IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi Marumorose. Welcome to the forums. God kind of said not to dabble in good or evil, but to avoid knowledge of it altogether. Like any other animal we wouldn't be to blame for what comes natural.

But we dabbled and still don't know how to control that knowledge, putting our will ahead of the will of God more often than not. But like you say, as least some seek to not use this knowledge for self benefit but focus on the needs of others.

Where did God say to avoid knowledge of good or evil? I recall him saying, “my people perish for lack of knowledge.”

 

[timothyu]

Where did God say to avoid knowledge of good or evil?

Didn't you get the memo about the tree?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Didn't you get the memo about the tree?

He said not to eat if it, that is not to seek the knowledge THAT WAY. He didn’t say “avoid knowledge.”

 

[timothyu]

He said not to eat if it, that is not to seek the knowledge THAT WAY. He didn’t say “avoid knowledge.”

I'm sorry, I don't follow.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm sorry, I don't follow.

God told them not to eat the fruit of that tree. That’s a clear measurable goal. The knowledge of good and evil can be gotten by other ways, they just needed to ask for it and not take it by doing wrong. Do you see?

 

[timothyu]

Do you see?

His will, not ours.

 

[Chris35]

1As for other matters, brothers and sisters, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. 2For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.

3It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control your own body a in a way that is holy and honorable

Gods will that we learn to control ourself, and live a life pleasing to God.

If you really think about it, even at the start, it was never God's will to control human will, or we would never of been able to eat from the tree in the first place.

 

[witness12]

So you believe God controls human will?

Definitely not. I’m not sure why you and the other man think I said that.

You say this but wbere does He say demons are his servants? Why are the evil condemned if they are unable to do evil unless God actively empowers them? Why is he angry if he just empowered the evil to rape andmurder? Your position dishonors God by making him into he who empowers evil.
You see, I don’t see him doing this at all and I have seen how Godhates evil. He doesn’t hate those he empowers.
When does God call the Devil, “my servant?” Please provide evidence that God sees the Devil as a servant? That He limits or uses the Devil doesn’t make that being his servant. I use a hammer now and again but it’s still not my servant.

“Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:20-21‬ ‭KJV
“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The powers he is speaking of is the principalities and powers of darkness, even the political power ruled by Satan. He says submit to those powers because they have their place. The enemy is the agent of wrath God uses to pour out judgement and when we submit to God’s order then we submit to God. If a criminal resists arrest he fights God. If a righteous man resists the devil he will flee. The righteous is freed from the law, but the one in condemnation has one who accuses him of his fault.

You say this but where does He say demons are his servants? Why are the evil condemned if they are unable to do evil unless God actively empowers them?... He doesn’t hate those he empowers.
When does God call the Devil, “my servant?”

“For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:17‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“Thus says the LORD to Cyrus His anointed, Whom I have taken by the right hand, To subdue nations before him And to loose the loins of kings; To open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: “I will go before you and make the rough places smooth; I will shatter the doors of bronze and cut through their iron bars.

I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭45:1-2, 5-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Dorothy Mae]

1As for other matters, brothers and sisters, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. 2For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.

3It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control your own body a in a way that is holy and honorable

Gods will that we learn to control ourself, and live a life pleasing to God.

If you really think about it, even at the start, it was never God's will to control human will, or we would never of been able to eat from the tree in the first place.

Not sure about the tree but otherwise good answer. Would be better to say it was never God’s will that we never know the difference between good and evil.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Definitely not. I’m not sure why you and the other man think I said that.




“Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:20-21‬ ‭KJV
“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The powers he is speaking of is the principalities and powers of darkness, even the political power ruled by Satan. He says submit to those powers because they have their place. The enemy is the agent of wrath God uses to pour out judgement and when we submit to God’s order then we submit to God. If a criminal resists arrest he fights God. If a righteous man resists the devil he will flee. The righteous is freed from the law, but the one in condemnation has one who accuses him of his fault.





“For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice it says He “raised” him up, not created him. Means God found his man who had made himself into a kind of creature useful, not that God did this.

“Thus says the LORD to Cyrus His anointed, Whom I have taken by the right hand, To subdue nations before him And to loose the loins of kings; To open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: “I will go before you and make the rough places smooth; I will shatter the doors of bronze and cut through their iron bars.

The eyes of the Lord search the earth for people suitable for His purposes. Doesn’t make them his servants. Servant are volunteers.

I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭45:1-2, 5-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Isaiah was also a volunteer.

 

[Francis Drake]

Not sure about the tree but otherwise good answer. Would be better to say it was never God’s will that we never know the difference between good and evil.

Its not about the difference between good and evil, they both come from the tree of death.

There were two trees in the garden.-
The Tree of Life, which represented the Holy Spirit, the only source of life.

And the Tree of knowledge (of both good and evil,) which God said would bring death on them.

Take note, it made no difference whether it was good or evil, eating from the Tree of Knowledge would bring spiritual death and subsequent physical death because it entailed rejecting the Tree of life.
That was Adam's freewill choice.

 

[timothyu]

Take note, it made no difference whether it was good or evil, eating from the Tree of Knowledge would bring spiritual death and subsequent physical death because it entailed rejecting the Tree of life.

Yup. It brought on self awareness (which made us gods like them).

 

[Kermos]

Just remember, especially when siting verses about no one can snatch them out of His hand, that when you see the words "You have given Me" Jesus is only referring to His apostles.

Your assertion is according to your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), akin to free will (Philemon 1:14).

Lord Jesus says about all His own in all time with "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

His words apply to me for I am one of His sheep.

It sounds like you deny being one of His sheep.

Lord Jesus says "you" in John chapters 13-17 to refer to all believers in all time (post in this thread)

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

 

[Kermos]

I've deleted your erroneous interpretation of the above passage to keep to the point.

There is absolutely nothing in this scripture, especially when you look at the context, to indicate the disciples were being called to salvation!

When Jesus said, "You did not choose me, but I chose you!", it was a call to various Jewish believers to leave their fishing nets and other jobs etc. and become his disciples and follow him. They were already Godly believers before they met Jesus, and there is no record of Jesus trying to get them saved.
Additionally, they clearly did have free choice to remain with him or to go.-
John6v66From that time on, many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him. 67So Jesus asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?” 68Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life.

So God is limited by time like man is then?
What happened to "Before Abraham was, I am...."

No, just dumping Calvinist garbage so the scripture gets the light of day.

Et tu, my brother!

Here is true Christian teaching.

In the Bible, the word "know" refers to an intimate relationship, and Jesus, Lord and God, foreknows His own intimately!

Lord Jesus said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so that puts all the choice according to God along with absolutely zero choice for man.

The Apostle Paul wrote "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified" (Romans 8:28-30).

God causes what?

all things to work together

For who?

those who are called

Based on what?

those whom He foreknew

Based also (in conjunction with) what action by God?

He also predestined

To become what?

conformed to the image of His Son

What did God do with those who God established the destiny beforehand (predestined)?

He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified

Therefore "those who are called" referenced in Romans 8:28 comes full circle to "He also called" in Romans 8:30.

The Apostle Paul wrote that God works all these things together, God's foreknowledge and God's predestination and God's calling and God's justification and God's glorification.

Since God knows these things beforehand there can be no deviation.

Since God predestined these things to occur before and there can be no deviation.

GOD CAUSES ALL THESE THINGS PER PAUL.

Paul made no mention of some "future choice" even less so there is no mention of "choice".

Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), so that puts all the choice according to God along with absolutely zero choice for man.

The scripture does not indicate that God looks down some corridor of time.

You vainly attempt to delegitimize the fullness and reduce the context of Romans 8:28-30.

May Lord Jesus Christ open your eyes to His glorious Truth!

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

 

[Kermos]

Then God would not be rendering to each man according to his deeds, He would be rendering to each man according to His choice. Each man’s deeds would be irrelevant and would ultimately be the result of God’s choosing which would also make God the one responsible for each person’s deeds unless of course you believe that man is capable of repentance without being elected by God. If not then God’s expectations are impossible for the unelect to meet and therefore God’s judgement upon the unelect is unjust. Then this becomes a situation of incapability not stubbornness and unwillingness as Paul makes very clear here in Romans 2.

You impose your imagination against the Word of God in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), akin to free will (Philemon 1:14).

Man is damned in his first nature. God causes the new birth in the Holy Spirit that gives man the new nature pleasing to God (post in this thread). Man does nothing - not even the work called "choice" (John 3:3-8, John 15:16, John 15:19).

 

[Kermos]

The word world can refer to many things but is often used to describe the ungodly multitude of man. The context of that statement is intended as those who are worldly cannot receive the Holy Spirit.


World

G2889

Lemma:

κόσμος

Transliteration:

kósmos

Pronounce:

kos'-mos

Part of Speech:

Noun Masculine

Language:

greek

Description:

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

Again, you impose your imagination against the Word of God in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), akin to free will (Philemon 1:14).

Lord Jesus says "I do not ask on behalf of the world" (John 17:9).

You wrote "The context of that statement is intended as those who are worldly cannot receive the Holy Spirit".

Jesus didn't say what you wrote. Jesus prayed about eternal life and keeping God's Word and the Holy Spirit and santification in Truth...

The point, that you desperately try to elude in your self will, is "the world" in John 17:9 is used differently than "the world" in John 3:16.

Jesus uses "the world" in John 17:9 to indicate all people that do not and will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus uses "the world" in John 3:16 to indicate all people that do and will be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the only way a person can believe - as referred to in John 3:16 - is by the work of God (John 6:29).

 

[Kermos]

Not that this is a big deal or anything but I just wanted to point out that the Last Supper ended in chapter 14.

“but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Chapters 15-17 Jesus and His 11 faithful apostles are walking to the olive groves in Gethsemane. Chapter 18 they arrive at their destination where Jesus will be betrayed by Judas.

A closer examination of John 15 actually destroys Calvin’s theology. Eternal security contradicts John 15. The Father cuts off every branch IN CHRIST that does not bear fruit. Jesus tells His 11 faithful apostles to remain in Him which according to Calvin’s theology it would be impossible for them to fail to remain in Christ. The implications in John 15 are overwhelmingly against Calvin’s theology.

Here is true Christian teaching.

Specifically, Lord Jesus said "Get up, let us go from here", but John does not record any movement until AFTER John chapter 17 as recorded in John 18:1 "When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples".

One must be very cautious to avoid adding to the Word of God.

Specifically, the scripture identifies Matthias and Joseph as two men who accompanied the apostles all the time while Jesus walked in and out among the apostles - which includes John chapters 15 - 17.

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13).

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the twelve who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.

One must be very cautious because it is easy for carnal man to try to add to the Scriptue, as you have done with your words "Jesus and His 11 faithful apostles are walking to the olive groves in Gethsemane" trying to limit the audience of John chapters 13-17.

Specifically, Lord Jesus said

2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every [branch] that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither [can] you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing."

So, He says "in Me" in verse 2, verse 4, and verse 5.

When Jesus says "he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit" (John 15:5) is profound.

Jesus did not stop there, He continued with "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) which is nature shattering!

One must be very cautious because it is easy for carnal man to try to add to the Word of God, as you have done within the Word of God in this passage, because the Word of God says "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away" (John 15:2), yet Jesus does not say there ARE branches in Him that do not bear fruit - no - instead He says "he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit" (John 15:5).

Adding to Scripture carries a deadly punishment (Revelation 22:18-19).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

 

[Francis Drake]

Here is true Christian teaching.

You are just pasting the same post you did previously, and its the same nonsense.

In the Bible, the word "know" refers to an intimate relationship, and Jesus, Lord and God, foreknows His own intimately!

True, Jesus does know those who are his.

Lord Jesus said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so that puts all the choice according to God along with absolutely zero choice for man.

There's no indication here that Jesus forced unbelievers to surrender to him. The above simply states that Jesus was chose God fearing fishermen to become his disciples.

And I can't be bothered to go through it again. I expect you'll just keep blindly pasting it up instead of addressing anything properly.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Your assertion is according to your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), akin to free will (Philemon 1:14).

Lord Jesus says about all His own in all time with "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

His words apply to me for I am one of His sheep.

It sounds like you deny being one of His sheep.

Lord Jesus says "you" in John chapters 13-17 to refer to all believers in all time (post in this thread)

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

I only want the truth, and seeing who Jesus is talking about is one thing I need to see, so I don't make the same sad mistake that those who apply OSAS to themselves.

I have been baptized with the Spirit and the very first gift I received was being able to hear His voice. In fact, I never pray for things for myself until He tells me what to pray. I understand that not all His children receive the same gifts, so if you can't literally hear His voice, I'm not going to say you are not chosen and are going to hell.

 

[Kermos]

You are just pasting the same post you did previously, and its the same nonsense.

True, Jesus does know those who are his.

There's no indication here that Jesus forced unbelievers to surrender to him. The above simply states that Jesus was chose God fearing fishermen to become his disciples.

And I can't be bothered to go through it again. I expect you'll just keep blindly pasting it up instead of addressing anything properly.

You keep trying to erase the Truth, and I put it in.

Here is true Christian teaching.

There is no place in New Testament scripture that states man surrenders to God.

In the Bible, the word "know" refers to an intimate relationship, and Jesus, Lord and God, foreknows His own intimately!

Lord Jesus said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so that puts all the choice according to God along with absolutely zero choice for man. This is about salvation; therefore, God saves man without man doing anything not even "choice".

The Apostle Paul wrote "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified" (Romans 8:28-30).

God causes what?

all things to work together

For who?

those who are called

Based on what?

those whom He foreknew

Based also (in conjunction with) what action by God?

He also predestined

To become what?

conformed to the image of His Son

What did God do with those who God established the destiny beforehand (predestined)?

He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified

Therefore "those who are called" referenced in Romans 8:28 comes full circle to "He also called" in Romans 8:30.

The Apostle Paul wrote that God works all these things together, God's foreknowledge and God's predestination and God's calling and God's justification and God's glorification.

Since God knows these things beforehand there can be no deviation.

Since God predestined these things to occur before and there can be no deviation.

GOD CAUSES ALL THESE THINGS PER PAUL.

Paul made no mention of some "future choice" even less so there is no mention of "choice".

Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), so that puts all the choice according to God along with absolutely zero choice for man.

The scripture does not indicate that God looks down some corridor of time.

You vainly attempt to delegitimize the fullness and reduce the context of Romans 8:28-30.

May Lord Jesus Christ open your eyes to His glorious Truth!

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!