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Featured Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 19, 2019.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I am asking you within the words of the text....
    .
    All Israel is not Israel
    All Israel shall be saved.

    Who is "All Israel" talking about?

    It seems to me it is talkng about the Jews.
     
  2. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    No; the earth and the holy Land will continue forever.
    Deuteronomy 32:40-43 says that the Lord will send fire to cleanse His people's land.
    Many prophesies confirm this yet to happen terrible Day of earthquakes, storms and devouring fire, that the Lord will send to destroy His enemies. Some years before He Returns.
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    If you think Romans 11 is only about the Jews you must have cut the word Gentiles out of the passage, and you are ignoring the fact that the letter was addressed to a mainly Gentile church.

    Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. (That would be Jews)
    Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree:
    (That would be Gentiles)
    how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    (That would be Jews)

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    (See Luke 21:24-28, to see when the times of the Gentiles comes to fullness.)
    Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    The English word "so" above is translated from the Greek word "houto", which is an adverb of manner, instead of an adverb of timing.

    .
     
  4. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    "Jews" based on what criteria, though (is maybe the better question)?

    Hasn't it been brought up in this thread that the ancient Israelites were a specific group of people - but NOT based on "pure blood lines" as many came into the households from other "foreign" nations?

    IMO - it may be more clear to realize "Israel" is = to "People of God" or "His people" or those that He proclaimed His name before (as God had identified them in Genesis 17:7; Ex 6:7; Ez 34:24; Ez 36:28; Jer 7:23; Jer 30:22; Jer 31:33; Isaiah 52:6; Exodus 33:19; and Ex 34:5-7).
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    @mkgal1

    It only makes sense that "of the Jews" all Israel is not Israel - because most of the Jews have not embraced the gospel of salvation but remain in Judaism. The Jews are them who's religion is Judaism.

    Then during the great tribulation. the Jews embrace the gospel en-masse and are saved.
     
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Your "only makes sense" is based on ignoring Luke 21:24-28.

    It is also based on changing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26.


    It is also based on ignoring the fact that Paul was using the two Olive Trees, one cultivated, and the other wild, as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of two types of Olive tree branches grafted together into the same tree.

    Your High School Biology teacher must have also skipped the chapter on grafting trees.




    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  7. pasifika

    pasifika Member

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    Hello, the old made new...is still the same place, territory etc but New...
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    That is not what the Bible says below.

    Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


    Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

    Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


    Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


    Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


    .
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Luke 21:24-28 proves my position, not yours.

    Judaism is the religion of the Jews, which is based on the events that took place at Mt. Sinai. In the religion of Judaism, a Jew is someone who's mother is a Jew or someone who has converted to Judaism.

    It is during the great tribulation that the Jews will embrace the gospel of salvation. Which is evident in Ezekiel 39:17-29.
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The passage is talking about them who inherit the Kingdom of God - by likening the gentiles as being wild olive trees to Jews as being likened to cultured olive trees. It is not defining who is Israel or not.
     
  11. pasifika

    pasifika Member

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    Hello,
    (1) my first statement was my own summary of why the nation of Israel got kicked out from the land...and you're right is because of their disobedient...

    The question is can they be obedient to God on their own will??? Apart from faith...

    You provide a good verse in Leviticus 25:23.." The land must not be sold permanently, the Land is mine and you reside in my land as Foreigners and strangers...

    So, if the land is belong to God then when He comes back will any other nations can kicked them out (the people of Israel)?

    Do you believe He will return to this land and live there with His people forever? Or Not?

    (2)I didn't mean God was been unfair to the nation of Israel..
     
  12. pasifika

    pasifika Member

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    Hello,
    (1)WAS GOD PREPARED A COUNTRY OR A CITY??? READ Hebrews 11:16 again

    (2) WAS THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM A COUNTRY OR A CITY..
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    In Romans 11 Paul reveals two different groups of Israelites, one faithful, and one not during the time of Elijah.
    Paul said the same was true during his time in verse 5.

    This agrees perfectly with Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27.


    Did God consider the Baal worshipers a part of Israel?

    Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


    .
     
  14. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “…you understand and appear to even agree with the point I made then, that promises or moral issues that are prior and after the law are not affected by the initiation or removal of the Law.

    For example, the promises made to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and David are not affected by the initiation or removal of the Law.”


    The eternal promises made to David were made to him after the initiation of the law. As for the law itself, Jesus did not come to remove the law but to fulfill the law. (Mt. 5:17-18)



    “Not loving God or your neighbor is wrong whether the Law is present or removed.”



    Love is the foundation of the law. When we love God and our neighbor, we put the law into practice. (Mt. 22:37-40)


    “However, the nation if Israel was never unconditionally promised the physical land of Israel as an eternal possession. Israel was only given the land as a possession CONDITIONALLY under the old covenant.

    If the promise of land restoration to the nation of Israel, after the curses had been poured out, was not found in the Law, I would say you have a point.

    However, we can clearly see that the promise of land restoration is found IN THE LAW OF MOSES. Thus any prophecy of land restoration, while the nation of Israel is under the old covenant, is rooted in the Law of moses.

    Deuteronomy 30:1-5 And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God has driven you, and return to the LORD your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. And the LORD your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.

    Jeremiah confirms that this promise, found in the law of moses, would be fulfilled following the Babylonian exile, in which the nation of israel was still UNDER THE OLD COVENANT.”


    The promise of restoration did not apply to just the Babylonian exile. It applies anytime that Israel disobeys and turns from God and then repents after a period of chastisement.

    Have you not read where the Apostle Paul stated that if they did not continue to abide in unbelief that they would be restored again? (Rom. 11:23) This also includes restoration to their land.



    “Do you believe David will literally be Israel's prince forever or does it point to Jesus?

    Ezekiel 37:25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever.”



    It will be as the passage states. David will be the prince of Israel, but Jesus will be the King of Israel from where He will rule the world, though some will say that David is another title for Jesus, although there is not much scriptural support for this. The New Testament scriptures never call Jesus David. But notice that when these things come to pass, the Jews will already be back in the land that was given to them and in which Messiah will be their King and from where He will rule the earth.


    “Jews have lived in land of Israel for the last 2,000 years. 1948 fulfills prophecy because the world now recognizes it as a country?”



    There is a reason why God has retained a Jewish presence in the land even after their rejection of Christ and as a result, judgment which they suffered at the hands of the Romans. But it was not until 1948 that they once again became an independent nation. Ever since they were subjugated by the Roman empire, the Jews had not been under independent rule. After the Romans ruled them, they were subjugated by the Arabs, then the Turks, and after that, the British until they were granted independent status and officially recognized as a nation once more.

    This is significant because Ezekiel speaks of a restoration under which Israel would once again have a king and where God would dwell amongst them once more. That Israel is a nation once more is necessary for preparing the way for the Messiah’s return, and the people of Israel to welcome and receive Him as has been foretold.



    “Why would Peter have expected it to be imminent? Would it because Jesus said "this generation will not pass away before all these things happen" ?

    Peter's argument is that God lives outside of time, thus a 1000 years like a day AND a day a like a 1000 years, not that it will be thousands of years until Christ comes…

    and yet you cannot explain why Paul, Peter, James, and John all talked about the end being at hand.”




    I did explain it to you. You already put forth your rebuttal to it in the above. Granted all the Apostles believed that the end was drawing near, but they did not know the day nor the hour, nor did they attempt to set a date. While there is no denying that God is outside of time, Peter’s argument had nothing to specifically do with that. It was in relation to the return of our Lord in the sense that although the Lord’s return may seem long in coming, it is not so in the sense that we would count as being long in coming.



    “You believe 2,000 year old apostles are walking around right now?”




    In the case of the Apostle John, based upon what Jesus said concerning him, (Jn. 21:21-23) it cannot be ruled out. After all, Jesus has not yet returned and He is not above retaining a few chosen representatives of that generation in this life in order to fulfill all that He has spoken even if they be kept hidden away until the time comes for them to be revealed.

    Other than the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem at the hands of the Romans, that generation amongst whom Jesus walked, as far as history is concerned, never saw all come to pass what Jesus said would come to pass and neither have we for that matter.
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    And how did the above happen?

    How many times does Jacob Rothschild give the credit to God in the interview below?




    .
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Those passages in Romans 11 are saying things about Israel. It is not defining Israel.

    Romans 9:6 implies "of the Jews" they are not all are Israel. When the times of the gentiles ends, all the Jews living in that era will turn to Jesus. Specifically, during the great tribulation.
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on the words of Christ found below, the "times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled at the Second Coming of Christ.

    Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

    Your version of events only works by ignoring the scripture found above.

    The modern Church has done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews.
    The "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel 9, prove that the baby born in a manger is the Messiah promised in the Hebrew scriptures.

    Why have we never seen this simple three-part Gospel message on Christian television?
    The doctrine that you are promoting is part of the problem.
    It is a form of Dual-Covenant Theology, not found in the Bible.

    The modern Orthodox Jew in the video below found the promise of the New Covenant in his Hebrew scriptures. He is now our Brother in Christ.



    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Well, those events describe the ending of the great tribulation. The sixth seal events of Revelation 6.

    It is during the second half of the 7 years, that the Jews, israel, will have become Christians.

    Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
     
  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad we could come to an agreement.

    I would say no.

    The land doesn't only belong to God at the return. It always has and always will belong to Him, for the earth is his and the fullness thereof.

    Psalm 24:1 The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein,

    From where does God own the earth? Heaven.

    And if its from heaven that He owns the land, why couldn't believers be co heirs with Christ IN heaven?


    I believe God dwells in His temple, which is the body of Christ.

    If there a believers dwelling in the land of Israel, then yes, God is there dwelling and walking among them. If there a believers in Africa, God is there dwelling and walking among them. If there are believers in America, God is there dwelling and walking among them...... Where ever the body of Christ dwells, God dwells and walks among them.

    2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Heaven is God's throne and earth is His footstool,

    Isaiah 66:1 This is what the LORD says: “Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool.

    Thus, the body of Christ, God's temple, is where God dwells with his people forever, whether they are at this throne (heaven) or his footstool (earth)

    Ezekiel 43:7 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple, and He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place for the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the Israelites forever

    Do those, in the body of Christ, ever stop dwelling with the Lord, whether they are in heaven or on earth?


    Christ went to heaven as a forerunner on our behalf. A forerunner is someone who arrives to a place in advance of others. Thus, I would argue, heaven (the throne) is the destination of the body of Christ.

    Hebrews 6:19-20 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and steadfast. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus our forerunner has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.
     
  20. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I agree.

    The law is a shadow of Christ.

    Hebrews 10:1 For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves.

    It points out what is sin.

    Romans 7:7 What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”

    The law itself is holy and righteous and good.

    Romans 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.

    The law could not, nor was ever meant to, correct our sinful nature. But that doesn't mean that God does not require perfect obedience to the law. God is holy, so therefore we must be holy.

    Thus God, doing what the law could not do, sent his son to condemn sin in the flesh, thus ALL the righteous requirements of the law are now fulfilled in those who are in Christ.


    Romans 8:3-4 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    The old covenant was a contract between the nation of Israel and God. If Israel would obey ALL of the commandments of the Law of Moses, then God would bless Israel (Deuteronomy 28: 1-14). If Israel would not obey ALL of the commandments of the Law of Moses, then God would curse the nation of Israel (Deuteronomy 28:15-68), which included being uprooted from the land. But as we see throughout the OT, no one could keep ALL of the righteous requirements of the Law.

    So God made this contract null and void by superseding it with the New Covenant. For those of us who put our faith in Christ and are born again, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled, despite are fleshly shortcomings ( I do not mean that it is now ok to sin), SO THAT we might obtain the resurrection from the dead.

    The promises and the curses of the law were a part of the conditional contract (old covenant) that required full obedience. However, since this contract has been removed, the promises and curses have been removed as well. They have been replaced with better promises under the New covenant.

    Hebrews 8:6-7 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.



    I absolutely agree.



    The promise of restoration to the land for the nation of Israel is a promise found in the old covenant. Is that old covenant still in effect?

    As the Law was but a shadow, I would argue the promise of restoration following the Babylonian exile was a shadow (ezra, Nehemiah, Zechariah), while the reconciliation of the world to God through Christ is the reality.




    So you believe the old covenant is still contractually in effect between God and the nation of Israel?




    So you believe David is the shepherd and not Jesus? I disagree. I believe Jesus is the "one shepherd". I believe David points to Jesus.

    Ezekiel 34:23 And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd

    John 10:14-16 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

    If scripture could be read straight forward and understood from a literal interpretation, Jesus would not have had to open the minds of the disciples to understand the scriptures.

    Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures

    Official recognition as an independent country doesn't fulfill prophecy. When the nation of Israel returned from the Babylonian exile, as promised, they weren't recognized as an official independent country by the Persian empire.



    God knows the difference between near and distant and He knows how to explain it to us.

    The angel told Daniel to seal up the vision for it concerned for what would occur many days from now. There are typically 2 interpretations to Daniel 8: 1.) Antiochus Ephiphanes or 2.) the end times antichrist. If Daniel 8 is about Antiochus epiphanies, then "many days from now" means a couple hundred years. If it is about the end times antichrist, then "many days from now" means + 2,500 years.

    Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been spoken is true. Now you must seal up the vision, for it concerns many days from now.”

    John is told not to seal up the prophecy, as the time is near. If the correct interpretation of Daniel 8 is about Antiochus epiphanies, that means "the time is near" in revelation should be less than a couple hundred years. If the correct interpretation of Daniel 8 is the end times antichrist, then "the time is near" meaning +2,000 years contradicts the "many days from now" being +2,500 years because there's not really a difference between +2,500 years and +2,000 years in order to say one is near and the other is for the distant future.

    Revelation 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near.


    Peter states that a day is like 1000 years AND 1000 years like a day. Peter does NOT ONLY say 1000 years is a day.


    2 peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.



    God could easily tell us Jesus' coming in judgment upon the nation of Israel would be many days or in a distant future. But he doesn't. He says soon and "this generation will not pass away".



    John himself rejects your statement

    John 21:23 So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”



    I disagree, the disciples did live through wars and rumors of wars, persecution, false prophets, earthquakes, famines, and the gospel spreading across the known world. There is ample evidence in scripture and history to confirm these events happened in the 1st century.

    James states the coming of the Lord is NEAR. he also states the judge IS STANDING ( present tense verb) at the door.
    James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

    The only way James could make that statement is if he was experiencing the signs of the olivet discourse.

    Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
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