Is the Sabbath Commandment proof that the TCs are not for Christians?

[Kenny'sID]

The ten commandments are for sinners. Without the ten commandments people could do anything and say that it is not considered a sin. But after we are born again, the laws are written in our hearts. We know what is sin and what is not.

As a Christian, which of the commandments would you say is not sin? Or what one is not written in your heart?

 

[Saint Steven]

What do you think the Bible means in Colossians 2:12-23 when it says let no one judge you according to meat and drink and the sabbath and holy days? It says that they are a shadow of things to come but the body is of Christ? In Acts 15:1-21 Paul talks about how no one not their ancestors could keep the law so why put a yoke around the neck of the Gentile believers. Acts 15:11-12 talk about the law specifically and I’m pretty sure it is referencing all the laws in the Old Testament then the Bible says they will be saved by grace and Jesus Christ. But Jesus said he didn’t come to change the law. Personally I’m not sure what to make of the two passages I read above and Jesus saying he didn’t come to abolish the law. I’m not sure what to make of the Sabbath. I try to take roughly about one day off for every week but I don’t always do it always one day every week. I often go stretches of time not taking one day off and then during holidays I do nothing. So I make a half hearted attempt at it. But seriously following all 600 laws is impossible. Where do you draw the line? In a way Jesus made it more intense by basically saying that’s not good enough if you even feel hate or lust you have sinned. But then Paul says the same thing that neither our fathers nor us have been able to follow the old law and we are saved by grace and Jesus Christ. Obviously we are to follow the two laws Jesus gave us, but I can’t definitively say yes or no on the sabbath. Honestly I’m confused

Thanks for your post.
Luke 24:44 explains Matthew 5:17.
Notice that Jesus says in Matthew, "the Law or the Prophets" and in Luke, "the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms". He is not talking about the law itself but rather the books of the law, the books of the Prophets and the book of Psalms. The fulfilling was the fulfilling of the prophecies about him. This has nothing to do with promoting the law.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

 

[Saint Steven]

Doesn't later revelation by the Lord through Paul take precedence over what He said while on the Earth confirming the promises to the Fathers?

Rom. 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

In fact, since the Law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ should we then follow the higher road of grace that does not put us under Law. Instead of considering commandments, we should consider how through grace we can offer up our life as a sacrifice to testify of His salvation of lost sinners?

Well said.

 

[Saint Steven]

As a Christian, which of the commandments would you say is not sin? Or what one is not written in your heart?

That's not the point. Are you under the law or under grace?

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

 

[Saint Steven]

The ten commandments are for sinners. Without the ten commandments people could do anything and say that it is not considered a sin. But after we are born again, the laws are written in our hearts. We know what is sin and what is not.

Is the scripture you were thinking of?

1 Timothy 1:8-10
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

 

[Number Seven]

I have a theory that the very presence of the Sabbath commandment in the Ten informs us that the Ten Commandments are not for Christians.

Is the presence of the Sabbath Commandment
proof that the TCs are not for Christians?

The Bible tells us that the Sabbath is a sign between God and the Israelites alone.
That being the case, how could a set of commandments carrying
the Sabbath commandment be for anyone else?

Exodus 31:13
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

Ezekiel 20:12, 20
Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy. … 20 Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.”

We are counted in as the

 

[Saint Steven]

We are counted in as the

Wow. First post. Welcome to the forum. Trying to learn the ropes I see. Thanks for choosing my topic to start on. Hope things go better soon.

 

[Dan the deacon]

When talking to the rich young man, Jesus said that if he would have eternal life, he must keep the commandments (then lists the ones that refer strictly to our relations with one another, rather than God- but would Jesus have us only treat our neighbors well?)/

And by "less legalistically", I mean that the Jews prohibited people from walking more than a certain distance on the Sabbath, or healing afflictions, but Jesus essentially said that this is not how you keep the Sabbath, not that we shouldn't "keep" it at all.

When Jesus spoke to.the rich young man the ten were still in effect. They became completed after His resurrection.

 

[OzSpen]

Thanks for your reply.
How could the TCs be for us if the Sabbath is not?

Steven,

Only 9 of the 10 commandments are for Christians. The 4th commandment relating to the Sabbath is not confirmed in the New Covenant. Instead, we meet on the Lord's Day, which is Sunday.

I have compiled a comparison of Scriptures in table form : Ten Commandments Old Testament versus New Testament Commandments

Oz

 

[Childofgodharrison]

As a Christian, which of the commandments would you say is not sin? Or what one is not written in your heart?

All of them are sin, but if we didn't have the ten commandments how would you know what sin is?

 

[Dave L]

I have a theory that the very presence of the Sabbath commandment in the Ten informs us that the Ten Commandments are not for Christians.

Is the presence of the Sabbath Commandment
proof that the TCs are not for Christians?

The Bible tells us that the Sabbath is a sign between God and the Israelites alone.
That being the case, how could a set of commandments carrying
the Sabbath commandment be for anyone else?

Exodus 31:13
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

Ezekiel 20:12, 20
Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy. … 20 Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.”

I'll try a different approach and tell how I view and use the Ten Commandments. Since we no longer sacrifice animals, or practice Sabbath keeping, or ritual circumcision, it is obvious the Mosaic Law no longer applies. But I think on the Ten Commandments, continuously using them to censor impure thoughts and imaginations. And I also use them as a rule of thumb for doing what is right. I don't steal so I do the opposite, Give. I don't tell lies about people, so I do the opposite, I say good true things about them. I don't covet, so I give instead. And so on.

But I realize we are under the New Covenant where the Two Great Commandments of love for God and people govern our motives in all we do.

 

[Saint Steven]

Steven,

Only 9 of the 10 commandments are for Christians. The 4th commandment relating to the Sabbath is not confirmed in the New Covenant. Instead, we meet on the Lord's Day, which is Sunday.

I have compiled a comparison of Scriptures in table form : Ten Commandments Old Testament versus New Testament Commandments

Oz

Thanks for your post.
In a sense you are agreeing with me, you just arrive at a different conclusion.
The Sabbath Commandment is the one that doesn't fit. It tells us something is wrong with the whole set.

The title Ten Commandments is nowhere to be found in the NT. It's that important.

So people compile lists like the one you are offering to "prove" that they are all there. Few take the time to consider why they are there and what they NT is saying about them.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'll try a different approach and tell how I view and use the Ten Commandments. Since we no longer sacrifice animals, or practice Sabbath keeping, or ritual circumcision, it is obvious the Mosaic Law no longer applies. But I think on the Ten Commandments, continuously using them to censor impure thoughts and imaginations. And I also use them as a rule of thumb for doing what is right. I don't steal so I do the opposite, Give. I don't tell lies about people, so I do the opposite, I say good true things about them. I don't covet, so I give instead. And so on.

But I realize we are under the New Covenant where the Two Great Commandments of love for God and people govern our motives in all we do.

Thanks Dave, great post.

A week ago, or thereabouts, I had a thought that tracks with what you are saying here. I see the Ten Commandments as a monument on the road of Grace. A milestone historical marker is for reflection, not action. I tells us something about ourselves and God, but does not tell us what to do. We have a new guide on this road. We are directed by the Spirit now.

 

[Saint Steven]

Forget what? Observe what? something that was already in place.

The Sabbath was introduced in Exodus chapter sixteen as part of the manna gathering. The Ten Commandments are in Exodus chapter twenty. It's not likely that the Israelites had forgotten about the Sabbath in four chapters. They had been observing it every week as part of their manna gathering. The "remember" does not mean what you are claiming.

 

[marineimaging]

Thanks for your reply.
Where did Jesus tell us to keep THE Commandments?
Some of them? (pick the ones you like and ignore the rest?)
What do you mean by "a less legalistic way?" ??

I haven't read all of the responses but we know ALSO that Jesus came first for the Jew. That through Moses God told Israel to keep the Commandments. (Did they achieve salvation if they did perfectly? That would be a Jewish thing I think.) The "Commandments" to Israel were first, to bring them back to God after 400 years of being exiled in slavery, and second, to convey to Israel what God considered sin since those generations had not heard the law except through tradition and by word of mouth and that was barely paid attention to while in slavery. (It is possible to see it as they were exiled into slavery by God for failing to obey Him and to meet the needs of justice) But they were also not the only peoples being told to keep the Commandments. Jesus points out to Israel that they were the Jews and had the law, yet and that they (Gentiles) did not have the law but were better at keeping the "Law" they they who had the law. Then Jesus, as he is getting closer to the cross tells both Jew and Gentile to keep the law because he did not destroy it. So first, the law identifies what is sin and then second, the law, if adhered to by both Jew and Gentile, would insure harmony between the two distinct nations giving both a common guide-on to follow. Maybe I am wrong but I live by what I said and have not been convicted by the Holy Spirit to think differently.

 

[marineimaging]

The Sabbath was introduced in Exodus chapter sixteen as part of the manna gathering. The Ten Commandments are in Exodus chapter twenty. It's not likely that the Israelites had forgotten about the Sabbath in four chapters. They had been observing it every week as part of their manna gathering. The "remember" does not mean what you are claiming.

I thought "Remember the sabbath and keep it holy" was penned into stone by God on the mountain and handed to Moses. Called the Mosaic Law?

 

[Saint Steven]

When talking to the rich young man, Jesus said that if he would have eternal life, he must keep the commandments (then lists the ones that refer strictly to our relations with one another, rather than God- but would Jesus have us only treat our neighbors well?)/

And by "less legalistically", I mean that the Jews prohibited people from walking more than a certain distance on the Sabbath, or healing afflictions, but Jesus essentially said that this is not how you keep the Sabbath, not that we shouldn't "keep" it at all.

That's a great reply, thanks. Consider this.

The story you are referring to appears in all three synoptic Gospels. The one in Mark, the first one written, has a few unique features.
- Instead of saying, "keep the commandments", Jesus says, "You know the commandments".
- "you shall not defraud" (Leviticus 19:13) is included in the commandments, thus expanding the scope of commandments outside the Ten to the whole law of 613 commandments.

And despite his law-keeping, there was something the man lacked. Following Jesus. Something they did not learn from following the law.

Mark 10:17-22
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”
20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

 

[Saint Steven]

I haven't read all of the responses but we know ALSO that Jesus came first for the Jew. That through Moses God told Israel to keep the Commandments. (Did they achieve salvation if they did perfectly? That would be a Jewish thing I think.) The "Commandments" to Israel were first, to bring them back to God after 400 years of being exiled in slavery, and second, to convey to Israel what God considered sin since those generations had not heard the law except through tradition and by word of mouth and that was barely paid attention to while in slavery. (It is possible to see it as they were exiled into slavery by God for failing to obey Him and to meet the needs of justice) But they were also not the only peoples being told to keep the Commandments. Jesus points out to Israel that they were the Jews and had the law, yet and that they (Gentiles) did not have the law but were better at keeping the "Law" they they who had the law. Then Jesus, as he is getting closer to the cross tells both Jew and Gentile to keep the law because he did not destroy it. So first, the law identifies what is sin and then second, the law, if adhered to by both Jew and Gentile, would insure harmony between the two distinct nations giving both a common guide-on to follow. Maybe I am wrong but I live by what I said and have not been convicted by the Holy Spirit to think differently.

Thanks for your post. Consider this.

The law was not a harmonizing element. The Bible calls it "the dividing wall of hostility". A barrier that has kept Jews and Gentiles apart. It goes on to say that Jesus set aside the law on the cross, thus making peace. Thus putting to death the hostility of the law.

Ephesians 2:13-16
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

 

[Saint Steven]

I thought "Remember the sabbath and keep it holy" was penned into stone by God on the mountain and handed to Moses. Called the Mosaic Law?

Thanks for your post.

Those who point to the word "remember" are trying to prove that the Ten Commandments were from before Moses gave them to the Israelites. They claim that one "remembers" something that existed previously. Obviously, this proves nothing of the sort. There are several definitions of the word remember. In the second giving of the Ten we see the word "observe", which means to remember.

Deuteronomy 5:12-15
“Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

 

[Saint Steven]

How many of the other TCs were included at the Jerusalem Council? Does that mean these had no relevance either? Note the implication however in verse 21 that the gentiles were invited to learn more once turning to Christ, in the synagogues on the Sabbath. The other explicit requirements of Acts 15 were regarding salvation / acceptance in the fellowship of the brethren.

Gentiles were not allowed in the synagogues. Even Jewish believers were carried away in chains heading for prison.

John 9:22
His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue.

John 12:42
Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;

John 16:2
They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.