IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

[Si_monfaith]

Sometimes a hardening of a heart leads fast to their own destruction, seeing that they have rejected the truth and never will accept it. If God knows that they will not accept the truth ever, then hardening their heart will serve in a way to protect God's people in some way. We see this happen in Exodus. Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, and then God hardened his heart giving him more of what he wanted. This action helped to lead the Israelites to go free. Pharaoh may not have done what he did if it was not for an increased hardening of his heart that he set into motion by his own hard heart to begin with. God knew Pharaoh better than he knew himself. Pharaoh ended up destroying himself by his refusal to accept the Lord's terms of setting His people free. Pharaoh did not have to harden his heart in the beginning before God hardened his heart based on him hardening his own heart. Nowhere will you find in Scripture whereby God hardens a person's heart without their initial refusal to hear the things of GOD and or without their hardening their own heart. God does not randomly zap people to have a hard heart based on nothing that they did prior.

In fact, what is the point of hardening a person's heart further if they are incapable of hearing the truth, and or understanding it? It makes no sense to harden dead men's hearts if they are already hard hearted and incapable of understanding truth.

So you agree God indeed controls human will by hardening it?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Of course God knows all things. But knowing about what will happen does not equate with God forcing them to do such a thing. God can know about an event that will happen, it does not mean He agrees with that event that takes place (even though He may allow for it to happen). It's why there will be a judgment. God will judge men later. But in Calvinism, the judgment does not really make any sense. It would be like creating a robot to kill and murder, and then later putting that robot on trial for murder and to punish the robot (even though that is what the creator designed it to do). In other words, in Calvinism, the judgment is not really a judgment but it is a joke or a farce. It's not really real because God is the one who has placed them there to be punished. Do you think a court trial that would convict a person for their crime would be wrong if the person did not actually had any control over what they did. For example: If the person was mind controlled or hypnotized to do a particular crime and they have no memory of the event, would it be fair to punish them? In your view, they must be punished and that must be fair.

If God foreknows human sin, why did He go ahead and create the world & end up judging it for the acts of sins?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Calvinists see the words "predestined" and "elect" and they interject their own Calvinistic bias into those words. Nowhere does Scripture define these words as Calvinists do.

Also, keep reading past Romans 9:29. The point here is about Israel's rejection of their Messiah and how God. They are stuck in their false Pharisee religion that attempts to make salvation all about the Law with very little to no grace (and a rejection of their Messiah that they missed). Re-read the whole of Romans 9 again with Israel in focus and their rejection of the Messiah and the chapter becomes more clear. Do not read it with a Calvinist bias. Read the chapter in light of the context. The context of Romans 9 is that it is talking about Israel and how they rejected God's grace through faith in Jesus.

Romans :16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Perhaps you missed reading the above which says not human will but His will.

 

[Si_monfaith]

This is wrong. God is good (Matthew 19:17). There is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5). God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).



*Sigh* I am not saying that there may not have been other occurrences throughout human history where God prevents a person from sinning as a part of God's greater plan for good. The point here is that others sin as a part of God's permissive will, and not as something that He has decreed must take place. God does not want people to sin because God is holy, righteous, and good. He that commits sin is of the devil. If God desired man to sin (as a part of His decree) in certain cases, then God would be guilty for breaking His own rules. But such a thing is not possible because God is good, and holy, and perfect and trust worthy.



I am aware of this. I don't see what that has to do with the point you are making here. I believe Adam and Eve were like golden retrievers before the Fall. I believe they were generally good natured because God said His creation was good, but that does not mean they were not capable of making an error in judgment. This does not mean God would allow Adam and Eve to do evil things that they would not be aware of. I think God would have protected them if they kept the one command. This is not a case for Calvinism because Adam and Eve had to keep God's command of their own free will. God being upset with them shows that God did not want them to sin. God allowed them to sin as a part of His permissive will, and not as some kind of decree that they must sin. God is good. You gotta believe that. God cannot decree evil or sin.

God's plan to redeem from sin existed even before Adam & Eve could sin (1Peter1:18-20).

You mean to say human sin is out of God's plan?

 

[Si_monfaith]

It is talking about Jerusalem. Just read the beginning of the verse. He says, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem." He is not addressing God the Father here or anyone else, but Jerusalem. But of course, this verse is problematic for Calvinism, and so you have to find a work around so as to make it say something else so as to fit Calvinism.

Jesus talks about gathering the children not jerusalem which denotes the leaders.

You wrongly assume He came to gather the leaders.

 

[Si_monfaith]

I hope I can help you. I have seen this truth in the Spirit.

A man can do nothing apart from God, and a man does what is in his heart. God’s word went forth as an ongoing work on the 7th day and that was the rest He took. He rested from His own works, and His word then upheld all things.

His word is still active. Does not wisdom cry aloud in the streets? Does she not cry in the paths of the places? His word causes what is in a man’s heart to unfold. A man is deceived thinking he is the one breathing when it is God who gives breath to all.

I have seen it very powerfully, driving down the highway, I saw the people in their cars being moved by the wind. They thought they were the ones driving on their own accord but God allows them to do what they will to do in their heart.

Our hope is Christ Jesus - God manifesting Himself in our world for direct intervention. We pray to God that His right arm saves us and His word leads us on the path of eternal life.

So you believe God controls human will?

 

[Francis Drake]

I disagree.

His word is our life. His disciples confessed they had no where else to go, for he had the words of eternal life.

Therefore Peter and his friends made the free choice to remain, whilst others made the free choice to walk away from Jesus.
Neither Jesus, nor God forced them to stay. Knowing who will stay, and who will go is not the same as forcing them!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Job 42:2 "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee".

So you mean to say God's thought can be thwarted?

How can anyone’s THOUGHTS be thwarted?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Are you confusing between God's decree & God's command?

Not at all.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You have to first prove repentance is a free act of human will.

If the human will is free from active external influencing & cannot be made to take a particular decision, why did the Holy Spirit record saying, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted (John12:40)".

Here’s Jesus’ words.

“I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I don’t think it gets any more clear than this.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If the human will is free from active external influencing & cannot be made to take a particular decision, why did the Holy Spirit record saying, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted (John12:40)".

Cause the method He chooses is not actively doing so. He speaks so much they stop up their ears and shut their eyes.

 

[Eha]

If the human will is free from active external influencing & cannot be made to take a particular decision, why did the Holy Spirit record saying, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted (John12:40)".

i know what that means.
just little hint to others - who eyes were blinded and why?
but for you i have no answers left.
God doesnt teas anyone, and as good children, we should learn from Him.
Even though you know the answer, you keep going and that is teasing.
Final message from Father, that i got for you:
"25 For to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. Mark 4"
end of discussion, no explanations.

 

[BNR32FAN]

why did the Holy Spirit record saying, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted (John12:40)".

This is explained in a little more detail in Romans 11.

“For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, " THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." " THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:25-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God's plan to redeem from sin existed even before Adam & Eve could sin (1Peter1:18-20).

You mean to say human sin is out of God's plan?

God didn’t plan/intend for man to sin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If the human will is free from active external influencing & cannot be made to take a particular decision, why did the Holy Spirit record saying, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted (John12:40)".

If human will is free from external influences then we can never learn anything from anyone or any event external to us. Most of us think external influences (learning from others) prevents us from making some fairly bad choices in life. We are glad we are not so stubborn.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If God foreknows human sin, why did He go ahead and create the world & end up judging it for the acts of sins?

The answer to this can be understood but there are prerequisites just like some college classes have prerequisites. Without some basic understanding one won’t get it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Romans :16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Perhaps you missed reading the above which says not human will but His will.

Then why did Peter (and Jesus) tell people to repent? Why didn’t they sit back, enjoy life telling themselves “if it’s God’s will men will be saved and nothing a man can do will change that?”

 

[Marumorose]

Is the will of humans controlled by God?

No. God gave us a choice. To be good or evil.

 

[timothyu]

If the human will is free from active external influencing & cannot be made to take a particular decision, why did the Holy Spirit record saying, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted (John12:40)".

So that means Eve had no choice but to screw up.

 

[timothyu]

No. God gave us a choice. To be good or evil.

Hi Marumorose. Welcome to the forums. God kind of said not to dabble in good or evil, but to avoid knowledge of it altogether. Like any other animal we wouldn't be to blame for what comes natural.

But we dabbled and still don't know how to control that knowledge, putting our will ahead of the will of God more often than not. But like you say, as least some seek to not use this knowledge for self benefit but focus on the needs of others.