IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

[BNR32FAN]

You argue from silence for your imagined support for free will.

The moment that you said "The whole of scripture demonstrates the exercise of freewill, either by God, man, or Satan", you added to the Word of God for there is no place in scripture that states that mankind has a free-will. Adding to the Word of God carries a severe and deadly punishment (Revelation 22:18-19).

REGARDING GENESIS

By the way, in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you miscited the verses of Genesis. It's Genesis chapter 2.

God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)

AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree

AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree

YET a command does not convey ability

BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory

NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"

IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word ki (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. (ki) -- that, for, when)

AND the Hebrew word ki contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when"

THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17

THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17

SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17

REGARDING JOHN 6:66-70

It is written that many, but not all, the disciples departed, so not only to the 12 apostles remain, but also Matthias and Joesph remain as identified by Luke (Acts 1:13, Acts 1:21-23).

The passage does not indicate that only the apostles are chosen by Jesus.

REGARDING FREEWILL

There is no place in the New Testament that indicates man has a free will.

Every time you write that man has a freewill, you oppose that which is written.

REGARDING THE WORD OF GOD

People of the sin nature cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

And yet Calvin’s doctrines weren’t formulated until 1500 years after the church was established and refuted by every single church established by the apostles.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Now, you are subtracting from scripture which carries a deadly penalty (Revelation 22:18-19).

First of all I’m not subtracting anything from scripture and second that verse is in reference to the prophecy in the book of Revelation. You don’t address any of the points I make or even try to answer any of the questions I ask because you can’t.

 

[BNR32FAN]

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

this does not mean that they were present with Jesus and the apostles every minute since Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. You have to understand that the Greek word pas does not always mean all. We’re all in Judea really baptized but John the Baptist? No they weren’t.

 

[Kermos]

But you fail to see the error in this theology. If someone can only believe if God has chosen them then what about the following verses? Let’s read it in the full context shall we?


“so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

Whosoever believes will have eternal life.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Again whosoever believes.

For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now this is very crucial here to take into consideration. If like you say no one can believe unless God enables that person then how can those people be judged according to whether or not they believe if they are incapable of believing unless God has chosen them? How are these people who are not chosen by God justly punishable if they are INCAPABLE of believing? If they are incapable of believing then God’s expectation of them is IMPOSSIBLE for them to accomplish and His judgement upon them would be UNJUST.

This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Those who prefer evil and darkness do not come to the light for fear their deeds will be exposed. Not because God has not enabled them but because of THEIR OWN PREFERENCE. For those who prefer darkness God grants them exactly what they want, they are thrown into darkness where there will be weeping and knashing of teeth.

But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:15-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Those who prefer the light are granted the ability to do good deeds of the Holy Spirit. Their ability is enabled by their choice. Everyone who fears God and does what is right & good is welcomed by God. God does NOT show partiality.

You inject the word "prefer", so you add to scripture which is carries eternal punishment (Revelation 22:18-19).

The Word of God identifiees "actions" (see the word "does" [verse 20] and "practices" and "comes" [verse 21]).

Thus says the Word of God:

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

The Word of God says the ones who believe in verse 16 which is directly tied to the Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). The "whoever believes" are the people that have the "work of God".

God is our believer's merciful Benefactor, and we believers are unworthy beneficiaries (post in this thread)

 

[Kermos]

The Father cuts off every branch IN CHRIST that bears not fruit. Your saying that this is an impossibility which would make this verse completely useless.

You add to the Word of God, so I'm not surprised that you add to that which I write.

I wrote "The parable recorded in Luke 13:6-9 does not indicate that the fig tree IS cut down. This is just like the words of Jesus in John 15:2-2 where Jesus does not say there ARE branches in Him that do not bear fruit - no - instead He says "he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit" (John 15:5)".

You should be very scared in your self will or your free will.

One must be very cautious because it is easy for carnal man to try to add to the Word of God (Revelation 22:18-19).

 

[BNR32FAN]

You inject the word "prefer", so you add to scripture which is carries eternal punishment (Revelation 22:18-19).

The Word of God identifiees "actions" (see the word "does" [verse 20] and "practices" and "comes" [verse 21]).

Thus says the Word of God:

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

The Word of God says the ones who believe in verse 16 which is directly tied to the Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). The "whoever believes" are the people that have the "work of God".

God is our believer's merciful Benefactor, and we believers are unworthy beneficiaries (post in this thread)

Again your quoting the verse out of context my friend.

“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:27-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

WHAT SHALL WE DO so that WE
may work the works of God is the question being asked. So the context is that the work THEY must do is believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You inject the word "prefer", so you add to scripture which is carries eternal punishment (Revelation 22:18-19).

it’s obviously a preference.

“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭NASB

 

[Francis Drake]

You argue from silence for your imagined support for free will.

Scripture is not silent, but very loud on the subject of freewill. But loudness is of no use to someone whose false doctrine makes him stone deaf.

The moment that you said "The whole of scripture demonstrates the exercise of freewill, either by God, man, or Satan", you added to the Word of God for there is no place in scripture that states that mankind has a free-will. Adding to the Word of God carries a severe and deadly punishment (Revelation 22:18-19).

Your hilarious self righteousness is leaking out there Kermos. We are all gonna die, just for not agreeing with you. Gulp.

But just to make it easy for you, here's an example of God demanding men make a freewill choice.-
Josh24v15And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Choose, choose, choose, choose, did you read that Kermos, they were given a choice?

REGARDING GENESIS

By the way, in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you miscited the verses of Genesis. It's Genesis chapter 2.

Yes I made a typo, but how dare you accuse me of having self will Kermos, you insist I don't have freewill and now you accuse me of using it!
Make your mind up man.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You inject the word "prefer", so you add to scripture which is carries eternal punishment (Revelation 22:18-19).

The Word of God identifiees "actions" (see the word "does" [verse 20] and "practices" and "comes" [verse 21]).

Thus says the Word of God:

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

The Word of God says the ones who believe in verse 16 which is directly tied to the Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). The "whoever believes" are the people that have the "work of God".

God is our believer's merciful Benefactor, and we believers are unworthy beneficiaries (post in this thread)

you keep skipping this question and I’ve asked it several times.

Now this is very crucial here to take into consideration. If like you say no one can believe unless God enables that person then how can those people be judged according to whether or not they believe if they are incapable of believing unless God has chosen them? How are these people who are not chosen by God justly punishable if they are INCAPABLE of believing? If they are incapable of believing then God’s expectation of them is IMPOSSIBLE for them to accomplish and His judgement upon them would be UNJUST.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You inject the word "prefer", so you add to scripture which is carries eternal punishment (Revelation 22:18-19).

The Word of God identifiees "actions" (see the word "does" [verse 20] and "practices" and "comes" [verse 21]).

Thus says the Word of God:

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

The Word of God says the ones who believe in verse 16 which is directly tied to the Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). The "whoever believes" are the people that have the "work of God".

God is our believer's merciful Benefactor, and we believers are unworthy beneficiaries (post in this thread)

you skipped post 311 you keep refusing to address this problem with Calvin’s theology.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You add to the Word of God, so I'm not surprised that you add to that which I write.

I wrote "The parable recorded in Luke 13:6-9 does not indicate that the fig tree IS cut down. This is just like the words of Jesus in John 15:2-2 where Jesus does not say there ARE branches in Him that do not bear fruit - no - instead He says "he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit" (John 15:5)".

You should be very scared in your self will or your free will.

One must be very cautious because it is easy for carnal man to try to add to the Word of God (Revelation 22:18-19).

Here’s a list of problems that I’ve come up with that Calvin’s theology brings about.


If God’s election is true then...


1. According to John 3:18 why are we judged according to whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing unless God has chosen us? Hence total depravity.


2. Wouldn’t that ultimately make God responsible for someone’s unbelief if He has not enabled them to believe?


3. Wouldn’t it be unjust for God to judge someone according to whether or not they believe if He has created them as being incapable of believing and has not enabled them to do so?


4. Why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of believing if they are not chosen by God and are incapable of failing to believe if they are chosen by God?


5. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and none to perish. So why would He only elect certain people to be saved and condemn all others giving them no chance for salvation since He has the power to save everyone as per irresistible grace?


6. According to John 3:16-17 God loved the world so much that He sent His Son so the world might be saved through Him, so why would Our loving God only elect certain people for salvation condemning all others?


7. If God’s election is true then eternal security must also be true because according to the doctrine of God’s elect they cannot be chosen and lose their salvation. So according to John 15:2 how can branches who are in Christ be cut off from the vine which is Christ?


8. Why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” even explaining to them the consequences of failing to abide which results in the loss of salvation if they are incapable of failing to abide?


9. In Ephesians 2 Paul is addressing children of God as so stated throughout the chapter, so why does he warn these same children of God in Ephesians 5:1-5 of living a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God?


10. Romans 11:17-23 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted in by God of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity a person is incapable of believing unless they are elected by God. According to Calvin’s doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist God’s grace and election. So how can a person be grafted into the olive tree and later cut off for unbelief if they were incapable of believing to begin with unless they are elected by God and incapable of resisting grace and election?


11. Romans 6:15-16 How can those who are under grace (God’s elect) sin to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death?


12. If they are incapable of sinning to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death what is the purpose of Paul’s statement? Why would he say this if those who are under grace are incapable of becoming slaves to satan and why would he say this to anyone who is not elected by God if they are condemned because they are incapable of being slaves to God?


13. Why did Jesus say “when the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself”?


14. Why does Paul say in Colossians 1:23 that they must “continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel” in order to be presented Holy and blameless without reproach if they are already reconciled to God and are incapable of failing to continue in the faith?


“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”

Colossians 1:21-23 NASB


15. In Genesis 6:5-6 the scriptures say that God was grieved in His heart by the wickedness of man. Why would God be grieved in His heart if He knew that their wickedness was the result of His decision to not choose them for salvation and bestow grace upon them?


“Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.”

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬


16. According to Romans 10:21 God has stretched out His hands to a disobedient obstinate people. Is God stretching out His hands to people He hasn’t elected knowing that they are in total depravity and are incapable of repentance? That wouldn’t make any sense unless they were capable of repenting but were choosing of their own free will to be stubborn. But according to the doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist grace. So if Calvin was correct either these people have been elected by God and are resisting grace or they have not been elected by God and yet God is expecting them to repent while they are incapable of doing so. Either way Calvin’s doctrines aren’t making any sense here.


“But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."”

‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬


17. This next verse speaks for itself.


“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[CharismaticLady]

I suspect you assert there were only 12 disciples, CharismaticLady, which is wrong. There were more than 12 disciples, for example, Luke wrote "And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles" (Luke 6:13); therefore, there were more than twelve, for example Matthais and Joseph who were with them from the beginning (Acts 1:21-23).

I am saying that you can not choose Jesus, CharismaticLady, because this is precisely the words that Lord Jesus used "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Lord Jesus says about all His own in all time with "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

You persist in denial of you being one of Jesus' sheep, and a person with the Holy Spirit does not deny being one of Jesus' sheep.

There were many disciples, but only 12 who were given the office of apostle at the beginning.

 

[timothyu]

It sounds to me that you deny that God created everything.

Just the opposite. Everything which means we and everything created, are God as God is all. That does not makes us separate from but extensions of God Himself with which He can experience Himself. Those who see themselves as outside of God are denying Him the privilege of working and seeing through them. They are non-functioning in the way originally intended when self awareness was not an issue. A repair plan is offered and a new system has been formed. But free will is still in play and those looking to upgrade must do so by choice or they will rust and become obsolete.

 

[Marumorose]

Yes.
Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
If we follow these two commandments, we won't have to worry about what is good or evil

 

[BNR32FAN]

I suspect you assert there were only 12 disciples, CharismaticLady, which is wrong. There were more than 12 disciples, for example, Luke wrote "And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles" (Luke 6:13); therefore, there were more than twelve, for example Matthais and Joseph who were with them from the beginning (Acts 1:21-23).

I am saying that you can not choose Jesus, CharismaticLady, because this is precisely the words that Lord Jesus used "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Lord Jesus says about all His own in all time with "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

You persist in denial of you being one of Jesus' sheep, and a person with the Holy Spirit does not deny being one of Jesus' sheep.

As far as disciples it’s uncertain exactly how many disciples Jesus had. He sent out 70 disciples in Luke 10, many disciples left Jesus in John 6. As far as apostles there were 15. There were the twelve plus Mathias, Paul, and Barnabas. I don’t recall Joseph ever being named as an apostle. To my knowledge he was a disciple.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I am saying that you can not choose Jesus, CharismaticLady, because this is precisely the words that Lord Jesus used "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Nothing about this verse or the context that this verse was spoken even remotely suggests that a person cannot choose Christ. And you accuse us of “adding to scripture”? It’s no secret that Jesus hand picked these 11 men but nothing in the entire chapter suggests that a person is incapable of choosing to accept Christ. That’s an assumption that is not supported in the text my friend.

 

[CharismaticLady]

As far as disciples it’s uncertain exactly how many disciples Jesus had. He sent out 70 disciples in Luke 10, many disciples left Jesus in John 6. As far as apostles there were 15. There were the twelve plus Mathias, Paul, and Barnabas. I don’t recall Joseph ever being named as an apostle. To my knowledge he was a disciple.

I have a problem with the way they chose Mathias. Jesus didn't personally "chose" him. The way they had it rigged, the lot would have had to "naturally, not supernaturally" fall to one of them. Jesus chose Paul, and was the first He, Himself, chose after Judas.

 

[timothyu]

I have a problem with the way they chose Mathias.

They left it up to God. How could anyone saying Trump was chosen by God by way of election and deny Mathias the same?

 

[CharismaticLady]

They left it up to God. How could anyone saying Trump was chosen by God by way of election and deny Mathias the same?

As far as Trump, even Israel saw the paradigm to Cyrus. And another paradigm to Jehu.

When you take three physical straws, and only one is short, how could one not be chosen when pagan gambling was not God's way? Someone getting the short straw was odds, nothing else. Besides they were told to WAIT in Jerusalem for the Holy Spirit. They didn't wait and stay still, they went ahead and acted.

 

[timothyu]

They didn't wait and stay still

For a different purpose. Besides, if Jesus said He would be with them always, then He may have cast the deciding vote.