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Featured Is the Sabbath Commandment proof that the TCs are not for Christians?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Saint Steven, Sep 7, 2018.

  1. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    Actually Sabbath mean 'to rest'.
    Saturday comes from the Greco-Roman name for the deity Cronus Saturn.

    Saturday is actually the FIRST day of the week NOT the SEVENTH:
    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...irst-day-of-the-week-not-the-seventh.8080841/
     
  2. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    Saturday is actually the FIRST day of the week NOT the SEVENTH:
    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...irst-day-of-the-week-not-the-seventh.8080841/
     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Who wrote the book of Genesis? (Moses) When was it written? (in his lifetime) Who knew about seventh day before God told Moses? (hard to say) Was there a directive for humankind in Genesis? (nope) Is there evidence of any human observing the Sabbath before it was introduced in Exodus chapter sixteen? (you tell me)
     
  4. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Are you claiming that I am not "a part of His Kingdom"?
     
  5. wonderkins

    wonderkins Member

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    Are you asking this because you want to commit one of the commandments? We don't live by the law, but do you really want to commit one? Which one? Murder, theft, make false idols?
     
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Romans 6:14-15
    For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
     
  7. TR Outrider

    TR Outrider New Member

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    Read Romans Chapter 11 to understand how the gentiles are grafted into the House of Israel in the parable of the wild olive branch. Christ is only returning for Israel so you want to make sure you are in the House of Israel when He returns. Once a gentile accepts Jesus Christ as his lord and savior that gentile is grafted into the natural olive tree that is the House of Israel. Good news yes? Not good news for those who do not want to keep His commandments. How are we told to love God and Christ? Keep His Commandments. This is said multiple times in the new testament and multiple times in the old testament. The new covenant is all about the Commandments. They shall be written on our hearts and our minds so we cannot make the same mistakes we did in the past before the flood. They are written in your mind and your heart, that leaves us absolutely no excuse for not loving God the way He desires.
     
  8. TR Outrider

    TR Outrider New Member

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    Peter meant we are not under the law of Sin and Death, the curse put on Adam in the beginning sentencing him and the rest of the world to death. With the sacrifice of Christ we were given the only means by which we can escape that curse. Grace. But Christ also says if we love him Keep His Commandments. Not sure why that is so hard.
     
  9. TR Outrider

    TR Outrider New Member

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    Man cannot change, add too or override God's word!!! "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this Book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this Book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the Book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this Book" Revelation 22:18-19.
     
  10. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Thanks for that information :) The thread does seem to be more concerned with how the Sabbath day of rest came to be done away with. Do you have any information about that, to contradict what the article says (re: Constantine's work on Christianity in the fourth century?).
     
  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    When Jesus said to keep his commands, he was obviously not talking about the Ten Commandments. Not sure why that is so hard to understand.
     
  12. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Well, it is not my right to force you to grow, and I can tell you that I did in fact grow into my knowledge of the value of Sabbath from a place of ignorance. I read that in Acts 15, there were Gentiles who were "turning to God" when they saw that there was an opportunity for God's grace to extend to them through the transgression of the Jews .. (much as the non-Christians today are finding more favour in God's sight than the Christians).

    When you read the passage in Acts, it shows that the Apostles were saying "we don't want to burden you with laws that our forefathers have failed to be approved by" (remember: it is because they were judging Jesus as having broken the Sabbath and having not been concerned with trivial traditions, that they viewed Him as a heretic and thereby ultimately condemned Him). So they said "as a minimum requirement, that you may be sanctified in God's sight, we say you will do well if you do these things:
    • Do not eat animals that have been strangled to death or sacrificed to idols.
    • Abstain from blood.
    • Abstain from sexual immorality.
    .. notice there is nothing further added, such as for example, the precepts of loving God or neighbour .. that is to not covet or steal etc. What I gather is that by their association with the Christian spirit, and recognising that Jesus is in their midst, they would grow into more of the likeness of Christ through repentance as they learned through discussion (much as we still do these days .. as long as we are letting go of our ego and loving the truth enough).

    So, yes I do believe that it is ok to say that the Apostles gave the Gentiles a license to break Torah, but not a license t sin. I make this distinction because James 4:17 and Hebrews 10:26 clearly show that a person first has to learn what is good in God's sight before it can be said that they are doing sin by not doing it. Jesus said the same thing in John 15:22 - that a person who is doing wrong while thinking that they are doing right, has no guilt for what they are doing.

    This is why Jesus said that The Holy Spirit would do the convicting, and He has warned us to not be judging one another - because it does not belong to us. Condemnation comes from Messiah when we have been given enough conviction of The Holy Spirit that our disobedience to the truth then becomes sin in His sight (Romans 8:34, Hebrews 10:26-27,31, Hebrews 12:29).
     
  13. Archippus

    Archippus Member

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    The laws God desires you to follow are not arbitrary. You cannot pick and choose which ones you follow. If gentiles are to follow all of torah, for that is law God wants them to follow the leaders of the Jerusalem church would be obligated to tell them that. Years later, the leaders of the church reiterated they were still only asking gentiles to follow the laws given in Acts ch15(Acts21:21-25) So if you are correct, the leaders of the Christian church indeed gave gentiles a licence to sin for their whole lives!
    Loving God, your neighbour, coveting etc was not mentioned in Acts ch15, no. No need, for this is law written in the mind and placed on the heart of every believer. What is in your mind, you in your mind must know, what is placed in your heart, must give heartfelt conviction of sin if you wilfully transgress it. Which shows, all of Torah is not written in the mind and placed on the heart of believers, not gentiles anyway
     
  14. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Is there evidence for this? I had always been of the mind that it was given to maintain their status as a holy nation (Exodus 19:4-6) that they may be blessed by God, which they did well until becoming polluted by the ways of the nations that they failed to drive out (Judges 1-3).
     
  15. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Why would you insinuate such a thing?


    JLB
     
  16. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Yes, you are right to say all of this, and I agree with it. In fact Galatians 3:10 says "those who rely on the deeds of Torah are under a curse".. which is St. Paul's way of telling us what he is obligated to tell us: that one cannot satisfy God's requirements by keeping prescribed commandments.

    St. Peter says a similar thing in 1 Peter 3:21-22 - it is not the purging of the filth of the flesh that saves us (therefore obeying commandments to sanctification), but it is a pledge of a clear conscience toward God (hence Acts 15:28).

    There is value in observing Sabbath though, that is good for producing the fruits of the kingdom: a day set apart to rest, to be grateful and glorify God for life, to not defile the Shalom of the holy day by rushing around anxious with stress because a clock is tick-tocking against us (Amos 8:5).

    To observe Shabbat by obligation (as a law would make it) just cannot produce the right fruit. It has to be a genuine day of rest - from a person who really says in their heart "in six days I will do my labour, and the seventh is sanctified to the glory of God".
     
  17. TR Outrider

    TR Outrider New Member

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    Jesus is God's word in the flesh not sure why that is hard to understand? Jesus did not have his own set of Commandments.
    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    Will you dispute the words of Christ himself? Was St. John wrong?

    Jesus was obviously the whole word of God, everything Moses wrote down in the first 5 books was Christ. He was sent to us to be an example on how to walk out the word of God perfectly. To follow Jesus means you walk the same path He walked. Else how are you going to end up in the same place He did?

    For Christ to change anything His Father did would make God a lair, God does not change...
    - Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
    - Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
    - Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

    We all know of instances where God has been convinced not to do something that He had on his mind to do, but once He has done something He does not change.

    I let the bible interpret the bible I do not allow outside doctrine to influence my desire to love God or Christ the way they desire to be loved. Think about it!
     
  18. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
    Galatians 3:10


    This is referring to the law of Moses.

    The commandments of God did not originate with Moses.

    His commandments are about loving God and loving our neighbor.


    Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10


    Do you understand the difference between the law of Moses and the Torah?




    JLB
     
  19. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    I agree with this, and I understand that observing Sabbath is a way of loving God and neighbour.
    I think I do, but it seems that you are doubting it, so I invite you to make enquiries and see what you can find.
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Your post said, "His commandments are for all who are a part of His Kingdom."

    The title of my topic is: Is the Sabbath Commandment proof that the TCs are not for Christians?

    What did you want me to conclude from that? What were you insinuating?
     
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