need to stop trying to be God with salvation...and leave it to God.

Don't confuse the scriptures encouraging you to walk as a believer should, using verses that you *think* teach you "keep yourself saved" JLB...because you don't.

You as a believer can grieve the Holy Spirit by willfully sinning. As I said earlier, Hebrews 12:4-12 teaches us that God will chastise disobedient believers.

When God saved you, HE SEALED YOU FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. That would be Ephesians 4:30:
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Do you know what happens when God seals you? It's a done deal!!!

This is my last word on the matter...believe as you want but the fact is when you get through doing all you can do in obedience to God what does Paul say?:
Philippians 2:13, 14:
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

This is what we find constantly through the scriptures...IN ALL THAT WE DO we find out that it comes back to GOD WORKING IN US!!!

The ONLY way you have faith is through salvation, you receive the Holy Spirit which seals you to God and empowers you to live for him. Without the Holy Spirit, you fail.

You have it backwards again.

The only way you have salvation is through faith.

The evidence that you have true faith is obedience.

Obedience is the standard of righteousness, faith and Love.

All three of these have a common denominator, which is obedience.

Faith comes by hearing God.

Obeying God is what declares righteousness.


JLB

 

[ebedmelech]

You have it backwards again.

The only way you have salvation is through faith.

The evidence that you have true faith is obedience.

Obedience is the standard of righteousness, faith and Love.

All three of these have a common denominator, which is obedience.

Faith comes by hearing God.

Obeying God is what declares righteousness.


JLB

Romans 5:20, 21;
20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The more you try, the more you dig a hole. Righteousness is THROUGH Jesus Christ...He is the ONLY one to live a righteous life. All your righteousnesses are filthy rags!

When you learn that...you'll be free. This is not saying we as Christians should not live life in obedience to Christ...but if you think doing so "keeps you saved" you're wrong.

The only way one is saved is through Christ. The interesting point ih you that think one can lose salvation is these two points:

1. You can;t point to anyone who ever lost salvation.

2. You can point to any scripture say WHEN one loses salvation.

You believe something you CANNOT prove from scripture.

 

[JLB777]

Romans 5:20, 21;
20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The more you try, the more you dig a hole. Righteousness is THROUGH Jesus Christ...He is the ONLY one to live a righteous life. All your righteousnesses are filthy rags!

When you learn that...you'll be free. This is not saying we as Christians should not live life in obedience to Christ...but if you think doing so "keeps you saved" you're wrong.

The only way one is saved is through Christ. The interesting point ih you that think one can lose salvation is these two points:

1. You can;t point to anyone who ever lost salvation.

2. You can point to any scripture say WHEN one loses salvation.

You believe something you CANNOT prove from scripture.

Can you prove from scripture that your name is written in the book of life?

You believe something you can't prove from scripture.


Your reasoning is akin to a kindergarten thought process.

The only thing that determines true faith is obedience.

The only thing that determines righteousness is obedience.

Only through obeying the Gospel does one have salvation.

Only through faith is salvation realized.


JLB

 

[ebedmelech]

Can you prove from scripture that your name is written in the book of life?

You believe something you can't prove from scripture.

I have the witness of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

Your reasoning is akin to a kindergarten thought process.

The only thing that determines true faith is obedience.

The only thing that determines righteousness is obedience.

Only through obeying the Gospel does one have salvation.

Only through faith is salvation realized.
JLB

If what you're saying is true...then why did Christ go to the cross? If it's your righteousness Christ died in vain.

Do yourself a favor and search out "righteousness"...perhaps if you read every verse you might get the message JLB.

You're trying but you keep missing the mark. When you meet Jesus...he'll tell you about it.

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 178:

Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Romans 8:29, 30:
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Those verses relate to election, not OSAS.

The elect are those individuals who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

ebedmelech said in post 178:

Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 1:6 does mean that God will complete the work that he has begun in saved people. But other passages show that he will do this only if they continue to cooperate with him, work along with him (1 Corinthians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12, Philippians 3:12-14), and don't wrongly employ their free will to, for example, become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

*******

ebedmelech said in post 179:

...find "initial salvation" in the scriptures...

The ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

In the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation that Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, whereas ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5) and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal bodies into immortal, physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:16), just like the immortal, physical body that he obtained at his resurrection (Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they're actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they're actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born-again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there's no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there's no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. Just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they're to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

ebedmelech said in post 179:

Find someone who lost salvation in the scriptures...you can't Bible2.

You used Judas...he was never saved, Jesus made no bones about it. Judas was chosen "that the scripture might be fulfilled". He made it clear when He said "Have I not chosen you and one of you is a devil."

Note that nothing requires that Judas was never saved, that he wasn't chosen and saved before he wrongly employed his free will to become a devil.

*******

ebedmelech said in post 182:

This is not salvation though...pay articular attention to verse 6. That verse is telling you those who fall away are not saved.

Hebrews 6:6
If they shall fall away, [it's impossible] to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Note that Hebrews 6:6 doesn't deny that saved people can fall away, for it only refers to apostate believers being unable to be "renewed" "again" to repentance, like they repented when they were saved. And Hebrews 6:6 only refers to apostate believers being unable to crucify to themselves the Son of God "afresh", in the sense of a 2nd time, after they had received salvation through belief in Jesus' crucifixion for their sins the first time.

ebedmelech said in post 182:

That's why it says "But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, AND THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION."

Hebrews 6:9 simply means that the writer of the book of Hebrews was persuaded that the first century AD believers he was originally addressing in his letter weren't apostate.

ebedmelech said in post 182:

"Falling away" does NOT accompany salvation...

It can occur subsequent to salvation. For Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that even saved people, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other scriptures show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, saved people can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and they instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he completely renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in order to keep from being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense during the future tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take control of the earth and make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) and worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if they'd become initially saved before, will end up suffering punishment in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before doing these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of saved people ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the coming worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

ebedmelech said in post 182:

That would be Ephesians 4:30:
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The day of redemption in Ephesians 4:30 refers to when, at Jesus' 2nd coming, obedient believers' bodies will be redeemed (Romans 8:23-25) by being resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal, flesh and bone bodies like Jesus' was resurrected into (Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21).

Ephesians 4:30 doesn't require that every initially saved person will receive ultimate salvation on the day of redemption, for some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That's why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

ebedmelech said in post 182:

Philippians 2:13, 14:
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

While God makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), he doesn't take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom he forces to dance across the stage as he pulls on their strings. Instead, he leaves them as his real children with free will. And so they have to choose every day to deny themselves, take up their crosses, and follow Jesus to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

 

[Bible2]

rollinTHUNDER said in post 187:

Christ warned us all to be ready and only the doers of His commands will be ready (Matt. 24:46-47).

Are you saying that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture? If so, note that nothing in scripture requires that the entire church won't be raptured at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

rollinTHUNDER said in post 187:

The first two rewards can be seen as the objects that shine in 1 Cor. 3:12-15, precious metals (gold & silver), and precious stones, however, the third does not shine at all and is consumed by fire (wood, hay & stubble).

1 Corinthians 3:15 refers only to the loss of reward for the work of spiritually building up a church congregation (1 Corinthians 3:8-17), if that work is done in a faulty manner by focusing on the merely-temporal "wood, hay, stubble" (1 Corinthians 3:12) of human, worldly wisdom (1 Corinthians 3:18-20) and the glorying in human leaders of the church (1 Corinthians 3:4,21), instead of focusing on Jesus and the everlasting wisdom of his Word (1 Corinthians 2:2 to 3:23; 1 Peter 1:23-25). 1 Corinthians 3:15 isn't contradicting the fact that if a saved person, whether a church builder or not, wrongly employs his free will to stop doing any good works whatsoever, to become utterly lazy without repentance, he will in the end lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a,6). He will obtain ultimate salvation only if he patiently continues in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24).

rollinTHUNDER said in post 187:

The first two will be determined at Christ' appearing (gathering of the elect) in the clouds when the trumpet sounds.

Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

~

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they'd held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

rollinTHUNDER said in post 187:

But there are actually three different rewards and there will be two classes of saints that return with the Lord at the second coming, and the other third class will be subjects and/or ruled over by the saints when they return w/ Christ.

Regarding saints returning "with" Jesus at his 2nd coming, 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

rollinTHUNDER said in post 187:

However, the third and final reward for believers will be determined at His second coming to the earth, when He comes to judge the inhabitants of the earth (sheep & goats), which will reveal who will enter the millennial kingdom in their mortality.

Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to the "nations" being judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to the unsaved being sent (at the time of Matthew 25:41,46) into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment would include those who became believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

rollinTHUNDER said in post 187:

These are His faithful servants, but the lazy servants (Matt. 24:48-50) will be busy doing other things and won't be ready, so they will be left.

Regarding "they will be left", are you thinking of Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of church to bring his 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

 

[Bible2]

rollinTHUNDER said in post 187:

And just to make sure we understand that only half of the church will be ready when He appears, He emphasized it again in the next parable, ten virgins (5 out of 10 were ready).

The 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6, "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

rollinTHUNDER said in post 187:

Naturally, this doesn't fit your standard post-trib interpretation, but it is precisely the way Christ layed it all out when He answered His disciples question in Matt. 24:3...

Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?

While the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur immediately at his 2nd coming, or when it would occur, just as he didn't tell them many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that he would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation, that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

rollinTHUNDER said in post 187:

I'm not at all opposed to the post-trib position, because that's precisely when the sign of the Son of man appears (Matt. 24:29-31).

The "sign of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:30a), if it isn't the sign of the Cross, can be the appearance of Jesus himself (Luke 11:29-30) in the sky at his 2nd coming, when "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30b). Before he lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12), he could circle the globe in the sky so that everyone will be able to see his 2nd coming with their own eyes, as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27,30b require. Or most people could see his 2nd coming via a live breaking news video feed to their cell phone, computer, or television. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: If Jesus' 2nd coming isn't obvious to everyone at the same time, then it's not really Jesus. Another test is that the church's bodily resurrection, and then its gathering together (rapture) to hold a meeting in the sky with the returned Jesus, have to occur at the 2nd coming of the real Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

rollinTHUNDER said in post 187:

But it's also important to realize that those days will be shortened for the sake of the elect, and that the gathering must also occur before God's wrath, just like it was in the days of Noah (Matt. 24:36-39).

Regarding "those days will be shortened", Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, and Mark 13. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

rollinTHUNDER said in post 187:

But it's also important to realize that those days will be shortened for the sake of the elect, and that the gathering must also occur before God's wrath, just like it was in the days of Noah (Matt. 24:36-39).

Regarding "the gathering must also occur before God's wrath", note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[JLB777]

I have the witness of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

If what you're saying is true...then why did Christ go to the cross? If it's your righteousness Christ died in vain.

Do yourself a favor and search out "righteousness"...perhaps if you read every verse you might get the message JLB.

You're trying but you keep missing the mark. When you meet Jesus...he'll tell you about it

.

Brother, that is great. I am glad you have the witness of the Spirit.

However, the point you yourself were making is: If I could show you anyone whose named in the bible that lost their salvation. You slammed me because I believed something that was not written in the scriptures.

So, you believe something that is not written in the scriptures.


The righteousness of God is validated by obedience, not your own righteous, but the righteousness of God.

The standard by which righteousness is validated as true righteousness is obedience.

Faith that has no obedience involved is dead faith. The standard by which faith is validated as a living faith is obedience.


This is basic Christianity 101.

It is no wonder you believe the mess you believe if you are arguing with these basic tenets of the faith.


JLB

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Are you saying that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture? If so, note that nothing in scripture requires that the entire church won't be raptured at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

It's ridiculous trying to discuss anything with you. You always manage to butcher my paragraphs, by always pulling out one single sentence and disregarding the rest of it. Then you proceed to write a never ending book about whatever suits your fancy. I'm not going to waste my time with this nonsense, but I do have one thing I will say. No one who has ever received Christ as their Savior will ever lose their salvation. Not even Satan has the power to pluck any out of Christ' hand, for He will not lose one (John 10:27-29).

Good luck with your "ultimate salvation" theory, you're going to need it.

 

[JLB777]

It's ridiculous trying to discuss anything with you. You always manage to butcher my paragraphs, by always pulling out one single sentence and disregarding the rest of it. Then you proceed to write a never ending book about whatever suits your fancy. I'm not going to waste my time with this nonsense, but I do have one thing I will say. No one who has ever received Christ as their Savior will ever lose their salvation. Not even Satan has the power to pluck any out of Christ' hand, for He will not lose one (John 10:27-29).

Good luck with your "ultimate salvation" theory, you're going to need it.

Thank you brother for your passion.

Please help me to understand what you are saying here with the phrase no one who has received Christ....

I offer the parable of the sower as examples of those who received, yet for one reason or another lost what they received.

Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." Matthew 13:18-23


JLB

 

[ebedmelech]

Brother, that is great. I am glad you have the witness of the Spirit.

However, the point you yourself were making is: If I could show you anyone whose named in the bible that lost their salvation. You slammed me because I believed something that was not written in the scriptures.

So, you believe something that is not written in the scriptures.


The righteousness of God is validated by obedience, not your own righteous, but the righteousness of God.

The standard by which righteousness is validated as true righteousness is obedience.

Faith that has no obedience involved is dead faith. The standard by which faith is validated as a living faith is obedience.


This is basic Christianity 101.

It is no wonder you believe the mess you believe if you are arguing with these basic tenets of the faith.


JLB

Tell you what JLB. I'm going to let this drop right here because it goes away from what this is about which is Daniel 9:26.

There is a "Soteriology" forum here. That's where this subject goes.

If you wish to continue this debate you can PM me or go to "Soteriology" and start a post on it.

 

[ebedmelech]

Those verses relate to election, not OSAS.

Bible2...I have dealt with this moving my reply to Soteriology. You'll find it here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7771707/

This is so this thread on Daniel is no longer derailed.

 

[JLB777]

Tell you what JLB. I'm going to let this drop right here because it goes away from what this is about which is Daniel 9:26.

There is a "Soteriology" forum here. That's where this subject goes.

If you wish to continue this debate you can PM me or go to "Soteriology" and start a post on it.

Daniel 9:26 shows these two events that are named after the 69th week, as well as before the 70th week.

Daniel 9:26 is the key to understanding.


JLB