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Featured Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 19, 2019.

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  1. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Hello, so there is only ONE Land God promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel) and the Israelites...

    One promise land throughout the Bible...

    The land was given by God as a Promise...meaning that God will fulfill what He promised to Abraham and to his offspring....Genesis 12..God spoke to Abraham.."Go from your country, your people and your father's household to the land I will show you...
    I will make you into a great nation...
    I will bless you...
    I will make your name great...
    I will bless those who bless you...
    Genesis 12:7.. I will give this land...etc
    Notice: it's All God promises

    Was the land have conditions?
    The condition is to believe that God will fulfill All that He had promised..that is Faith- "certainty or assurance about what we do not see"...Hebrew 11
    Galatians 3:8.." Scriptures foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, announced the Gospel in advance to Abraham " ALL nations will be blessed through you". Gen 12
    So those who rely on Faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of Faith...
     
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The answer to the question of this thread is, No.

    Abraham's seed to whom the promise was made is found in Matthew 1:1. This fact is confirmed by the Apostle Paul in Galatians 3:16.

    In Matthew chapter 21 Christ reveals that the "son" is the heir to the land, and that the kingdom will be taken from those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone".

    Based on Luke 21:24-28, the times of the Gentiles comes to fullness at the future Second Coming of Christ.

    Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two People of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.



    Watch the YouTube videos "The New Covenant" by Bob George, and "New Covenant Theology Made Simple" by David H. J. Gay, and “The Prophecy of Daniel 9” by Dr. Kelly Varner.





    .
     
  3. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Haven't seen Kelly Varner for a while! Can't say I missed him.

    The answer to the question of this thread is: YES.
    Romans 9:24-26..in the very place, {the holyLand] where the Israelites were told they were no longer God's people, you [Christians] will be told: You are the sons of the Living God.

    Of course, this is not a restoration of Jewish Israel, but the Christian Israel of God.
     
  4. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well said. You make an excellent point. The entire debate surround Israel and the Jewish people is more than just about a group of people or a piece of land. It is about the integrity and character of our God.

    If the promises God makes to one group of people are no good, then how can we place our trust in the promises that He makes to us? But if the promises He has made to Abraham and his descendants are kept, we can be sure that He will do the same for us.

    But those who insist in one way or another that God has transferred the promises He made to the Israelites to the Church or, has cast aside His people and replaced them with another people to call Israel do not know our Lord or the scriptures as well as they think they do and the positions to which they hold, whether they realize it or not, actually defame His name by calling Him a promise breaker and a liar.
     
  5. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am wondering why you answer the OP's question, yet don't quote him when answering it & instead quote me. Is there a reason why?


    I see no mention of Abraham's covenant in that verse or that the promises in the Abrahamic covenant are attributed to Christ IN THAT VERSE. You are inserting (eisogetically) something that is not in that verse. It simply says Christ was a physical descendant of Abraham, like Isaac was or Jacob was. David was also a physical descendant of Abraham & Christ is mentioned as a physical descendant of David.

    THEN THEY WILL UNDERSTAND THE WHOLE CONTEXT OF THE 31ST CHAPTER OF JEREMIAH & that the nation of Israel remains & they will possess the land promised to Abraham & to them & Christ & Christ will be their King reigning over them BASED ON THE NEW COVENANT.

    After the promise of the Spirit is given, then see what God says about the mention of this new covenant concerning the nation of Israel.

    Jeremiah 32:35-40Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day & the ordinances of the moon & of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:

    36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel (Jacob) also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

    37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured & the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off ALL THE SEED OF ISRAEL for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

    [Christ is part of that seed, being a physical descendant!]

    38Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

    40And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes & all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

    All this is part of the New Covenant, not just isolating verses 31-34 OUT OF THEIR CONTEXT!

    Jer 31:2 Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword FOUND GRACE IN THE WILDERNESS; EVEN ISRAEL, when I went to cause him to rest.

    The new covenant is a covenant of the grace of God so even starting in verse 2 we are talking about the new covenant IN THE WHOLE CONTEXT!

    Jer 31:17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

    There is the hope of the gospel even in Israel's end days as promised to Abraham: 'YHWH's children will come again to their own border!


    If by quoting me you are implying that I am a modern dispensational theologist or that I believe in a pre-trib rapture removal, you are sadly incorrect.

    I have shown your eisogetical quoting of Scripture inaccurate & the context shows just the opposite of what you are trying to assert.

    It is not a 'two people of God doctrine.' That is the naysayer's definition of it. It is talking about nations not people. The nation of Israel and the Gentile nations. People with faith in Christ in both are included & given entrance into the kingdom of God.

    And as I have shown in prior posts, the kingdom of God is full of references to Israel & the 12 tribes of Israel, even the gates of the New Jerusalem and even being called JERUSALEM! Or the believing Gentile nations COMING INTO the New Jerusalem & bringing their glory INTO IT. One cannot ignore the emphasis & the description given even there.

    But thanks for sharing your opinions & your understandings. It makes for good discussions concerning the Abrahamic covenant & the promises given there & to whom they apply.
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Correct...
    However, Nowhere in that statement does it negate this clear statement as you seem to imply:

    21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake

    It seem you would have us redact that statement from our Bibles as you believe it is unreliable, false, incorrect, & untrue.

    I disagree.

    Then ignore me. That what the ignore feature is for.
    If you are tired of seeing my posts it's your own fault.

    As for me, I'm grateful for Your continuing denials of the Prophetic Word, with your unpleasant insinuations, as it provides our readers a stark contrast from my proper exegesis for them to draw their own conclusions from.
     
  7. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    These discussions not only help us learn, but the readers as well. Thank you for continuing to participate.

    We agree, that the Abrahamic promises are unconditional. The conditional requirements of the law, given to the nation of Israel, do not revoke the promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their offspring.

    I agree with your use of psalm 2. I would add that the Father talked not only to the Son, but to those that were present, at His baptism in the land of Israel.

    Matthew 3:16-17 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

    We know that the land of Israel is the Lord's
    Leviticus 25:23 The land shall not be sold in perpetuity, for the land is mine. For you are strangers and sojourners with me.

    and All that the Father has is the Son's. Thus the land of Israel is the Son's.
    John 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

    I agree. But I disagree that we are waiting for that.

    I believe Jesus presently has ALL authority in heaven and ON EARTH

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    I believe Jesus now sits in heaven, at the right hand, with all rule, authority, power, and dominion, NOT ONLY in the age of the apostles, but the age that was to come.

    Ephesians 1:20-21 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, NOT ONLY IN THIS AGE but also in the one to come.

    I believe Jesus is presently the ruler of the kings of the earth

    Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

    I believe Jesus is presently reigning (he must reign is present tense)

    1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

    Thus I believe the earth, which includes the land of Israel, is currently owned by Christ, the offspring that God was pointing to in the Abrahamic promises.



    I partially disagree. The promise of the land was never promised unconditionally to the old covenant nation of Israel as an eternal possession.

    However, It was promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their offspring as an eternal possession.

    The promise land to Abraham and his offspring:

    Genesis 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “I will give this land to your offspring.”

    Genesis 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I have given this land—from the river of Egypt to the great River Euphrates— the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites,Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites, and Jebusites.”

    Genesis 17:8 And to you and your offspring I will give the land of your sojourn—all the land of Canaan—as an eternal possession; and I will be their God.”

    The promise land to Isaac and his offspring:

    Genesis 26:3-4 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and will bless you, for to you and to your offspring I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath that I swore to Abraham your father. I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

    The promise land to Jacob and his offspring:
    Genesis 28:13 And behold, the Lord stood above itc and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac. The land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring.


    Genesis 48:4 and said to me, ‘Behold, I will make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will make of you a company of peoples and will give this land to your offspring after you for an everlasting possession

    Paul reveals the true interpretation is that the offspring is not offspringS, as in the old covenant nation of Israel, it is offspring, SINGULAR, as in Christ.

    Galatians 3:15-16 Brothers, let me put this in human terms. Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

    However, this is not where it stops

    Paul also reveals that marriage, the 2 becoming 1 flesh, points to the mystery of Christ and the Church. Christ is the head, the church is his body. Thus, Christ and the church are one, as a husband and wife are one.

    Ephesians 5:31-32 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.

    Thus Christ, and his body which are one spiritual flesh, is Abraham's offspring and heir of the promise.
    Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.


    Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

    John 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

    I would argue the unconditional promises are to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and their offspring. I believe the offspring is Christ, who is one spiritual flesh with the church, his body.

    I believe the conditional promises to the nation of Israel were simply a shadow, and not themselves the reality, that pointed Christ.

    A simple understanding of mathematics and how genealogy work, will show that Jewish DNA is ubiquitous, especially since it has been 2,000 years since the destruction of Jerusalem. My family recently did one of those home DNA tests. turns out we have jewish DNA. We do not live in the promise land.

    However, As stated by John the Baptist, physical jewish DNA doesn't really matter, for God can turn stones in children of Abraham.
    Matthew 3:9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

    The old covenant is obsolete, along with its conditional blessings. Israel is now under the new covenant which is far more glorious.

    Our hope is not the physical land of Israel. The hope is the resurrection. Christ owns the earth from heaven, where he went as a forerunner on our behalf. A forerunner a someone who gets to a place in advance of others who will arrive later. Heaven is where we have an inheritance.

    1 peter 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,

     
  8. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    There is one land promised unconditionally to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their offspring.

    Paul reveals that offspring to be Christ, a singular offspring and NOT PLURAL offspringS.

    Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

    The land was given as a possession to the nation of Israel conditionally through obedience to the old covenant.

    Deuteronomy 28:63 And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

    The land was not given to the nation of Israel unconditionally under the old covenant.
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here is the reality of Abraham's DNA today. It is found in every inhabitant of the planet. That reality is established mathematically, and verified empirically. The Jewish community itself recognizes and applauds it.

    Which is simply a contemporary confirmation of God's ageless covenant criteria:

    Physical DNA is irrelevant.

    Spiritual DNA is the only determinant.

    Two chromosomes.

    Faith and obedience.

    Nothing else.


    Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

    Abraham lineage
    DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
    Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
    Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
    Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
    Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
    http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
    https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
    https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The woman at the well agrees with you.
    Did you miss the part where Jesus corrected her?


    Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
    Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
    Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
    Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
    .
     
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  11. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    <applause>

    It's good to have you back, @BABerean2
     
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  12. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Yes the time did come when the faithful had to worship away from Jerusalem. That is what we Christians do now. The 'hour' came and we do worship God in spirit and truth.
    This does not preclude a time when we will again worship God in a new Temple; we Christians will be His priests, as Revelation 5:10 and Isaiah 66:21, say.

    Throughout the Bible the theme leads up to the restoration of all of Gods holy people into all of the holy Land. Great will be that time!
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I handled some of the stones in the third temple today.
    I also know the location of the "chief cornerstone" of that temple.


    1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
    1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
    1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


    The Apostle Paul reveals our home in the passage below.

    Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


    The author of the Book of Hebrews does the same in the passages below.

    Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
    Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


    Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
    Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

    .
     
  14. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Exactly as I have said; We Christians are the 'Temple of God' today and Jesus is our cornerstone.

    Isaiah 56:1-2 These are the words of the Lord; Maintain justice and do what is right, for My deliverance is close at hand and My victory will soon be revealed. Happy is the person who follows these precepts and holds fast to them, who keeps the Sabbaths unprofained and his hand from all wrongdoing.

    Isaiah 56:3-5 The foreigner who has given his allegiance to the Lord must not say; The Lord will exclude me from His people. The eunuch must not say: I am naught but a barren tree. The eunuch’s who keep My Sabbaths and choose to do My will, holding fast to the covenant, will receive from Me something better than children – a memorial and a name within My Temple. I shall give them everlasting renown.

    Isaiah 56:6-7 So too, with the foreigners who give their allegiance to Me, to minister to Me and love My name and become My servants. All who keep My Sabbaths holy and hold fast to My covenant; these I shall bring to My holy Mountain and give them joy in My House of prayer. Their offerings and sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar, for My House will be called a House of prayer for all nations.

    Isaiah 56:8 This is the word of the Lord, who gathers those driven out of Israel;
    I shall add to those who have already been gathered. John 10:16


    This Bible passage, written by the prophet Isaiah, gives a wonderful promise to every person – regardless of race, colour or gender. The promise of the Lord, to give them;
    Joy in My House of prayer

    In verse 8, it shows that this will happen after all the faithful Christians, [the real Israelites of God] have gathered into the Land. Ezekiel 20:34-35, Jeremiah 30:10 They will be divided into 12 groups, into the 12 ‘tribes’ of Israel.
    Also as in verse 7, the Temple will be built by them.

    Isaiah 66:18-21...I am coming to gather peoples of every tongue. They will come to see My glory. I shall put a sign on them and will send them to preach the Gospel to all the peoples that have not heard of Me. The 144,000 Revelation 7:3-8 & 14:1-7

    From every nation and by every means, My righteous people will come to My Holy mountain, Jerusalem, just as in ancient days, the Israelites brought their offerings to Me. Some of them, I shall take to be priests and Temple Levites. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:5

    Some of these; are the 144,000 as mentioned in Revelation. This all must occur before the Return of Jesus. 2 Thess. 1:10…He reveals His glory among His ownRevelation 14:1
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
    Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
    Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
    Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
    Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
    Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
    Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

    .
     
  16. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Hello, you said " The land was given as a possession to the nation of Israel through obedience to the old covenant"...
    I'm sorry but that is INCORRECT!!

    There is NO ONE will JUSTIFY BEFORE GOD, UNDER THE OLD COVENANT (law given to Moses )...Romans 3:20, "Therefore, no one will be declare Righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather through the law we become conscious of Our Sin..

    So, if No One declare righteous in Gods sight by following the law given through the Old Covenant..
    How can they be able to possess the Land? That's doesn’t sound right...

    The law given in the Old covenant is NOT based on FAITH, but WORKS...
    Galatians 3:12.." These law is NOT BASED ON FAITH, on the contrary, it says " The person who does these things will live by them"..

    But,
    We or they are Declare righteous by Faith...as it said the .."Righteous Will LIVE BY FAITH" Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11..

    Galatians 3: 16...The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed (Christ )...

    If we read the verse properly is just said the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed (Christ )...so we have to go back and look at what are those promises that God said....
    Genesis 12, .." The Lord said to Abraham, " Go from your country, people, family and household to the land I will show you...
    I will make you into a great nation..
    I will bless you...
    I will make your name great. ...
    You will be blessing...
    All peoples will be blessed through you...
    I will give this land..Genesis 12:7
    Your offspring (seed) will be like the stars (cannot be counted)..Genesis 15:5...etc

    So reading some of the promises spoken to Abraham and to his seed, we can see God intention is for Nation, people who belong to Him as their God..

    Galatians 3:29...If you belong to Christ (seed), then you are Abraham's seed (singular ), and heirs according to the promise...

    Notice: many people but Only One SEED in them which is Christ...





     
  17. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Our heritage; the Promised Land:
    Isaiah 49:14-23 Zion says: The Lord has forsaken me. The Lord says: Can a woman forget her child? I shall never forget you. I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands. Your dwellings are always before My eyes.

    Your people will hasten back, while your enemies depart. Look around, your children gather and come to you. They will be as ornaments in the Land.

    Once the Land was desolate. Your enemies are now far away. The children born while the Land was occupied by foreigners will now say: This place is too small for us. Zion will say; who bore these children, when I was deserted, where did they come from?

    The Lord says; I shall signal to the nations, they will carefully transport My people to their Promised Land. Kings will be your sponsors and great people will serve and honour you. You will know that I am the Lord, none who trust in Me will be disappointed.

    Zion: The holy Land, forsaken and desolate, Jeremiah 22:6-7, Hosea 4:3, that is how it will be after the next prophesied event: The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, an explosion of the sun, directed at the Middle East that will clear and cleanse the entire area. Currently most of the holy Land is occupied by atheists or false religion worshippers. The Jews will be judged, Zechariah 13:7-9, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Hosea 4:3, Zephaniah 1:18, 2 Peter 3:7 and only a remnant will survive, Romans 9:27

    ‘the enemies depart, they are now far away’: Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11 tell us how the surrounding nations and entities all hate Israel and want to ‘wipe them off the map’. Those attackers will all be killed, some by their own weapons; Psalms 7:12-16, and the rest of the inhabitants will flee. Jeremiah 49:4-5 & 35-37

    Your people will hasten back’: A part of Judah has returned, but very few are true believers and Judah now faces judgement. A remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:13 All true Christians are now the Lord’s people: Romans 9:24-26, Psalms 24:3-5, Malachi 3:16-17

    The Lord’s people, all those who put their trust in Him’: Christians from every race, nation and language, will be gathered and transported to all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Isaiah 66:18b-20, Psalms 107, Jer. 23:3-4, Zechariah 9:16 On that Day their God will save them, they will sparkle like jewels in the Land.

    ‘The Promised Land’: will be regenerated and become fruitful. Joel 2:21-24, Psalms 126:1-5

    Ezekiel 36:8-12 You, mountains of Israel, put forth your branches and bear fruit, for the homecoming of your people is near. Isaiah 51:3

    Isaiah 35:1-10 Let the desert be glad, let it flower and rejoice!...Be strong, My people, fear not: your God comes to save you with His vengeance and retribution. Then; understanding will be given to all who couldn’t see or comprehend the Prophetic Word.

    A highway will appear and by that road, the Lord’s redeemed people will travel into their heritage. His holy people, set free will enter Zion with shouts of praise for their Redeemer. Gladness and joy will come upon them and suffering and sorrow will be gone.

    Psalms 48:11-14 The hills of Zion rejoice, Judah’s cities are glad. Walk about the holy Land, count the towers. Note the fortifications and buildings, so that you can tell about them to the coming generations. For this God is our God, our guide and protector, now and forever.

    Psalms 69:35-36 For God will deliver Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah. The children of those who serve Him will inherit the Land and those who love His Name will dwell there.

    Isaiah 55:11-13 You will go out with joy and be led forth in peace....the Land will rejoice at your coming. Reference: Revised English Bible, some verses abridged.


    That all this happens before the Return of Jesus in His glory, is made clear by Isaiah 49:23,
    you will know that I am the Lord’’. First, His people will gather and settle in all of the holy Land. Those who serve the Lord will inherit the Land. Psalms 126:1-5

    All this is prophesied to happen as all the faithful Christians prepare for the eventual Millennial reign of Jesus.
     
  18. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The New Covenant does away with the Old Covenant in that we are no longer under law by which we are condemned by sin, but we are now under the law of grace through Christ by whose blood are sins are taken away forever and the law is now followed not because we are saved by it but because of our desire to honor and please Christ with our lives for if by Christ we are saved, then we live as ones liberated from the condemning power of sin and as those under sin as a way to show our gratitude and gratefulness for the grace shown us by which we receive through Christ that precious, yet much taken for granted an underappreciated, gift of salvation.

    But not all things decreed and promised under the Old Covenant have been cancelled with it.

    For example, we do not look to the Ten Commandments to save us, but we still strive to live and obey them because we desire to please Christ with our lives. For if we love Christ, we will do the things that He tells us.


    God promised never to destroy the earth again with a flood; an Old Covenant promise. But if that promise was cancelled along with the Old Covenant, then the rainbow we see after a rain is but a meaningless array of colors.


    It would be quite a study to go through what was cancelled with the Old Covenant and what is still carried over from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant, but that is for another thread.

    But our God is a God of consistency (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8) and what He has promised to anyone at any time, whether it was made under the Old Covenant or the New Covenant, He will be faithful to carry out, because if He didn’t He would be a liar and God cannot lie.


    You said that the promises of the Old Covenant were cancelled by the New Covenant which is to say that Christ cancelled the promises He made before His first coming. The promises made to Abraham are Old Covenant promises but if they be cancelled with the Old Covenant, then they are not fulfilled.



    “Not following your train of thought.....”




    You cannot cancel and fulfill a promise at the same time. They are fulfilled in Christ as the scriptures say (Gal. 3:16) but they are also extended to the Jews who descended from Abraham of whom it is said “are children of the promise and are counted for the seed” (Rom. 9:8) as it pertains to the earthly promises and though they be presently in unbelief, the promises have not been made void because they will not always remain in unbelief (Rom. 11:26) and because those promises extended to the Jewish people were made eternal. (Mal. 3:6, 2 Sam. 7:24, 1 Chr. 17:22, 2 Ki. 14:27, Is. 66:22, Jer. 31:35-37, 33:20-26, Lk. 1:55) If these promises which were made to be everlasting ceased with the Old Covenant, how can they be forever? And if they be fulfilled in Christ, how does He fulfill those promises unless there is a people and a nation who have been made ready to receive Him as their Messiah?


    It is also for this reason that Jerusalem, the city and throne of David, continues to persist. For to David was made the promise that his throne and kingdom would be made eternal (2 Sam. 7:13, 16, 1 Ki. 8:25, 2 Chr. 6:16, 9:8, Ps. 89:35-37) but if that promise to David ended with the Old Covenant, then how is God not made out to be a promise breaker who is faithful in His promises? And if that promised ceased with the Old Covenant, then for what purpose was Israel restored as a nation and for what cause has Jerusalem been made to persist save for the fact that if the promises be fulfilled in Christ, there must be a nation and a people made ready to receive Him as their King and Messiah and within that nation, there must be a throne and a capital from where He will rule the earth and that nation awaiting Him must be Israel and the city from which Jesus is to rule must be Jerusalem. Any other way and Christ would not be fulfilling those promises the way it was written.



    “The apostles wrote that it was the end of the ages. were the apostles wrong?”




    It is written that were are not to think that the Lord is slow in keeping His promises as some may view slowness because the Lord’s return will be sudden and without any warning (2 Pet. 3:9) and in relation to that, what may seem like a long time from our perspective is but a short time from the perspective of God.

    But from the perspective of the prophetic time scale in which were established 70 weeks, as written in the book of Daniel, we are in that last hour before the final week for by the prophetic reckoning, we who are in the church age are still in the 69th week, but this 69th week has been different from all the other prophetic weeks in that it has been made an indefinite week for at least two main reasons:



    1. Because the Jews rejected their Messiah, the establishment of His Kingdom on the earth has been delayed. He is still waiting for them to repent and eventually they will, but they will have to undergo a purging process first during which many of them will die in a time to come called the tribulation which is the 70th week of Daniel. That will not happen until the end of the church age.

    2. God is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance. (2 Pet. 3:9) Because God has no desire to destroy anyone, He has been patient with humanity desiring that the entire world would come to repent.
     
  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    So Israel's disobedience to the law had no affect on the possession of the land?

    I completely disagree. Scripture is very clear that their disobedience to the law would bring about the curses of the law, which included uprooting them from the land.


    Deuteronomy 28:15 If, however, you do not obey the LORD your God by carefully following all His commandments and statutes I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

    Deuteronomy 28: 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and to multiply you, so also it will please Him to exterminate you and destroy you. And you will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

    Daniel confirms Israel's transgression of the law poured out the curses of the law on them.
    Daniel 9:11-12 All Israel has transgressed Your law and turned away, refusing to obey Your voice; so the oath and the curse written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, has been poured out on us because we have sinned against You. You have carried out the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing upon us a great disaster. For under all of heaven, nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem.

    the nation of Israel, under the old covenant, was never promised the land unconditionally.

    It was Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their offspring (Christ) who was promised the land unconditionally.

    I agree, the law justifies no one.

    I agree, the righteous live by faith

    I agree. It is through Christ that Abraham would be the father of many nations. It is through Christ that the blessings to the nations come. It is Christ who possesses the land promises.

    Simply put, it is Christ who fulfills the promises made to Abraham.

    I agree, I talked about it in post #127:


    Paul also reveals that marriage, the 2 becoming 1 flesh, points to the mystery of Christ and the Church. Christ is the head, the church is his body. Thus, Christ and the church are one, as a husband and wife are one.

    Ephesians 5:31-32 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.

    Thus Christ, and his body which are one spiritual flesh, is Abraham's offspring and heir of the promise.
    Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

    Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

    John 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."
     
  20. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Was murder wrong before the law of moses? If it was, it would still be wrong after the law of moses.

    The old covenant was between the nation of Israel and God.

    You seem to group all covenants into the old covenant. I would disagree.


    I would argue the covenant made with noah is not the old covenant, nor are the promises made to Abraham the old covenant.

    The new covenant with Israel and Judah cancels and void the old covenant made with Israel and Judah. The new covenant does not annul the unconditional promises made to adam, noah, Abraham, or david. The new covenant fulfills those promises through Christ.

    I disagree. The promises made to Abraham are not the same as the old covenant promises. Paul clearly contrasts the promises made to Abraham and the law

    Galatians 3:17-18 What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.

    Now I see where you are going. You believe the Abrahamic promises are the same as the old covenant. Thus how can Christ cancel the Abrahamic promises and yet fulfill them at the same time? I agree. IF the Abrahamic promises were the same as the old covenant promises then there would be a contradiction.

    However, the promises to Abraham are not the same as the old covenant promises. The Abrahamic promises are not cancelled, they are fulfilled in Christ. It is the old covenant that is cancelled.

    Again Paul clearly establishes a difference between the promises given to Abraham and the old covenant (law of moses)


    Galatians 3:17-18 What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.

    The promises to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and David are not the same as the old covenant, which was specifically between the nation of Israel and God. The promises made to those men are not annulled by the old covenant made with the nation of Israel.

    It would be error to lump the unconditional promises made to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and David in with the conditional promises of the old covenant.


    So they were misinformed? I disagree.


    Notice James states the judge IS STANDING (which is present tense Greek) at the door. The only way for James to have made this statement is he was witnessing the events of the olivet discourse. James is talking directly from the olivit discourse.

    James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door

    This corresponds with Jesus telling the disciples that when they saw all the things of the olivet discourse, they would know he is near, at the door.

    Matthew 24:34-35 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

    I disagree, Jesus states some standing in front of him would not die until the kingdom of God arrived.

    Mark 9:1 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power.”
     
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