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Featured Is the Sabbath Commandment proof that the TCs are not for Christians?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Saint Steven, Sep 7, 2018.

  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Jesus did not have his own set of Commandments? Well, that depends on who you ask. The Apostle Paul and Christ himself disagrees with you.

    1 Corinthians 9:21
    To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

    John 15:10
    If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
     
  2. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the war welcome. :)

    Being in the world, but not of the world is a fine line. Being a light to the world means that they need to shine into the darkness, but also remain distinct from the darkness. The Israelites had problems with this where they went out among the nations and started adopting their customs. They also had problems on the opposite side of the spectrum such as in Acts 10:28 where they adopted man-made laws that isolated themselves from Gentiles. In Leviticus 19:34, we are instructed to love the stranger as ourselves, and you can't do that while refusing to visit or associate with them. However, it was not as though they didn't have any focus on gaining converts:

    Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

    The temple also had a count of the Gentile. This is the intended reaction of the Gentiles when seeing the Israels:

    Deuteronomy 4:5-8 See, I have taught you statutes and rules, as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ 7 For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the Lord our God is to us, whenever we call upon him? 8 And what great nation is there, that has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that I set before you today?

    So regardless how good or poor a job the Israelites has done of accomplished this mission throughout various points in their history, the Law was intended to cause Gentiles to want to become Israelites.
     
  3. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The distinction between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law (also known as legalism) is reflected in modern discussions of law enforcement and is not in regard to following different sets of laws, but in regard to the manner in which someone obeys the laws with respect to the intention behind them. For example:

    Leviticus 19:12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

    Someone who was focused on obeying the spirit of this law would understand that its intent is for us not to swear falsely, whereas someone who was focused on obeying the letter of this law exactly how it was written would understand that we can swear falsely just as long as we don't do so in God's name, which incidentally is the heart of what Jesus was criticizing the Pharisees for doing in Matthew 23:16-22.

    However, even if someone were outwardly obeying the Law correctly, they can still miss its inward intent. Paul said that the Law is spiritual (Romans 7:14), which means that it has always been intended to instruct deeper spiritual principles by which to live by, of which the listed laws are just examples, and which are the character traits of God, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faithfulness, (Matthew 23:23), love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control (Exodus 34:6-7, Galatians 5:21-22). There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in His ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Joshua 22:5, Isaiah 2:2-3, and Psalms 103:7), so again it about teaching us to express God's character traits and to thereby how to grow in a relationship with Him. As such, obeying the Law according to the letter leads to death just as assuredly as refusing to submit to it because it undermines its intent both in regard to what it is teaching us to do and why it is teaching us to do it.
     
  4. TR Outrider

    TR Outrider New Member

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    You have not convinced me, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I do not wish to tempt God so I will follow his will the way I see it. I see you will follow his will the way you see it. Who am I to say your wrong. Like I said before when Christ returns we shall all know the truth. Shalom brother, I will trouble you no more.
     
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)

    There were two sets of laws at work in the Old Covenant. The Two Great Commandments of love for God and people aimed at the born again remnant. And the Ten Commandments aimed at the wicked under threat of death. When Jesus arrived, the wicked had fulfilled their role and God removed them from Israel (Romans 11). Leaving only the believers. The Old Covenant (Ten Commandments) expired being replaced by the New, aimed at believers only. Today we use most of the Ten Commandments for instruction and commentary.
     
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    What translation were you using for this scripture you posted? When I look at another translation I see "You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin" instead of "you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte".

    Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    And the bit about entering the Promised Land needs to be balanced against the order to kill every living thing.

    Deuteronomy 20:16
    However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
     
  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That's a great point about "the spirit of the law" being a western idea, not found in scripture. At least, I think that is what you were saying.

    Many also misunderstand "taking the Lord's name in vain" as using the word "God" carelessly in a sentence that has nothing to do with him. This is another westernized idea. It actually has to do with vows, or "swearing" (a vow) as you have said. We are discouraged from making vows of any kind. Because we do not have the power to guarantee anything in and of ourselves. And the swearing a vow falsely (to mislead or deceive) is infinitely worse.

    Matthew 5:33-37
    “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I have said a few times on this forum that I see the law as a milestone marker monument on the road of grace. A monument is cause for reflection, not a call to action.
     
  8. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    I see the Weekly Sabbath as a picture of the rest to come and is simply a day of rest for man.


    JLB
     
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  9. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    If you understand the difference between the law of Moses and the Torah, please share it with us.


    JLB
     
  10. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    That His commandments are for those who are citizens of His Kingdom.


    That means they are for His Church, those who are of His kingdom.

    His commandments are about love.

    For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
    1 John 5:3


    The way we demonstrate our love for God is to obey His command to love our neighbor.


    If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. 1 John 4:20-21


    JLB
     
  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    You are basically restating the same thing.
    Now you inferring that I am not a "citizen of His Kingdom" or part of "His Church".
    Not much of a clarification to the positive.

    We disagree about whom the law was given to. Or perhaps on definitions.
    The new testament tells us that we are not under the law.

    Galatians 3:23-25
    Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
     
  12. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    I am not inferring any such thing.


    Your relationship with God is between you and Him.


    I can say for sure that God loves you dearly and desires a strong close relationship with you, as He does with all of us.


    Here are some more scriptures about His commandments, His doctrine and His teaching:



    Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



    Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.



    Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:3-5


    For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3



    Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. Revelation 22:14-15





    JLB
     
  13. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Ok. So the law of Moses is a set of written edicts, for instructing how to decide on matters of interpretation of Torah.

    I use the word Torah in this sense to describe the knowledge of the rationale of God's judgement (eg: Matthew 5:20). An example of this, is how our conversation has gone to this point - where if we are doing Torah, we will have a reasonable and constructive conversation. As soon as one of us transgresses Torah, then we have yielded to the flesh and sin has had its way - causing us to not be united in spirit (that is the principle in Luke 11:23). An example is that your response to me was to not begin telling me what you think (because that would be to dominate me and teach me), but so that you have offered me service, you have exercised Proverbs 18:13 - and I guess it was not your calculated attempt to stay justified by Torah, but that you instinctively knew it is the right thing to do. This is how we can say that the Torah is written on our heart - it comes as a result of having holy spirit in us, that makes us act with love toward one another (thereby giving no opportunity for the flesh to produce sin, transgression of Torah, bringing conviction in God's eyes according to the knowledge found in scripture). This is why some people use scripture in a way that is effective at convicting and bringing God's judgement, while others not so (Proverbs 18:21).

    .. So those who handle scripture for that purpose (the scribes and lawyers in the days of the BC era).. they study the scriptures diligently in order to maintain their righteous standing in God's view, in this way being those who receive His power in accordance with Isaiah 54:14-17.

    So, this is how we do battle with the Word of God - the sword of the spirit. As iron sharpens iron, so does the countenance of one man sharpen his brother. So, it is not those who make every effort to live according to the letter of the law that have life, because St. Paul writes that sin came to life through the commandment and killed him!

    .. rather, the written law is like computer code, while the program is a concept in the mind of the users and programmer .. in the same way, life is so complex and always changing, that Torah could never be exhaustively prescribed in a written code. This is evidenced in the fact that governments keep creating new laws, and courts keep interpreting law in new ways, setting precedents.

    "Code is the idea, precisely".
     
  14. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Here is how Justin Martyr explained it.
    About 150 years before Constantine. more than 910 years before the Catholic Church
    Justin [A.D. 110-165.] First Apology Chapter 67
    But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus
    Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration
     
  15. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    So he is effectively saying that the law of the Ten Commandments would have no effect against those who do righteously - because there is nothing in it that condemns nor rewards them. It only has an effect of condemning a person who does not keep them, naming them as "lawless, disobedient, ungodly, sinners, profane, murderers, manslayers, whoremongers, unclean, kidnappers, liars".

    In fact, he is saying that anyone not keeping sound doctrine is condemned by the law. So it really brings forward the question of how can we convey a doctrine as being "sound doctrine", when it encourages people to not keep the law - because by nature it is encouraging lawlessness, and therefore appears to not be sound doctrine! .. That's a bit of a challenge, right?

    I think the only thing that really can do it, is the concept through Hebrews 10:26-31, Matthew 11:22 and John 18:36, that God does the judging, not us. We only share our knowledge of the truth with each other so as to build each other up in love (because each of us has received a measure of grace).. and there is no place for us to judge each other as being lawless or ungodly sinners. Instead, it is Jesus who makes that judgement and the spirit bears witness according to our cosncience (Romans 81, Romans 8:34). In this way, we see that if we are walking in the light as He is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another. The contrary is that if we do not remain in Him, per John 15:6, then we are cut off, shrivelling up and being consumed by fire (Hebrews 12:29), and men will know us by our fruits.

    .. For this reason, we empty ourselves of self-centred ambition that seeks to make people fit a mould, only to serve each other with patient words of truth, looking for every opportunity to increase the body's value (Ephesians 4:15-16) through carefully planting and tending the seeds of the Word of life.
    What I see in this, is that you seem to have not seen how the Ten Commandments are extrapolations of, and a specific implementation of, the Two Greatest: that in each of the Ten Commandments we can see that the Two Greatest commandments are motivating that expression.

    To transgress any of the Ten is to transgress one or both of the Two.

    I haven't yet seen any indication in scripture that the Ten Commandments have become exploitable (except that as sojourners in a foreign land, Sabbath keeping might be persecuted - Ephesians 6:5-9, although it would quickly become apparent that blessings come by honouring God: Philippians 3:21b). Rather it seems according to scriptures of the likes of Nehemiah 13:18, that profaning Shabbat is a false step akin to Romans 11:11 .. where Matthew 21:31 is coming into effect against the churches (look at this example of how weak the church has become in the eyes of society, compared to the sexually immoral).

    To answer the question though,what is the sound doctrine that makes a Gentile so easily acceptable for having turned to God - and the major difference of how the Ten Commandments applies to us nowadays is found through Romans 11:5-6 - there is a remnant that has not bent it's knee to Baal ("owner, possessor"). We do not uphold law by works but by grace, not of fear but of love. Not making God a tyrannical ruler, but one who we love for having decreed that we must be entitled to a regular day for holy rest, by divine appointment.

    I believe that any doctrine coming against the keeping of the law is coming from the lawless one, in accordance with signs and wonders, in order that event he elect might be deceived (if it be possible).
     
  16. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    That is only adding Sunday as a day of worship toward Jesus. It doesn't contain anything to take away the keeping of the Sabbath, of which the article produced in post #86 has made the statement:

    and it contains a few references of the apostles observing Sabbath worship:

    Acts of The Apostles 13:14, Acts of The Apostles 13:42, Acts of The Apostles 13:44, Acts of The Apostles 15:21, Acts of The Apostles 17:1-2 and Acts of The Apostles 18:4.
     
  17. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <SZ>That is only adding Sunday as a day of worship toward Jesus. It doesn't contain anything to take away the keeping of the Sabbath, of which the article produced in post #86 has made the statement:
    and it contains a few references of the apostles observing Sabbath worship:
    Acts of The Apostles 13:14, Acts of The Apostles 13:42, Acts of The Apostles 13:44, Acts of The Apostles 15:21, Acts of The Apostles 17:1-2 and Acts of The Apostles 18:4
    .<end>
    That is a common error. Only one of those verses, Acts 13:42, speaks of gentiles assembling on the Sabbath. Paul was a Jew and he continued to attend the synagogues on the Sabbath. Jesus did not say that His followers would be welcomed in the synagogues.
    John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
    Ignatius [A.D. 30-107.] The Epistle to the Magnesians. Chap IX {student of John]
    If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things20 have come to the possession of a new21 hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance22 of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith,23 and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead. (Comp. Mat_27:52)
     
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  18. Adam Raffell

    Adam Raffell Director of Ministry Development CCI

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    I don't think it's possible to square the view that Shabbat (Sabbath) or the Ten Commandments are not for Christians with Jesus' teaching in Matthew 5:17ff

    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

    Shabbat observance was and is clearly essential for the people of Israel/the Jewish people in a way which is not so obviously applicable to Gentile believers in Jesus (Christians). The Law was given to Israel, and Christ clothes us with righteousness (full obedience to the Law), etc. Many Laws do not make sense or are even possible for us to observe if we are not people living in that land at that particular time anyway.

    I would argue however that the inclusion within the 'Ten Commandments' of God's universal institution - the holy day of rest - weighs strongly in favour of this particular collection of commandments being more universally relevant and applicable than others in the Torah/Pentateuch. This is also how they have been treated by Christian tradition. I would say the reasoning underpinning this is sound.
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant, replaced by the New. We are not in any way under the Ten Commandments. But use them under the New Covenant for instruction and commentary purposes.
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Thanks for your post. Welcome to this thread and welcome to the CFs.

    The tendency is to ignore the term "the Prophets" in Matt.5:17. But I believe it is critical to the understanding of what Jesus was saying. How do you not abolish a prophet?

    Jesus explains what he meant in Matt.5:17 in this scripture below from the time after his resurrection. Notice that the fulfillment he refers to is of the prophecies in the books, not the fulfillment of "laws" through obedience to them. He didn't come to abolish the books, they still had a place of importance, since they spoke about him.

    Luke 24:44
    He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
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