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Featured Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 19, 2019.

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  1. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    C.E and Pavel Mosko, you both don't see how there still is the two Houses - Judah and Israel in the world. Judah are the visible entity of the Jewish people. Israelite people have lost their name, but it is easy to identify them; as every faithful Christian person, still scattered around the world. 1 Peter 2:9-10

    The Jews are only 2/12ths of the Israelites, they have been given nearly 2000 years to get right with God and accept Jesus, now they face God's Judgment and only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27:

    Ezekiel 21:2-7 Son of man, set your face toward Jerusalem and prophesy against the Land of Israel. I shall draw My sword to cut off everyone from South to North.
    I will make away with both the righteous and wicked, My sword will be drawn against everyone from the Negev northward. All courage will fail – it will surely take place.

    Ezekiel 21:10-14 A sword is sharpened for the slaughter, polished to flash like lightning.
    Should we rejoice in the scepter of Judah? No, the sword condemns the Rod of My Son. Cry and wail for it falls on My people – all your rulers will be killed.
    Testing will surely come – what if the scepter of Judah, which the sword despises, does not continue? Swing the sword three times, the great sword of slaughter.

    Verse 14 is highly significant, as it foretells three judgements of the Jewish people:
    1/ The Babylonian conquest in 585BC.
    2/ The revolutions against the Romans, Maccabees to AD 135, when millions were killed.
    3/ The final gathering and judgement of the Jewish people in the Land.

    At the trial of Jesus, the Jews said in; Matthew 27:25 His blood be on us and our children. In the parable of the Landowner and the Tenants, Luke 19:14 ..his subjects hated him and said “We don’t want this man to be our King
    Luke 19:27 As for those enemies of Mine that did not want Me for a King, bring them here ( into the Land ) and slaughter them in My presence.

    Matthew 21:38-43 The parable of the vineyard - The wicked tenants said; This is the Heir, come – let us kill him and get the inheritance. The King will bring those criminals to justice and destroy them. He will then rent the vineyard to righteous tenants.
    Therefore the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you
    [Jews ] and given to a people who will bear the proper fruit. [faithful Christians]

    The idea of a general Jewish redemption and conversion, isn't in the Bible. It is a tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' theory and neither will happen.
  2. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    None of these verses specifically mention the land. I would argue that Galatians 3:16 is the closest you'll get to the mention of promise land as Paul mentions the PLURAL promises to Abraham. But as Paul states, Christ is the offspring to whom the promises were spoken. Thus it is through Christ, the Abrahamic covenant is fulfilled.

    Where is Christ currently? Does he own the land from the at position?
  3. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Gotta love your ad hominems. It reveals your judgmental aberrations & logical fallacies toward me & your ignorance of the cultural, historical & chronological meaning of what it means to literally 'cut a covenant' at that time in that culture & missing the obvious in Gen 15 as well as what is said in Romans 4 & a multitude of other passages throughout Scripture. We will see who has no idea how a covenant works. Let the readers decide.

    This is no small matter in Scripture but the very fabric of God's character & the unfaithfulness of man's character & His providing for salvation in Christ is the crux. Scripture from Genesis to Revelation speaks of it.

    Romans 4:4-12, 20-22 Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an OBLIGATION. However, to the one who does not work, but BELIEVES in Him who JUSTIFIES THE WICKED, his faith IS credited (imputed) as righteousness. And David speaks LIKEWISE of the BLESSEDNESS of the man to whom God credits righteousness APART FROM WORKS:

    7“BLESSED are those whose lawless acts are forgiven, whose sins are covered. BLESSED is the man whose sin the Lord WILL NEVER COUNT AGAINST HIM.”

    9Is THIS BLESSING only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? WE HAVE BEEN SAYING that Abraham’s faith was credited as righteousness. IN WHAT CONTEXT was it credited? Was it AFTER HIS CIRCUMCISION OR BEFORE? It was NOT AFTER BUT BEFORE.

    11And he received THE SIGN OF CIRCUMCISION AS A SEAL of the righteousness THAT HE ALREADY HAD BY FAITH WHILE HE WAS STILL UNCIRCUMCISED. So then, he is the father of all who believe but are NOT circumcised, in order that righteousness might be CREDITED TO THEM.

    12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had BEFORE he was circumcised.

    20Yet he did not waver through disbelief IN THE PROMISE OF GOD, but was strengthened in his faith & gave GLORY TO GOD, being fully persuaded that GOD WAS ABLE TO DO WHAT HE HAD PROMISED. THAT IS WHY--“it was credited to him as righteousness.”

    The crediting of righteousness to Abraham was based on his faith in believing God would keep & fulfill His promises to Abraham. He saw God as faithful to do what He had promised. He knew he was an old man & Sarah an old woman beyond bearing age already. So he recognized it would have to be one of his descendants to see the fulfillment of these promises & not just any offspring but one who alone could bless all the nations of the world.

    This was the seed promised to Adam & Eve, who would defeat the devil. This was the Redeemer Job had written about & was looking forward to meeting in the resurrection of the dead. This was the Lord who was coming to judge the world, that the prophet Enoch spoke about, the 7th from Adam. (Jude 1:14,15)

    Abram was also well aware of the global flood that destroyed all the wicked & people in the world at that time & God's promise & covenant with Noah then, to not destroy the world with water again.

    The rainbow was THE SIGN of the Noahic Covenant. It was not the covenant but the visible outward SIGN that God would KEEP HIS PROMISE never to destroy the world by a global flood again. Again this is a matter of faith in the trustworthy of God to keep His promise.

    Almost the same language is used of the Abrahamic covenant & that circumcision was also the visible outward SIGN of the covenant that God promised to Abraham BEFORE THIS OCCURRED, showing the righteousness credited to Abraham's account before God was fully 24 YEARS EARLIER & was long before Abraham was circumcised & could not nullify nor cancel nor make of no effect this crediting apart from any works. It was the gift of God.

    Gen 9:12-15 And God said, “This is the SIGN OF THE COVENANT I am making BETWEEN ME & YOU & every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come. I have placed My rainbow in the clouds. It is the sign of My covenant with you & with all the earth. Whenever I form clouds over the earth & the rainbow appears in the clouds, I WILL REMEMBER My covenant between Me & you & all living creatures: Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life.

    You seem to have missed this 24 year time frame, as well as the parallel to the Noahic covenant, which also was unconditional & unilateral & based also on the promise of God.

    In Acts 7:1-4 Abram received his first call (more on this later) & God's promises to him. In Gen 12 Abraham was 75 & received it a second time.

    Abraham spent time in Egypt then moved back to the promised land & God again reiterates a 3rd time the promises of the covenant. (Gen 13:14-18) In Gen 14, Abraham had to defeat several armies that has taken his kin & their possessions. He got them all back & then met Melchizedek, the prince of Salem (peace) & the king of righteousness as well the the priest of God Most High.

    He BLESSED Abram & said this to him: “Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
    Creator of heaven and earth & blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”

    Then In Gen 15, God reiterates the promises of the covenant now a 4th time, being more specific.

    Abraham realized God was with him & God was the One who delivered Abram's enemies in his hand. God had also done this with Pharaoh of Egypt & God had blessed him with greater possessions when he left there.

    It must be getting through now that God was starting to fulfill these promises & that God was faithful & trustworthy to carry these out. Except one major promise had not been done & he & Sarai had already passed the age for it to naturally happen: the promise of an offspring.

    Now God appears this 4th time & reassures Abram. This is the first time in Scripture, that the oft repeated phrase is used: 'The word of the LORD came to...' showing Abram received direct revelation from the living God. In this passage God says it TWICE.

    "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward.”

    We must never forget. Nothing in this life should be our portion or that we should hold onto, including our own selves. God is to be our portion in this life. He is the One who shields us from evil & harm.

    He is the One who watches over us, to bring about good for those who love Him with all their being. God is the One who is our very great reward in this life because He is life itself! (Psalm 73:24-26; John 6:68)

    Abram is reminded of the meaning of his name once again in the midst of this presently unfulfilled promises of God: 'exalted father.' Abram needs clarification.

    1) O Lord GOD, what can You give me, since I remain childless & the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus? You have given me no offspring, so a servant in my household will be my heir.” So God gets specific.

    2) The LORD also told him, “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.”

    But Abram replied, “Lord GOD, how can I KNOW THAT I WILL POSSESS IT?”

    God answers him specifically once again. Then the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one will not be your heir, but one who comes from your own body will be your heir."

    Then the LORD took Abram outside & said to him, “Look up into the sky & count the stars if you can. That’s how many descendants you will have!”

    It was at that time, that Abram fully believed that despite the impossible circumstances, God would somehow do it because He promised He would & that God had proved trustworthy & was truly watching out for him. He had a shield for life & knowing the living God was indeed His great reward.

    'Abram believed the LORD & it was credited to him as righteousness.'

    And to further show Abram that God was caring for him God added, '“I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.” Again & again God reminds Abram of this promise that God was going to do for Abram.

    Abram believed God & now he had right or righteous standing before God. Yet he wanted to know: "how can I know that I will possess it?”

    And here is the Abrahamic 'cutting of the covenant' that was done in that time in that culture & those doing it knew what it meant. Here are some websites by Bible teachers explaining what all this meant back then, so we can understand it, rather than maligning another person's intelligence & character.

    5. Abraham's Call and God's Covenant (Genesis 11:26-17:27) | Bible.org

    The Abrahamic covenant – What is it?

    Growing Christians Ministries

    "While the covenant ceremony of Genesis 15, with its slain animal corridor, may seem quite unusual to us today, it was not unusual then. As already mentioned, covenant confirmations were normally associated with "cutting rite" ceremonies."

    "In Jer 34:18-20, we read, "The men who have violated My covenant & have not fulfilled the terms of the covenant they made before Me, I will treat like the calf they cut in two and then walked between its pieces."

    "The leaders of Judah & Jerusalem, the court officials, the priests & all the people of the land who walked between the pieces of the calf, I will hand over to their enemies who seek their lives. Their dead bodies will become food for the birds of the air & the beasts of the earth."

    "Here we see that not only passing between the parts of a slain animal was typical practice for confirming or "cutting a covenant," but we see from verse 20 the essential meaning in such a ceremony. Symbolically the parties were saying that if either side broke the covenant, they deserved to die like the sacrificial animal or animals."

    "So what may have at first seemed unusual & confusing about the events of Genesis 15 now becomes clear. What was unusual about this covenant ceremony, however, was that Abraham was strictly an observer. He did not pass between the pieces, nor did God & Abraham walk through the pieces together."

    "God alone passed between the parts of the sacrificed animals. This was very significant. God was confirming that His covenant with Abraham & his descendants was an unconditional covenant."

    "This was not a joint venture. It was a unilateral covenant. When God's presence, symbolized by the smoking oven & flaming torch, passed through that corridor of slain animals, God was saying in effect that His covenant with Abraham & his descendants would stand, REGARDLESS of their continued faithfulness & obedience to the commands of the Lord."

    "Why did God choose to use the symbols of the oven and the torch to reveal His presence? The smoking furnace or fire pot represents God's holiness--He is a God who must judge sin. The blazing torch speaks of God's guidance--He is a God who directs His people. Whenever God makes a covenant with man, both aspects of God's character are involved: His judgment of sin because man is sinful & His guidance because man needs to be led.

    God's covenant with Abraham & his descendants would involve judgment. Over the years God has judged & disciplined the Jewish people--from their time in Egypt right down to the present time. But God's guidance has faithfully led & preserved the Jewish people for 4000 years--& will continue to do so."

    Deut 32:9-11 But the LORD’s portion is His people, Jacob His allotted inheritance. "He found him in a desert land & in the howling waste of a wilderness; He encircled him, He cared for him, He guarded him as the pupil of His eye.

    "Certainly there's an application here for the Christian as well. Judgment is involved in God's covenant with us. Our sins are eternally forgiven because of the cross of Christ, but as children in God's family, God must judge and discipline us for our sins, and put us "through the furnace" to refine us and purge out the impurities. But the burning torch is there as well! The Lord is always there to guide us. Aren't you glad about that?"

    "In verses 12-16, God promised Abraham that the covenant & its blessings would be fulfilled--but not immediately. The horror of the thick & dreadful darkness that came over Abraham when he fell asleep was a dramatic accompaniment to the news that his descendants would experience bondage & slavery in Egypt for 400 years. God assured Abraham, however, that there would be a great Exodus of the Jewish people from Egypt & that they would return to the Promised Land. Just as God promised, Abraham died in peace at the good old age of 175 (v15)."

    "Under bondage & suffering in Egypt, his descendants were forged into a nation before God brought them out with great possessions (v13-14). All these promises literally took place.

    Exodus 12:35,36 tells us that "the Israelites asked the Egyptians for silver & gold & for clothing... and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians."

    God meant what He said when He promised to give the land to Abraham's descendants & although there was a delay in the fulfillment, those promises were never withdrawn or denied or canceled.

    God always has good reasons for His delays. In this case, one of the reasons is given: "The sin of the Amorites has not reached its full measure" (v16). The Amorites were a major tribe in Canaan. Their lifestyle was evil & the worship of their false gods included many depraved practices, such as sacrificing children.

    God patiently allowed the Amorites many years to turn from their evil ways, but they never repented. They were finally judged when, at God's command, Israel conquered & finally took possession of the Promised Land.

    In order to show mercy to a wicked Canaanite tribe, God actually delayed His promises to His people, Israel! "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise...He is patient, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Pet 3:9)

    "The lesson for us is obvious. God has reasons for His delays, but remember that His delays are not necessarily His denials. We need to remember this when we're feeling discouraged or doubtful. When it comes to promises given in His Word, God's delays are never denials! Remember, God's confirmed promises are sure & He has many good reasons for His delays."

    "Now, what about the "crows"? In verse 11 we see that birds of prey--most likely crows or ravens or some kind of vulture--came down upon the carcasses of the ceremonial animals & Abraham had to drive them away.

    Why did the Holy Spirit include that particular detail in Scripture? Was it just to record the facts of what actually happened, and thus give the account more historical authenticity? There may be a spiritual lesson here for us to appreciate & put into practice.

    In Scripture, birds sometimes represent satanic activity. In the parable of the sower, the Lord Himself explained that the birds which ate the seed represented the action of Satan. (Mark 4:15). The birds of prey in Genesis 15 may be another spiritual picture of satanic activity.

    These unclean birds attempted to tear & devour the sacrificial animals, the VISIBLE PART of the sacred covenant-confirming ceremony. They had to be driven away! While God could have prevented the birds from disturbing the ceremony, or driven the vultures away Himself, He gave Abraham the responsibility to care for the VISIBLE SIGNS of the covenant."

    So let's look at God's 2nd mention of this covenant of promises to Abram in Gen 12.

    Gen 12:1-5 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country & your kindred & your father’s house to the land that I WILL show you. And I WILL make of you a great nation & I WILL bless you & {I WILL} make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I WILL bless those who bless you & him who dishonors you I WILL curse & in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

    4So Abram went, as the Lord had told him & Lot went with him. Abram was 75 years old when he departed from Haran. And Abram took Sarai his wife, & Lot his brother’s son & all their possessions that they had gathered & the people that they had acquired in Haran & they set out to go to the land of Canaan.

    When they came to the land of Canaan, Abram passed through the land to the place at Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. Then the Lord APPEARED to Abram & said, “To your offspring I WILL give this land.” So he built there an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

    Heb 11:1-3,6,8,9 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for & the CERTAINTY OF WHAT WE DO NOT SEE. This is WHY the ancients were commended.

    3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was NOT made out of what was visible. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists & that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

    By faith Abraham, when CALLED to go to a place he would LATER receive as his inheritance, obeyed & went, WITHOUT KNOWING where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the PROMISED LAND as a stranger in a foreign country. He lived in tents, as did Isaac & Jacob, who were heirs WITH HIM OF THE SAME PROMISE.
    (to be continued)
  4. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    First of all, this is the mercy & grace of God. God chose & called Abraham & promised to do all these things for him. It is amazing because his family had worshiped false gods before this. (Joshua 24:2,3) And He is told to leave the land he is familiar with, to leave his family & relatives he is familiar with & head out to an unkown land God will show him, among people he does not know.

    'Faith is the certainty of what is not seen.' Now the true God speaks to Abraham & Abraham by faith sets out, at first not knowing where to go but trusts God to lead, guide & protect he & his family.

    Second, these covenantal promises are unilateral when God first gave them to Abraham. You will notice in the context that God makes SEVEN I WILL promises of what HE WILL DO. Seven is the number showing Divine completeness.

    Do you want to see the land I will give you, Abram? Then set out & I will show you. He does so by faith. And when he arrives, God then says, 'This is the land. And I will give it to your offspring (seed).

    And God did in Heb 11, saying the SAME PROMISE was given to Isaac & Jacob, who also dwelt in the land & believed by faith that God would fulfill His promises not only to Abraham but to them as well as the offspring of the promises.

    Gen 26:1-3 There was a famine in the land, subsequent to the earlier famine that occurred in the days of Abraham. Isaac went to Abimelech king of the Philistines at Gerar. The Lord appeared to Isaac & said, “Do not go down to Egypt; settle down in the land that I WILL POINT OUT TO YOU.

    3Stay in this land. Then I WILL BE WITH YOU & WILL BLESS YOU, for I WILL GIVE all these lands to you & to your descendants & I WILL FULFILL THE SOLEMN PROMISE I MADE TO YOUR FATHER ABRAHAM.”

    Gen 28:1-5 So Isaac called for Jacob & blessed him...take a wife from among the daughters of Laban, your mother’s brother. May God Almighty bless you & make you fruitful & multiply you, so that you may become a company of peoples. And may HE GIVE THE BLESSING OF ABRAHAM TO YOU & TO YOUR DESCENDANTS--so that you may possess the land where you dwell as a foreigner, THE LAND GOD GAVE TO ABRAHAM.”

    His father told him this was the promise, to be fulfilled through him. Then God Himself appears to Jacob in a dream & CONVINCINGLY CONFIRMS to Him that just like the promise was to Abraham his grandfather & then to his father, so now the promises are given to him, as Abraham's offspring.

    Gen 28:12-15 And Jacob had a dream about a ladder that rested on the earth with its top reaching up to heaven & God’s angels were going up & down the ladder. And there at the top the LORD was standing & saying, “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham & the God of Isaac.

    I WILL give you & your descendants the land on which you now lie. 14Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth & you will spread out to the west & east & north & south. All the families of the earth will be blessed THRU YOU & YOUR OFFSPRING.


    The Bible reiterates this throughout the Scriptures, showing what God promised to do, He did. Abraham, his offspring & Sarah simply believed by faith & acted on that faith, believing the promises of God, that He would bring them to pass.

    Isaiah 51:2 Look to Abraham your father & to Sarah who bore you. When I called him, he was but one; then I BLESSED HIM & I MULTIPLIED HIM.

    Heb 11:10-13 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered Him faithful WHO HAD PROMISED. And so from one man & he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky & as countless as the sand on the seashore.

    All these people died IN FAITH, without having received the things they were PROMISED. However, they SAW them & WELCOMED them from afar.

    This is supernatural, these are miracles defying nature & natural laws. This is God at work, doing what He promised He would bring about.

    Nehemiah 9:7 You are the LORD, the God who CHOSE Abram {'exalted father'}, Who BROUGHT HIM out of Ur of the Chaldeans & {You} GAVE HIM the name Abraham. {'father of many nations'}

    God is the One who chose him, God is the One who brought him out of Ur & God is the One who gave him a name to fit the promise He would do for him.

    Acts 7:2-8 Brothers & fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran & said to him, ‘Go out from your land & from your kindred & go into the land that I WILL show you.’

    4Then he went out from the land of the Chaldeans & lived in Haran. And after his father died, GOD REMOVED HIM FROM THERE & INTO THIS LAND IN WHICH YOU ARE NOW LIVING. Yet He gave him no inheritance in it, not even a foot’s length, but PROMISED to give it to him as a possession AND to his offspring after him, though he had no child.

    6And God spoke to this effect—that his offspring would be sojourners in a land belonging to others, who would enslave them & afflict them 400 years. ‘But I will judge the nation that they serve,’ said God, ‘& after that they shall come out & worship Me in this place.’

    Acts 7:8 And HE GAVE HIM THE COVENANT OF CIRCUMCISION. And so Abraham became the father of Isaac & circumcised him on the 8th day & Isaac became the father of Jacob & Jacob of the twelve patriarchs...“But as the TIME OF THE PROMISE DREW NEAR, which GOD HAD GRANTED TO ABRAHAM...

    Well, well, Scripture does reveal the truth about circumcision, by the faithful, Spirit-filled Stephen in Acts 7! Rom 4:9-11 reiterates a similar teaching.

    Circumcision IS ANOTHER COVENANT, THAT WAS CONDITIONAL but it would be in their flesh--AS A SIGN--to REMIND THEM OF THE PROMISE OF GOD THAT WAS UNCONDITIONAL. It became THE SIGN of the OC, that distinguished Jews from Gentiles.

    Every convert to Judaism had to be circumcised as well, in order to be outwardly identified with Israel. But it was a sign, not the reality. One could be circumcised, but exercise no faith in God & what He had promised, to Abraham, by faith: the very righteousness of God given as a free gift to those who believed God & the fulfillment of His promises. Simply being circumcised did not make one a child of promise! Only faith in the promise did that.

    Gen 17:11 You are to circumcise the flesh of your foreskin & this will be A SIGN OF THE COVENANT between Me & you.

    That is WHY God made the distinction between the outward sign of identification (which water baptism now does for Christians) of physical circumcision with the inward reality of the circumcision OF THE HEART (which being baptized by the Spirit through spiritual regeneration, being spiritually reborn from above by God does for Christians).

    Deut 10:14-17 Behold, to the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens & the earth & everything in it. Yet--the LORD has set His affection ON YOUR FATHERS & LOVED THEM. He has CHOSEN you, THEIR seed (descendants) AFTER THEM, ABOVE all the peoples, even to this day.

    Circumcise therefore THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART & be no more STIFFNECKED. For the LORD your God is God of gods & Lord of lords, the great, mighty & awesome God, showing no partiality and accepting no bribe.

    Deut 9:5,6 It is NOT by your righteousness or uprightness of heart that you are going in to possess their land, but it is because of THEIR WICKEDNESS (remember in the Abrahamic covenant what God said in Gen 15:16) that the LORD your God will drive out these nations before you--IN ORDER TO KEEP THE PROMISE HE SWORE TO YOUR FATHERS, TO ABRAHAM, ISAAC & JACOB.

    Understand, then, that it is not by YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS that the LORD your God is GIVING YOU THIS GOOD LAND TO POSSESS, for you are a STIFF-NECKED people.

    There it is again! Over & over God reiterates all through Scripture that salvation is not by works of righteousness that we have done but by His mercy & that we are saved by grace through faith, whereby God does the same thing He did with our father Abraham--the circumcision is done in our hearts when we by faith believe in the promises of God like Abraham did--& trust in Christ to redeem us & give us HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AS A FREE GIFT.

    Deut 30:1-6,31 WHEN all these things come upon you—the blessings & curses I have set before you—& you call them to mind in all the nations to which the LORD your God has banished you & when you & your children RETURN to the LORD your God & obey His voice with all your heart & all your soul according to everything I am giving you today, then He will restore you from captivity & have compassion on you & gather you from all the nations to which the LORD your God has scattered you.

    4Even if you have been banished to the ENDS of the earth, He will gather you & return you from there. And the LORD your God will bring you INTO THE LAND YOUR FATHERS POSSESSED & you will take possession of it. He will cause you to prosper & multiply more than your fathers.

    6The LORD your God WILL CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEARTS & THE HEARTS OF YOUR OFFSPRING (descendants) & you will love Him with all your heart & all your soul, SO THAT YOU MAY LIVE. (see also Lev 24:16; Jer 4:4,14; 24:7; Ezek 44:7, etc. where all the prophets talk about this)

    Rom 2:29 No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly & circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by THE WRITTEN CODE. Such a man's praise does NOT come from men, but from God.

    Col 2:11When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by human hands. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh.

    Heb 3:11,19; 4:1-3,10 So I swore on oath in My anger, ‘They shall NEVER enter My rest.’ So we see that it was because of their unbelief that they were unable to enter.

    Therefore, while the PROMISE OF ENTERING HIS REST STILL STANDS, let us be careful that none of you be deemed to have fallen short of it.

    For we also received the gospel (good news) JUST AS THEY DID--but--the message they heard was of no value to them, SINCE THEY DID NOT SHARE THE FAITH OF THOSE WHO COMPREHENDED IT. Now we who have BELIEVED ENTER THAT REST.

    As for the others, it is just as God has said: “So I swore on oath in My anger,
    They shall never enter My rest."And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world. There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For whoever enters God’s rest also RESTS FROM HIS OWN WORK, just as God did from His.

    Over & over & over & over again God reiterates that the promises He made to Abraham were to be granted to those of like faith of Abraham who believed the promises of God & their fulfillment. Abraham could not fulfill these, the nation of Israel could not fulfill these promises, we cannot fulfill these promises; only Christ can do that & only God making an oath with Himself, can convincingly confirm it. (to be continued)
  5. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

    United States
    One thing that is obnoxious about this whole debate. The focus of this tiny little strip of land when God has the whole world in mind. The meek shall inherit the earth. That is not some pie in the sky promise. How one might ask? By converting a couple billion more people. And then they, their judgements of right and wrong. There idea’s of limited human government. Their work ethic and good will becoming the dominate influence in the nations of the world. The gold standard so to speak. Bible prophecy teaches this very clearly. But check out how the parable that uses John the Baptist teaches it.

    Matthew 11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say to the multitudes concerning John, What went you out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 8 But what went you out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. 9 But what went you out for to see? A prophet? yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet. 10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before your face, which shall prepare your way before you. 11 Truly I say to you, Among them that are born of women there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if you will receive it, this is Elias (Elijah), which was for to come. 15 He that has ears to hear, let him hear.

    John the Baptist represents or personifies the Law and the prophets. (He is more than a prophet.) To put this in another way. The Mosaic Law and the Prophets whom John symbolizes preceded and prepared the way for the Messiah, the Lord Jesus, Jehovah the Word. (10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before your face, which shall prepare your way before you.) Jesus extrapolates this by saying that the law and the prophets gave birth to ancient Israel. (Among them that are born of women) He proceeds to state that there has not been a nation on earth like ancient Israel in the sense of the Government of God's influence over a people. (there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist:) Yet he states that even the least of nations in that age to come influenced by that Government of God will be better or greater than ancient Israel. (notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.) Now he drives this point home. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist (who represents ancient Israel)until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. You see what Jesus is pointing out that even though ancient Israel has been the greatest nation on earth as far as God's influential reign on earth through the hearts of men. The violent have taken it by force, meaning in war. Israel's own wicked kings and foreign nations have conquered and ruled this incomparable nation on earth.
  6. NeedyFollower

    NeedyFollower Well-Known Member

    Actually he does prophesy the apocalypse in Isaiah 13 and Isiah 24 . And Jesus was a living prophesy of the birth of the world , the tribulation , the destruction and the resurrection /regeneration . History repeats itself . In Jeremiah , the cup of God's wrath was given to Jerusalem , then the nations through God's vengeance was meted out and then every nation on earth . Peter and Paul ( Jewish ) said they waited for a new heaven and new earth . Peter said the heavens would be rolled up like a scroll and even the elements would be dissolved in fervent heat . Peter , like Timothy knew the Holy scriptures from his youth ..these were of course what we call the old testament . It is all there . Fortunately none of the disciples had been to modern theology school and had their understanding informed by God .
    Their message was basically the same as Noah's , Lots , Jesus and the disciples . Repent . Save yourself from the wrath that is to come . Turn to God and He will turn to you . Get in the Ark ( Christ ) ..Get out of Sodom .
  7. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    This argument mostly ignores the ramifications of galatians 3:16

    Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

    The UNCONDITIONAL promises made to Abraham and his offspring are not revoked by the CONDITIONAL promises made to the nation of Israel through the old covenant, because CHRIST is the seed to whom the promises were spoken.

    We agree that the Abrahamic covenant is unconditional, so I'm not sure how I am taking that "out of context".

    It appears we disagree on who the "seed" truly is. I'll stick with Paul who clearly and specifically states the PLURAL promises were to Abraham and to his offspring, who is Christ.

    Thus Jesus is the offspring though whom the nations would be blessed. Jesus is the offspring to whom the land is an eternal possession.

    Do you disagree that the Earth is the Lord's? Do you disagree that Christ was made Lord?

    The prophecy states it will never be plucked up or overthrown anymore 'forever'

    Jeremiah 31:40 The whole valley of the dead bodies and the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be sacred to the Lord. It shall not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.”

    If the prophecy is being fulfilled today, as you appear to claim, and it truly is in reference to the literal physical land and its rebuilding, does it remain when the heavens and earth pass away?

    I disagree with your assertion. I would argue this is a reference to the new Jerusalem.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  8. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    Jeremiah 32 was written while Zedekiah was king. This would be just prior to the destruction of the temple during the seige. The context drives then, that the return to the land of Israel, UNDER THE OLD COVENANT, would be after the Babylonian exile, thus fulfilling the promise found IN THE OLD COVENANT of restoration (Deuteronomy 30:1-5).

    Jeremiah 32:37-41 Behold, I will gather them from all the countries to which I drove them in my anger and my wrath and in great indignation. I will bring them back to this place, and I will make them dwell in safety. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for their own good and the good of their children after them. I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.

    It is after Israel returned to the promise land from Babylonian exile that God would make the new covenant with his people.

    Again, all prophecies of restoration to the promise land written by prophets prior and during the Babylonian exile refer to the return from Babylonian exile and they are rooted the old covenant promise of Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

    Is the old covenant still in effect?
  9. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    The nation of Israel was promised the land conditionally through the old covenant. Abraham and his offspring were promised the land unconditionally through the Abrahamic covenant. Paul reconciles this by pointing out that Christ is the offspring to whom the unconditional promises were spoken to (galatians 3:16).

    The whole earth is the Lord's
    Psalm 24:1 The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof the world and those who dwell therein,

    The promised land is the Lord's
    Leviticus 25:23 The land shall not be sold in perpetuity, for the land is mine. For you are strangers and sojourners with me.

    Jesus is the Lord, thus the earth and promise land are His.
    Acts 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

    Thus, the eternal possession of the promised land to the Offspring of Abraham is to Jesus.
    Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ

    Right, it says He gave Israel all the land that was promised TO THEIR FATHERS. It does NOT, say God gave all the land promised to Israel.

    Israel dwelt conditionally (the law was only a shadow of Christ) in the promised land, which was promised UNCONDITIONALLY to Abraham and his offspring.

    Jacob reveals that God promised the land of Israel and as an everlasting possession to his offspring after him.

    Genesis 48:4 and said to me, ‘Behold, I will make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will make of you a company of peoples and will give this land to your offspring after you for an everlasting possession

    Paul reveals that offspring is Christ (Galatians 3:16).

    I promise 10 acres of land to my grandson when he turns 18 years old. Until then I conditionally give the title of 10 acres of land to my Son and his wife until my grandson turns 18. On the 10 acres of land, there are several trailer homes with people living in them. The conditions to my son and his wife are that they must evict the all the trailer homes and farm the land. They begin to evict the trailers and farm the land. However, within 5 years they have not evicted all the trailers and have stopped farming, I then kick them off and revoke the conditional title to the 10 acres.

    Initially, when my son and his wife were actively evicting trailers and farming the land, was the land theirs regardless if people were living on it?

  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    I absolutely agree!! the law was simply a shadow pointing to Christ.
  11. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    Please read the OP closely. I never stated the promises made to Abraham were canceled by the New covenant. The point of the OP is that the promises UNDER THE OLD COVENANT are now cancelled and void as they have been superseded by the NEW COVENANT.

    The promises of the Abrahamic covenant are fulfilled in Christ. For it is through Christ that all nations are blessed. It is Christ to whom the land is an everlasting possession.

    As Paul clearly states, the PLURAL promises to Abraham and his seed are to CHRIST.
    Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

    You don't need to look to revelation to clearly see that Jerusalem was desolated at the end of the ages.

    Luke 21:20-21 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.
  12. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    "Israel dwelt conditionally (the law was only a shadow of Christ) in the promised land, which was promised UNCONDITIONALLY to Abraham and his offspring."

    It never ceases to amaze me how intelligent people like yourself make such foolish statements like the above!

    One simple question: who were the OFFSPRING of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, to whom the promises were made in the ABRAHAMIC unconditional covenant, that the OC does NOT nullify, cancel, etc.

    The offspring to whom the promises were given IS THE NATION OF ISRAEL! From Jacob, one of the 3 fathers or patriarchs came the 1
  13. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    Jesus is the offspring, as clearly stated by Paul:
    Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

    Incorrect. Paul proves you wrong, as he states Jesus is the Offspring. It would be foolish to interpret the OT with out the help of the NT.
    Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

    The disciples had to have their minds opened to understand the scriptures. Thus our OT understanding should be derived from the NT.
    Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.
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  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    The New Covenant disagrees.

    2 Corinthians 1
    20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    Galatians 3
    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    Hebrews 1
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Hebrews 8
    6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

    The covenant and promises are better because they are all bequeathed to, and fulfilled in, Christ.

    Israel is conspicuously absent.
  15. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    "Israel dwelt conditionally (the law was only a shadow of Christ) in the promised land, which was promised UNCONDITIONALLY to Abraham and his offspring."

    It never ceases to amaze me how intelligent people like yourself make such statements like the above!

    One simple question: who were the OFFSPRING of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, to whom the promises were made in the ABRAHAMIC unconditional covenant, that the OC does NOT nullify, cancel, etc.

    The offspring to whom the promises were also given IS THE NATION OF ISRAEL! From Jacob, one of the 3 fathers or patriarchs came the 12 tribes of Israel! You cannot divorce the nation of Israel from the fathers: they ARE THE OFFSPRING to whom the promises are made!

    The nation of Israel IS THE OFFSPRING OF THE FATHERS! So the conditional OC applied to their obedience to the Law. They could be removed off the land because of their sin but it didn't cancel them from the promise in the Abrahamic covenant that the land was given to the nation of Israel, the offspring!

    That is why God KEPT BRINGING THEM BACK to the geographical land promised to the Fathers after exiles. And now people from all 12 tribes are returning AGAIN from all the nations to which they were scattered & are back in the land of Israel today! Geneaological evidence is used to verify their being of the 12 tribes.

    At the time of the Apostles' Paul, James & Peter, ALL 12 TRIBES WERE ALIVE & WELL. There is the myth that the 10 northern tribes were lost. Scripture verifies people from all 12 tribes existed then & exist today & when God picks the 144,000 Israeli witnesses in the end times, they are picked from all 12 tribes. They will exist then as well. And when the Messianic kingdom of our Lord is established for 1000 years in the promised land to Abraham's offspring, the children of Israel, the 12 apostles will be ruling in this kingdom on earth, in the land, over the 12 tribes of Israel.

    I agree that they can & were judged for their sins under the OC & scattered over the nations because of it, but they will NEVER be destroyed as a nation because God loved the Fathers & will keep His promises. They will continue to return to the promised physical land until the New heavens & the New Earth & the what city? will come down? The heavenly JERUSALEM! The capital of Israel!

    And when one sees its description, guess what is mentioned even at this time?

    Rev 21:10-12,24 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great & high & showed me the holy city of JERUSALEM coming down out of heaven from God, shining with the glory of God.

    Its radiance was like a most precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. The city had a great & high wall with 12 GATES INSCRIBED WITH THE NAMES OF THE 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL & 12 ANGELS at the gates {12}. And THE NATIONS of them which are saved will walk in the light of it & the kings of the earth will bring their glory & honor into it.

    In other words, even the New Jerusalem highlights the 12 tribes of Israel & the saints of the nations WILL COME INTO IT.

    Matt 29:27-29 Jesus said to them, "I assure you: In the Messianic Age, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on 12 thrones, JUDGING THE 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL.

    James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.

    Acts 26:6-8 And now I stand on trial because of my hope IN THE PROMISE THAT GOD MADE TO OUR FATHERS. This is the promise OUR 12 TRIBES ARE HOPING TO SEE FULFILLED AS THEY EARNESTLY SERVE GOD DAY & NIGHT. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. Why would any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead?

    God will not nullify or cancel the promise he made to the Fathers that their offspring (which is the descendants of the 12 tribe nation of Israel) would have the land & possess it. They are doing that RIGHT NOW.

    Living proof is before your eyes! God keeps HIS PROMISES, which were unconditional. Do you think God will suddenly abandon His people that He chose above all the other nations & that are the pupil of His eye, forever before His eyes?

    Those of the 12 tribes today in Israel no longer view themselves as the northern & southern kingdoms. Right now they have the materials to build the third temple. They have re-instituted the Sanhedrin. They are ready to start the sacrificial system again.

    We are living in a tremendous time in history. Let us be about our Lord's business in preaching the gospel during this time of the Gentiles before the great tribulation, never seen in all of history, will be upon us. Jesus is coming back again to judge the nations & deliver His people Israel & set up His millennial reign on earth.

    Here is the rest of my Scripture study on the Abrahamic covenant & why those unconditional promises will continue to be fulfilled & why there is STILL a nation of Israel, consisting of 12 tribes, the offspring of the Fathers, to whom these promises are given.

    Here again there is the distinction between those who believe & INHERIT THE PROMISES & those who disbelieve & NEVER enter God's rest. Why? Because in the verses above it says, 'the gospel was preached to us, just as it was preached to them BUT the good news they heard was of no value to them, SINCE THEY DID NOT SHARE THE FAITH OF THOSE WHO COMPREHENDED IT.

    There is a rest of God that can only be entered by faith in God's promises as revealed in the gospel message. We have that same gospel message given to us today, to either believe or disbelieve, to enter God's rest or never enter it.

    God promised the nation of Israel rest in the promised land in a physical sense. That will be fully fulfilled in Christ's return & establishing His millenial kingdom in the physical land of Israel that He promised them.

    The ultimate fulfillment is a complete rest in Christ's eternal kingdom in the new heavens & the new earth, in which righteousness dwells. No more sorrow, no more pain, no more tears, only joy & rejoicing in the God who KEPT & FULFILLED HIS PROMISES--long ago made in the Abrahamic covenent.

    Until then we by faith enter God's rest by CEASING FROM OUR WORKS AS GOD DID FROM HIS. We have been crucified with Christ & we no longer live. Now Christ lives in & through us. He by His mercy, grace & power of the Holy Spirit, lives His life IN US, walking among us & walking IN US.

    We bear in our body the dying of Jesus (our daily cross, our being a living sacrifice), so that the life of Jesus may be manifest in our mortal bodies. That is God's purpose & design. He in His promise to Abraham grants salvation & the gift of the righteousness of Christ to those who have faith.

    It is not of ourselves, it is not based on works of righteousness that we have done, BECAUSE OUR RIGHTEOUS DEEDS are like filthy rags to God. Only God is good so only the works Christ does through us & the power of the Holy Spirit are GOOD. Not of us. That is the whole purpose of regeneration & the indwelling of God: to cleanse our consciences FROM DEAD WORKS, so that we might serve the living God IN CHRIST.

    Can we still act in our flesh, performing dead works again? Yes we can. That is the purpose of confessing our sins, so that the blood of Jesus can keep on cleansing our sins & cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Our pride & desire for self-righteousness rears its ugly head & refuses to submit to God's righteousness found only by faith in Christ.

    We want to earn it, we want to boast, we want to reign in life, we want God to recognize what WE HAVE DONE.

    God say, DIE & then I can work. Crucify the old man, so that I am ABLE to work in & through you by MY LIFE.

    When our consciences once again are washed clean from these dead works & we again by God's grace die & let Jesus live His life in & through us, producing in & through us HIS GOOD WORKS WHICH HE CALLED US TO PERFORM. We are called unto good works, not saved by the dead works we do apart from Christ working, both to will & to do His GOOD pleasure.

    Paul makes this crystal clear by what he says in Scripture:

    Acts 24:15,16 I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous & the wicked. Because of this, I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God & man.

    Acts 23:1 Paul looked directly at the Sanhedrin & said, "Brothers, I have conducted myself before God in all good conscience to this day."

    2 Tim 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve with a clear conscience AS DID MY FOREFATHERS, as I constantly remember you night & day in my prayers.

    Heb 13:18 Pray for us; we are convinced that we have a clear conscience & desire to live honorably in every way.

    How many times does God have to say it before someone will believe Him?
    There it is again! They did not share the faith of those who prior to that DID COMPREHEND & BELIEVED, pointing directly back to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, to whom the promises were made!

    Paul refers back to the forefathers, serving God with clear consciences.

    Abraham had the gospel preached to Him beforehand (Gal 3:8) in the promise of God that the Messiah would fulfill these things--AND HE BELIEVED IT! Abraham saw in faith, the day Jesus would come & fulfill the promise on the cross. He saw Jesus day & greatly rejoiced, looking forward by faith!


    John 8:52-58 “Abraham died & so did the prophets, yet You say that anyone who keeps Your word will never taste death. Are You greater than our father Abraham? He died, as did the prophets. WHO DO YOU CLAIM TO BE?”

    54Jesus answered...Your father Abraham was overjoyed TO SEE MY DAY. HE SAW IT & WAS GLAD.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old & YOU HAVE SEEN ABRAHAM?” "Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born (even existed), I AM!”

    2 Chron 20:7 O our God, did You not drive out the inhabitants of this land before Your people Israel & give it forever TO THE OFFSPRING (descendants) of Abraham Your friend?

    Isaiah 41:8 But you, O Israel, My servant, Jacob, whom I have CHOSEN, OFFSPRING (descendant) of ABRAHAM MY FRIEND--I BROUGHT YOU from the ends of the earth & CALLED you from its farthest corners. I said, “You are My servant.” I have chosen & NOT rejected you. (to be continued)
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    Again, this shown to be false. The nation of Israel is not the seed. Jesus is, as clearly stated by Paul.

    Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.
  17. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Again you continually quote select verses out of their contexts & paste them together to make a pretext. That is called eisogesis not exegesis. And you do the same as the person who maligned my intelligence by saying I had no clue, none about what a covenant is, by quoting only Gal 3:16 out of the chapter.

    Quoting only Gal 3:16 OUT OF ITS CONTEXT misses so much & as I have already shown in the context of Romans 4 as well & other passages like Rom 9-11, that the Seed, singular does have to do with Christ but the promises plural is changed to singular & Christ is singled out as to one of those promises not all of them!

    Christ is singled out as to the gift of righteousness that Abraham received by faith. Christ is the one who gives all those who have faith in Him this same gift of righteousness, imputed & credited to our account. His account of righteousness replaces our unrighteous account, all as a gift, no works & no boasting before God. And the whole point of Paul in chapters 2-4 is that the Gentiles ARE included along with the circumcised nation of Israel. That is what Paul preached everywhere, the mystery of the gospel.

    But the context does NOT exclude the other promises (plural) & the nation of Israel, those of the circumcision, in contrast to those of the uncircumcision.

    That is what Paul shows in detail in Romans 9 through 11 explicitly testifying about, distinguishing the nation of Israel from the rest of the nations.

    I have already explained that in detail, but that is being ignored. I will not post or explain it again. I was greatly blessed by this study myself & hope others are blessed by it. It is long & detailed but it shows the consistent theme throughout the whole Bible, that the Abrahamic covenant is unconditional, continues to be in force & does indeed tie in to Christ as the promise, to redeem both Israelis & Gentiles.

    Scripture shows God has different purposes for the nation of Israel and the rest of the Gentile nations & the mystery of the church, the Body of Christ in the Spirit.

    Here is my last post on this.

    Isaac believed. Jacob believed. Yet most of the offspring many years later DID NOT BELIEVE when the same gospel message was preached to them.

    The plain, clear, unmistakable & unconditional promises of God to Abraham are continually repeatedly shown throughout Scripture. May we not be a stiff-necked, unbelieving people will disbelieve the promise made by God Himself & no other.

    Heb 6:13-20 For when GOD MADE A PROMISE TO ABRAHAM, since He had no one greater by whom to swear, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, saying, “SURELY I WILL BLESS U & I WILL MULTIPLY YOU.”

    15And thus Abraham, having patiently WAITED, OBTAINED THE PROMISE. For people swear by something GREATER THAN THEMSELVES & in all their disputes an oath is FINAL FOR CONFIRMATION.

    17So when God desired to show MORE CONVINCINGLY TO THE HEIRS OF THE PROMISE THE UNCHANGEABLE CHARACTER OF HIS PURPOSE, HE GUARANTEED IT WITH AN OATH...for it is impossible for God to lie...We have this as a sure & steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters INTO THE INNER PLACE BEHIND THE CURTAIN, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

    This is plainly unconditional & unchangeable, His promises & His purpose. God Himself swore an oath by Himself, to even more convincingly show He was the One fulfilling these promises & their ultimate fulfillment was through the Seed, the Lord Jesus Christ.

    The promise came through Jacob, not Esau. It came through God's promise & oath, NOT BY ANYTHING GOOD OR EVIL that Jacob had done, because He wasn't even born yet! So it is not based on works of righteousness that a human does, but on God's mercy & what God said He will do.

    It wasn't based on birth right either, since Esau was the first born. It was based on God's choice & to fulfill God's purposes, totally apart from anything a man might do, good or bad, believing or unbelieving--GOD ALONE PROMISED IT & GOD ALONE WOULD FULFILL HIS PURPOSES ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISES.

    The more convincing confirmation came from God Himself & no other. They were the promised offspring of Abraham, being identified with Him & being the continued fulfilling of GOD'S PROMISE, becoming a nation that would eventually bring forth the Seed, Christ, to which the PROMISE would find further fulfillment in the cross & eventually find further fulfillment in the Gentile nations, which would find further fulfillment in bringing the Israelites back into the land PROMISED THEM BY GOD--

    ...which would find further fulfillment in Christ establishing His kingdom on earth, the restored kingdom to Israel in the perfect timing the disciples had asked Jesus about & for 1000 years.

    And there is that TIMING again of God--concerning HIS PROMISE yet unseen but spoken 400 years earlier & believed as seen & the certain reality by Abraham & it was GRANTED BY GOD TO HIM yet unseen to him but becoming reality to his offspring.

    Deut 7:6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His prized possession, above all peoples on the face of the earth.

    Psalm 135:4 For the LORD has chosen Jacob as His own, Israel as His treasured possession.

    It gives me goosebumps to see the whole purpose & plan of God for salvation UNFOLDING, laid out before us, BASED UPON GOD'S PROMISES. He originally gave the promise of the Seed to Adam & Eve back in Gen 3:15. They believed it. This was passed on through Seth since Abel was murdered by Cain, being of the evil one (I John 3:11-13), yet Abel's faith & blood still speaks! (Heb 11:4; Matt 23:35; Heb 12:24)

    This promised Seed continued until God called & chose Abraham & began fulfilling it through him, then his descendants. This continued promise finds its way to another offspring of Abraham, King David--& the promise of the Seed is reiterated to him, that one of his offspring would sit on his throne & establish a kingdom for the nation of Israel. This again was reiterated by all the prophets.

    Another offspring, Daniel, talks about one like THE Son of Man, who would have a kingdom that will be established after Gentile empires have come & gone. And it would be one at the latter end of days, that would rule over the whole earth & eventually become one that will have no end.

    Then at the right time, the promised Seed OF A WOMAN (virgin birth--again a supernatural miracle by God Himself to confirm His promise to Abraham) became incarnate & tabernacled among us & God brought about the ransom, redemption & reconciliation through Him in the cross--

    ...the promise given way back to Abraham, that God was bringing forth & fulfilling, so that all the nations would be blessed, by means of the PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, who would circumcise the forekin of their hearts & bring about regeneration, the very life of God.

    And by the way, all your verses in Hebrews is contrasting the Old Covenant (OC) or testament with the New Covenant (NC) or testament, not the Abrahamic Covenant, which came 430 years BEFORE the OC & the OC does not nullify the previous one. You have the wrong chapter.

    The Apostle Paul & the writer of Hebrews have presented us with ample evidence to suggest that the Mosaic Covenant is inferior to the New Covenant in every way. It offered temporal blessings in exchange for human works, as opposed to the promised eternal blessings in exchange for Christ’s works.

    However, the contrast you are needing to see is found in Galatians 3. You seem at times to quote verses OUT OF THEIR CONTEXTS & quoting Gal 3:16 only--devoid of context--is how you missed the contrast of the OC with the Abrahamic covenant.

    The whole context here contrasts the two & shows the Abrahamic covenant is NOT NULLIFIED, is NOT REVOKED, is NOT RESCINDED, is NOT MADE OF NO EFFECT--by a covenant that came 430 years AFTERWARDS. It doesn't nullify the promises made TO ABRAHAM BY GOD.

    Gal 5:5-31 Does He who supplies the Spirit to you & {He who} works miracles among you do so by WORKS OF THE LAW, or by HEARING WITH FAITH— JUST AS ABRAHAM 'BELIEVED GOD & IT WAS COUNTED (IMPUTED) TO HIM--AS RIGHTEOUSNESS?"

    7KNOW THEN that it is those OF FAITH who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, FORESEEING that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, PREACHED THE GOSPEL BEFOREHAND TO ABRAHAM--saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed ALONG WITH Abraham, the man of faith.

    10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by ALL THINGS written in the Book of the Law & do them.”

    11Now it is evident that NO ONE is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is NOT of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”

    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the BLESSING OF ABRAHAM MIGHT COME TO THE GENTILES, so that we might receive THE PROMISED SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH.

    The Law vs the Promise

    15To give a human example, brethren: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it ONCE IT HAS BEEN RATIFIED.

    16Now the PROMISES were made to Abraham AND TO his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring TO ONE, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

    17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, DOES NOT ANNUL A COVENANT PREVIOUSLY RATIFIED BY GOD--SO AS TO MAKE THE PROMISE VOID (empty, of no effect, nullified). For if the inheritance comes by the law, it NO LONGER comes by promise; but GOD GAVE IT TO ABRAHAM BY PROMISE.

    Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made & IT WAS PUT IN PLACE THROUGH ANGELS BY A MEDIATOR. Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, WHO IS ONE, DID NOT USE A MEDIATOR WHEN HE GAVE HIS PROMISE TO ABRAHAM.

    So we see that your isolating only vs 16 keeps everyone reading the whole context, which says JUST THE OPPOSITE of what you are saying. Let Scripture interpret Scripture. The Bible says what it means & means what it says.

    The Abrahamic Covenant was promises God made to Abraham that God would fulfill to Abraham via His Seed, Jesus. And in the context it SAYS the OC was made by a mediator, which means there were conditions between two parties. However, the covenant God made with Abraham was unilateral, without a mediator, God being the one in fulfilling the covenant. We couldn't fulfill the promises made to Abraham; neither could Abraham. Only Christ could do that.

    So Abraham by faith believed that God would fulfill the promises, though all of them seemed impossible. As a result, God imputed, placed to Abraham's account God's very righteousness, the righteousness of God before any works were done.

    How was Abraham righteous? By his works? No.

    But God actually did test Abraham's faith ten times to PROVE Abraham's faith was genuine, despite some failings. Abraham's failings didn't nullify the promises of God. God was going to do what He was going to do.

    It again is shown in another way, the promise being passed on to Isaac then Jacob.

    Rom 9:6-12 It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor are all of Abraham's descendants the children of God. God said to Abraham, "It is through Isaac that you will have the reckoned descendants I promised you."

    8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children OF THE PROMISE who are regarded as offspring. 9For this is what the promise stated: “At the appointed time I will return & Sarah will have a son.”

    10Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. Yet BEFORE the twins were born or HAD DONE ANYTHING GOOD OR BAD, in order that God’s PLAN OF ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not based on works but by Him who CALLS.

    If we go back to see this covenant & the promises God made TO Abraham, that God would bring to pass, we can see a chronological further revealing, so that God's promises could be worked out according to God's timing, plan & purposes & genuineness of Abraham's faith would be shown through God's testings.

    And the promises were fulfilled because of what Christ did on the cross & His resurrection. God saves us; we can't save ourselves. Jesus is both the author & finisher of our faith.
  18. John XYZ Thompson

    John XYZ Thompson New Member

    United Kingdom
    God’s purposes for Israel as a nation appear to have ended with the coming of Christ. National Israel was simply a vehicle for Christ, and thats all completed. There’s not a word in the New Testament about God continuing to have a national purpose for Israel. In fact there’s much to show the opposite. Jesus says His Kingdom is not of this world. Paul says there is no longer Jew or Greek etc. In Jesus all the old OT food laws and sacrifices ended. We are now in “the times of the Gentiles.”
  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    Another incorrect statement. The word for promises is PLURAL in the greek. To change promises from plural to singular would be to limit the context, which is what you appear to be doing. You take the promises and change it to singular and then pick which promise you want it to fulfill, which scripture does NOT do, in order to fit your eschatological bias.

    Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”g meaning One, who is Christ.

    The CONTEXT is the unconditional promises (PLURAL) made to Abraham and his offspring.

    galatians 3:15-16 Brothers, let me put this in human terms. Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

    Paul then reconciles the unconditional promise with the conditional promise of the old covenant.

    Galatians 3:17-18 What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.

    The unconditional promises to Abraham and his offspring are not revoked by the conditional promises of the law because Christ is the offspring.

    Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

    Paul clearly and explicitly teaches the opposite of what you do. I would argue you are changing the plain meaning of the context by

    1.) changing the greek plural form of promises in galatians 3:16 to singular
    2.) picking out which singular promise of Abrahamic covenant is meant for Christ.

    When in reality, Paul simply states PROMISES (PLURAL) and applies the PLURAL promises to Abraham and Christ.

    we agree that the Abrahamic covenant is unconditional, I have not disputed that. We disagree on who the offspring is. You state it is the nation of Israel, but I believe it to be Christ because Paul is very clear on that.

    Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

    Right, how is this not what I have been arguing for?
  20. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    New Zealand
    Hello, if you said that Ephesians 2:12, does not specifically mentioned the land (promise land), then does the promise land has a Name?

    Are there any other land promise by God to Abraham apart from the one in Genesis 12?

    Is the land promise to Abraham the same one given to Isaac then Jacob who became Israel then to the people of Israel (descendants of the 12 sons of Israel which makes up the people of Israel )..Exodus 6:8..Moses speaking to the Israelite ...."I will bring you to the land I swore with uplifted hand to give to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. I will give to you as a possession. I am the LORD. "

    Galatians 3:16, mention that the promise were spoken to Abraham and to his Seed (Christ )...does not mean that only Abraham and Christ will inherited the land but through Abraham and his seed (Christ ) All the nations will be blessed. ..Genesis 12, Genesis 22.
    So, Galatians 3:29.." If you belong to Christ then you are Abraham's seed (singular ) and heirs (plural) according to the promise...

    So, where is Christ currently?
    He lives in those who are born of God...1John3:9, Romans 8:10 etc

    Does He own the land...Yes...Christ in the form of Jesus of Nazareth is our King who will lead us to the land and we are waiting for Him...King of Israel.
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