Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

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Contenders Edge

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Sorry, a BIG NOPE! The book of Revelation is in no way chronological in its order of things revealed in imagery. For example:

1.) Christ is in the church in Revelation 2
2.) The sealing of Israel ends in Revelation 7
3.) And Christ is born in Revelation 12.

Likewise, I believe that these seven vials being poured out run concurrently. In other words, we are receiving in Revelations, seven portraits of the same event, each revealing a different aspect of what will be taking place. Much like having seven portraits of the American Revolutionary War, each showing a different aspect of that one war, by a different picture. Or as Christ is seen as the Vine in one place to highlight one thing, the Lamb of God in another place to highlight another, and the Holy Temple to highlight still something else. It's not three separate prophesies of Christ, it's simply using different imagery to illustrate Him as the true Israel (Vine), that He is the Sacrifice (Lamb), and that He is House of God (Temple) in whom we dwell. In this same way these seven vials are numbered to seven to signify "completion" (as the 7 churches or angels or spirits, etc.), while these judgment plagues are one judgment, the portraits concurrent. They are all one event.

Look at the pains and sores of Revelation 16:11 poured out in the 5th vial. You can see the same sores poured out in the first vial. Or as the 3rd vial poured out made the waters and rivers turn to blood, and the 2nd vial poured out on the sea had already made it turn to blood. Did God do the seas first and then go to the rivers and fountains? Not at all, it's the same event of bringing death, but highlighting different aspects of this judgment. The plagues are operating simultaneously upon the earth and they are spoken of as seven to instruct us of the completeness of God's wrath upon them. This is the end time judgment wherein every stone of the Temple will be thrown down, the kingdom becomes void of the life of light, and this signified by blood and darkness, as there is now no healing for the torment of pain and sores. The reason is that the whole house of Israel has been sealed, the testimony of the two witnesses is finished and the day has come when no man can work. There is no repentance by them for their abominations and they continue to blasphemy because the Lord has cut them off.





Sorry, a big YES! All of scripture is written and arranged in a chronological format from beginning to end with few exceptions. And like the rest of scripture, the book of Revelation is written in an overall chronological format:


1. Christ appears to John and instructs him to write letters to seven churches.

2. John is taken up to Heaven to be shown all of that is to come.

3. The seals are opened by the Lamb.

4. In between the seals and the Trumpet judgments, the 144,000 are sealed. This is not the entire house of Israel, but a remnant of them. There are clearly far more than 144,000 Jews.

5. The trumpet judgments begin.

6. Revelation chapter 10 is a mystery.

(The focus shifts to the two witnesses whose testimony is set to abide three and a half years before they are killed by the Anti-Christ and are taken back up to Heaven.

7. Revelation chapter 12 does give John a glimpse of the past (the birth of Christ and Satan’s attempt on His life) before He is shown other things that have not yet come to pass (the woman who gave birth to Christ being persecuted by Satan who tries to destroy her but is unsuccessful because she is provided a place of refuge for three and a half years).

8. In Revelation chapter 13, the Anti-Christ demands to be worshipped as God and all people are required to wear his mark. Those who do not do so will die.

9. Revelation 14: One last call for repentance announced by a series of angels; further judgment commences.

10. The martyred tribulation saints stand before God and praise Him signifying that the number of them destined for martyrdom is completed.

11. Revelation 16: The vials of the wrath of God which probably happen in more rapid succession than the previous trumpet judgment or the opening of the seals. The last vial poured out happens just prior to the return of Christ.

12. Revelation 17 and 18: The focus shifts to the destruction of both metaphorical and literal Babylon. The literal Babylon is one of the last vestiges of the Anti-Christ empire that is destroyed.

13. Revelation 19: The return of Christ who casts the Anti-Christ and his false prophet into the lake of fire and destroys the remainder his armies.

14. Revelation 20: The binding of Satan in the bottomless pit for a thousand years during which Jesus reigns upon the earth.

15. After the thousand years is ended, Satan is released from his prison and brings against Jesus and the saints a vast multitude, all of which are destroyed by God, after which is the Great White Throne Judgment during which Satan and the wicked people who follow him are cast into the lake of fire where they suffer damnation forever. Death and Hell are also thrown into the lake of fire as well.

16. Revelation 21 and 22: New heaven and new earth plus the New Jerusalem descending out of Heaven.


If that is not an overall chronology, then I do not know what is. This is a succession of events but with some exceptions such as Revelation chapters 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 17 and 18 that do focus on certain aspects of the tribulation, but the chapters in which this is done make up less than half of the book of Revelation (seven chapters out of twenty).
 
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TribulationSigns

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Sorry, a big YES! All of scripture is written and arranged in a chronological format from beginning to end with few exceptions. And like the rest of scripture, the book of Revelation is written in an overall chronological format:

Not only that you are STILL incorrect on the book of Revelation being chronological format, but your interpretations aren't accurate, too, which is a typical false premillennial doctrine with literal interpretation approach. One example, you believe that the two witnesses are two literal men with supernatural power until antichrist, a single man, physically kill them in a physical city called Jerusalem.

Thank you.
 
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Not only that you are STILL incorrect on the book of Revelation being chronological format, but your interpretations aren't accurate, too, which is a typical false premillennial doctrine with literal interpretation approach. One example, you believe that the two witnesses are two literal men with supernatural power until antichrist, a single man, physically kill them in a physical city called Jerusalem.

Thank you.






The text requires a literal approach unless it warrants otherwise. If I believe that the two witness are two literal men with supernatural powers until Anti-Christ, a single man, physically kills them in a physical city called Jerusalem, it is because the context of that passage demands it. If I believe that the book of Revelation contains an overall chronological order to it, that is because it was presented that way.

It is from those who insist on rendering the scriptures beyond what the text thereof presents that false doctrines and heresies spring forth.


You’re welcome.
 
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TribulationSigns

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The text requires a literal approach unless it warrants otherwise. If I believe that the two witness are two literal men with supernatural powers until Anti-Christ, a single man, physically kills them in a physical city called Jerusalem, it is because the context of that passage demands it. If I believe that the book of Revelation contains an overall chronological order to it, that is because it was presented that way.

No, it is because you lack spiritual discernment of what God actually talked about. A fool could have been brainwashed by the Dispensationalism false prophets who are selling their doctrines that are as deadly as the hell.

1Co 2:12-14
(12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Two Witnesses are not who you have been taught by men, but who the Holy Ghost says who they are! Do you even know what the number two signifies in Scripture? Do you know what power did they received from God? Do you know how they will spew fire out of their mouths? Literally? Nope, you need to learn how to compare Scripture with Scripture:

Rev 11:3-5
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
(5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Compare with

Jer 5:14

(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Do you honestly think God is telling you that two individuals of Revelation 11 will have supernatural power to spew literal fire at their enemies? Think again. Rather, it is the Word of God in our testimony as fire, according to God's definiation, against our enemies who do not love the Truth. This is the power and great commission that the Two Witnesses comes with the Gospel to the whole world and it has been since Pentecost - - when the church received the power! Selah! Not I, but God said:

Act 1:8
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

AND here is another another example of your wrong doctrine on Revelation 16 about the beast and false prophet who spew frogs in Revelation 16. You think it will be literal event?

Rev 16:13-14
(13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
(14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Let me ask you, will there some physical frogs literally coming out of the mouths according to your and false prophets' doctrine? Or will you study Scripture to find God's definition of beast, false prophet, frogs, miracles, and the battle itself or will you read verses superficially and declare that these will be fulfilled literally? Humm?!
 
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GospelS

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Yes. The land restoration to the nation of Israel was told by Jesus Himself in Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among ALL nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

From this, it evident that Israel will be restored back to their nation when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled. No, the original covenant is not going to be restored. However, a promise awaits the Jewish people. It is the promise of an overwhelming national revival explained in Jeremiah 31:31-34. The prophets indicate Israel’s response to Messiah will happen in the midst of fierce persecution and tribulation specifically designed for them. Their nationhood is necessary because it sets the stage for a revival forged in the furnace of affliction and war. God is positioning them for a second opportunity to accept Messiah. This is what it takes unfortunately, and Zechariah gives the background circumstances surrounding the conversion of the remnant of Israel in Zechariah 12:2-11. Thus the Jewish nation will be saved and united with believers when Jesus returns.
 
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BABerean2

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Yes. The land restoration to the nation of Israel was told by Jesus Himself in Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among ALL nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Why did you skip the next three verses, which occur when the times of the Gentiles comes to fullness?
They reveal the future Second Coming of Christ.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.
 
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GospelS

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Why did you skip the next three verses, which occur when the times of the Gentiles comes to fullness?
They reveal the future Second Coming of Christ.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.

Well, there’s lot more I wanted to add but I tried to shorten as much as I could to stay on point and be specific to the question asked in this thread. Also I would like to keep it short for the sake of those who tend to skip reading any post if it’s a lengthy one. Anyway, thanks for posting those additional verses. :)
 
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TribulationSigns

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Yes. The land restoration to the nation of Israel was told by Jesus Himself in Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among ALL nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

From this, it evident that Israel will be restored back to their nation when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Luk 21:24
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The verse says NOTHING about the restoration of the pile of dirt in the Middle East to the Jews.

The CONTEXT of Luke 21 is not talking about the modern nation of Israel (Premillennialism) or 70AD Jersulaem (Preterism), but rather about the New Testament congregation prior to Second Coming which Jerusalem and Judea is TYPE OF! Selah!

Therefore the context is to warn the saints to flee the church "because" there are abomination and woe on them that remain. Because the wrath of God is upon the PROFESSED BELIEVERS! How? God will cause them to believe a lie by listening to the false prophets and christs (according to context) as a judgment for their unfaithfulness. That is WHY God warned, "And woe unto you who are with child, and to you that give suck in those days!" Why is that? Well, because it's obviously two separate entities. The children (professed believers), and this Woman (unfaithful congregation) who was supposed to nurse them. Not the Election! To make it about one is ludicrous! Look at this from another passage.

Luke 21:23-34
  • "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
  • And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Again, there is wrath upon this people, and again God (not me) illustrates this is His Congregation (symbolically Jerusalem) being trodden down. it's judgment of God upon her for her abominations. Obviously, VERY OBVIOUSLY, it is woe unto them that REFUSES to flee this city, not to those whom God has told when they see this abomination "to flee." That's is the natural flow of this passage. What you are attempting to make it declare is decidedly un-natural. Because clearly, when we allow scripture to interpret scripture, the woe is because those who nurse the children are under the wrath of God, under God's judgment. i.e., the apostate Church which has abomination standing in it.

The Gentiles are type of unsaved people. Luke 21:34 is talking about God will cause the professed Christians who professed to be saved to be SPIRITUALLY CAPTURED by the false prophets and christs so they will be as lost as those in the world, outside the church! This will last until the time of the Gentiles which is the reign of Satan through false prophets and christs be fulfilled! Then come the Second COming and the rapture.

If you are looking for physical fulfillment over there in the Middle East with Jews in nation Israel, you totally missed what God talked about! That is why premillennialists (as well as preterists) are looking for the WRONG signs in the "sun, moon, and stars" where God has defined as HIS CHURCH!
 
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TribulationSigns

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Why did you skip the next three verses, which occur when the times of the Gentiles comes to fullness?
They reveal the future Second Coming of Christ.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Yes, the signs in the Sun, Moon, and Stars ARE the Signs of Christ's Return. But many people are looking for nation Israel or cosmic disturbances which is the majority view, but no, I don't think so. The whole chapter is speaking spiritually, allegorically, about very literal things. Wars, earthquakes, the Holy Temple, The flight on the Sabbath, Judaea, Mountains and on and on. So to me, if the Sun isn't going to literally turn dark, or in other places to blood, then clearly the language of the Bible concerning these things is symbolical. Likewise, if the stars aren't going to literally fall to earth (which is nonsense, because that would vaporize Earth), then clearly the language is symbolical. I think the Bible was written by God in a very practical way that we would be able to "logically" understand it. That's what I've found in searching scripture over the years. He wrote it that way to His Glory. But I just don't think most people get it. But that's just me. I tend to look at the Bible in the way I believe God wrote it, and therefore wants us to understand it. By comparing scripture (God's word) with scripture, allowing it to define and interpret itself.

Proverbs 25:2
  • "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
I take this very seriously. There is no gospel import to stars falling to earth, the import is to messengers of the Church falling. They are "figuratively" the stars, the lesser lights. The Sun becoming dark is a symbolic reference to the Church, the light of the world. God declared the Church is the light of the world, which OBVIOUSLY He took from the image of the Sun. Whether stars or sun, it is symbolic.

Revelation 12:1
  • "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"
Is there a woman actually floating in heaven that has our Sol for a dress? Or, is God instructing us in spiritual matters of the Church through this prophecy? Just as in this Revelation 12 God says Satan's tail drew the third part of stars of heaven. Is Satan literally playing with literal stars in heaven? Does Satan even have a literal tail long enough to strike down third of known stars in the whole universe? Of course not! What about dragon's 10 literal horns, or is this all symbolical? That is the pertinent question. Because as I reiterate time and time again, the Bible is its own interpreter. Stars falling are symbolic of those of the Church, not cosmic impossibilities.

Revelation 1:20
  • "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars ARE the messengers of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches."
This is God's definition that we need to use to interpret HIS prophecy! Not national geography or Space magazine. The Bible is its own interpreter, thus we have biblical warrant to look at symbolic references to stars, as the messengers of the Churches. ....and we know how they fall. They fall just as Israel fell.

Romans 11:11
  • "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."
Likewise the Church can, and does fall.

Hebrews 6:4-6
  • "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
  • And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
  • If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
If the messengers of the Church fall, they are the "stars falling." Selah! Just as Joseph dreamed the dream of the sons/children of Israel as 12 stars. There is nothing new here. God has always used this type of symbolism. The problem is not in what is (or is not) written, but in man's aversion to receiving it like I see many members here!
 
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keras

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All Israelites in the holy Land: Romans 2:29, Romans 9:6-8, +

Why do people see the Bible as not absolutely clear on the premise of the Lord's people being in the holy Land before the Return?
Consider Daniel 7:23-25, paralleled by Revelation 13:7, where God's people are defeated by the armies of the Anti-Christ. Where does this happen? We are told in Revelation 11:1-8...in the Holy City, where the Lord was crucified. Zechariah 14:1-2 and Daniel 11:29-35, also describe this 3 1/2 year period of traumatic testing for the Christian people of the Lord, WHO ARE IN THE HOLY LAND AT THAT TIME.
Revelation 12:1-17 is very informative and gives more details of this 3 1/2, 42 month or 1260 day period: that chapter tell us that Satan will be thrown out of the spiritual realm and will come to earth, his angels with him. He pursues the 'woman', that we know must refer to all the faithful, righteous Christian people. Israelites as per Galatians 3:26-29. They are then living in peace and prosperity in the holy Land, as many prophesies describe. The new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

The 'many' who had agreed to a peace treaty with the Anti-Christ, the leader of the One World Government, Daniel 9:27, are those who remain in the Land, Revelation 12:17, Zechariah 14:2b. But those who refuse to accede to that treaty, will leave the holy Land, will be taken to a place of safety, where they will be looked after for 1260 days, in a place prepared by God. Revelation 12:6
These are Biblical truths, proving the many prophesies about the great Second Exodus of all the Lords people, from every tribe, nation, race and language, Revelation 5:9-10, that will happen before the Return of Jesus. Then, He will destroy those conquerors of the holy Land, along with the rest of those gathered by Satan, Revelation 16:14, and bring all His people back to Jerusalem, Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

That this teaching is not known to you and most other Christians, is how God wanted it to be. Matthew 11:25
But now as we are so close to the time of fulfillment, God is 'opening the eyes and unstopping the ears' of a few who are willing to put aside false teachings and really understand His Plans for our future. Jeremiah 30:24

Rev Man, Did Jesus ride on a spiritual donkey when He entered Jerusalem at His first Advent: Zechariah 9:9 prophesied it and it was literally fulfilled.
For what reason do you think the end times prophesies won't also be literally fulfilled?
 
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GospelS

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Luk 21:24
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The verse says NOTHING about the restoration of the pile of dirt in the Middle East to the Jews.

The CONTEXT of Luke 21 is not talking about the modern nation of Israel (Premillennialism) or 70AD Jersulaem (Preterism), but rather about the New Testament congregation prior to Second Coming which Jerusalem and Judea is TYPE OF! Selah!

Therefore the context is to warn the saints to flee the church "because" there are abomination and woe on them that remain. Because the wrath of God is upon the PROFESSED BELIEVERS! How? God will cause them to believe a lie by listening to the false prophets and christs (according to context) as a judgment for their unfaithfulness. That is WHY God warned, "And woe unto you who are with child, and to you that give suck in those days!" Why is that? Well, because it's obviously two separate entities. The children (professed believers), and this Woman (unfaithful congregation) who was supposed to nurse them. Not the Election! To make it about one is ludicrous! Look at this from another passage.

Luke 21:23-34
  • "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
  • And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Again, there is wrath upon this people, and again God (not me) illustrates this is His Congregation (symbolically Jerusalem) being trodden down. it's judgment of God upon her for her abominations. Obviously, VERY OBVIOUSLY, it is woe unto them that REFUSES to flee this city, not to those whom God has told when they see this abomination "to flee." That's is the natural flow of this passage. What you are attempting to make it declare is decidedly un-natural. Because clearly, when we allow scripture to interpret scripture, the woe is because those who nurse the children are under the wrath of God, under God's judgment. i.e., the apostate Church which has abomination standing in it.

The Gentiles are type of unsaved people. Luke 21:34 is talking about God will cause the professed Christians who professed to be saved to be SPIRITUALLY CAPTURED by the false prophets and christs so they will be as lost as those in the world, outside the church! This will last until the time of the Gentiles which is the reign of Satan through false prophets and christs be fulfilled! Then come the Second COming and the rapture.

If you are looking for physical fulfillment over there in the Middle East with Jews in nation Israel, you totally missed what God talked about! That is why premillennialists (as well as preterists) are looking for the WRONG signs in the "sun, moon, and stars" where God has defined as HIS CHURCH!

I did not say anything about the final fulfillment when there will be a new earth and new Jerusalem which happens upon Jesus return. In Luke 21:24, Jesus was talking about the end time signs and Israel coming back to their land is an end time signal.

Jerusalem was indeed trampled underfoot for nearly two millennia then in our modern era, against impossible odds, came out from under the control of Gentiles. Is this not the fulfilment of Jesus’ word? Has there ever been a people who, after 1900 years of non-existence, emerged again in their country of origin as an independent, sovereign state?

Anyways, what I see in literal sense is what you see in symbolic way. So I can’t say more. Let God open my eyes to the truth if i’m not seeing what I ought to see. Good luck.
 
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BABerean2

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Yes, the signs in the Sun, Moon, and Stars ARE the Signs of Christ's Return. But many people are looking for nation Israel or cosmic disturbances which is the majority view, but no, I don't think so. The whole chapter is speaking spiritually, allegorically, about very literal things. Wars, earthquakes, the Holy Temple, The flight on the Sabbath, Judaea, Mountains and on and on. So to me, if the Sun isn't going to literally turn dark, or in other places to blood, then clearly the language of the Bible concerning these things is symbolical. Likewise, if the stars aren't going to literally fall to earth (which is nonsense, because that would vaporize Earth), then clearly the language is symbolical. I think the Bible was written by God in a very practical way that we would be able to "logically" understand it. That's what I've found in searching scripture over the years. He wrote it that way to His Glory. But I just don't think most people get it. But that's just me. I tend to look at the Bible in the way I believe God wrote it, and therefore wants us to understand it. By comparing scripture (God's word) with scripture, allowing it to define and interpret itself.

Proverbs 25:2
  • "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
I take this very seriously. There is no gospel import to stars falling to earth, the import is to messengers of the Church falling. They are "figuratively" the stars, the lesser lights. The Sun becoming dark is a symbolic reference to the Church, the light of the world. God declared the Church is the light of the world, which OBVIOUSLY He took from the image of the Sun. Whether stars or sun, it is symbolic.

Revelation 12:1
  • "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"
Is there a woman actually floating in heaven that has our Sol for a dress? Or, is God instructing us in spiritual matters of the Church through this prophecy? Just as in this Revelation 12 God says Satan's tail drew the third part of stars of heaven. Is Satan literally playing with literal stars in heaven? Does Satan even have a literal tail long enough to strike down third of known stars in the whole universe? Of course not! What about dragon's 10 literal horns, or is this all symbolical? That is the pertinent question. Because as I reiterate time and time again, the Bible is its own interpreter. Stars falling are symbolic of those of the Church, not cosmic impossibilities.

Revelation 1:20
  • "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars ARE the messengers of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches."
This is God's definition that we need to use to interpret HIS prophecy! Not national geography or Space magazine. The Bible is its own interpreter, thus we have biblical warrant to look at symbolic references to stars, as the messengers of the Churches. ....and we know how they fall. They fall just as Israel fell.

Romans 11:11
  • "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."
Likewise the Church can, and does fall.

Hebrews 6:4-6
  • "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
  • And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
  • If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
If the messengers of the Church fall, they are the "stars falling." Selah! Just as Joseph dreamed the dream of the sons/children of Israel as 12 stars. There is nothing new here. God has always used this type of symbolism. The problem is not in what is (or is not) written, but in man's aversion to receiving it like I see many members here!

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Based on the words of Christ above, the stars are a symbol of angels in the Book of Revelation.
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BABerean2

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Well, there’s lot more I wanted to add but I tried to shorten as much as I could to stay on point and be specific to the question asked in this thread. Also I would like to keep it short for the sake of those who tend to skip reading any post if it’s a lengthy one. Anyway, thanks for posting those additional verses. :)

Based on Luke 21:24-28, there will be no time of national restoration after the fullness of the Gentiles.

How was the modern State of Israel created?
The answer is found below.


.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I did not say anything about the final fulfillment when there will be a new earth and new Jerusalem which happens upon Jesus return. In Luke 21:24, Jesus was talking about the end time signs and Israel coming back to their land is an end time signal

The birth of national Isreal of 1948 was not an end time sign. What sign did Jesus told us to watch for?

Luk 21:25-28
(25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
(26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
(27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Did God said that the signs in the sun, moon and stars are about Israel become a nation? No!

You need to find out what the sun, moon and stars represent as God DEFINED it in His Word. Do you know how to look for it instead of making speculation about Israel coming back to their land.

Jerusalem was indeed trampled underfoot for nearly two millennia then in our modern era, against impossible odds, came out from under the control of Gentiles. Is this not the fulfilment of Jesus’ word?

You got wrong Jerusalem to begin with. God did NOT talk about the physical city of Jerusalem.

Has there ever been a people who, after 1900 years of non-existence, emerged again in their country of origin as an independent, sovereign state?

"Non-existence?" In other words, a nation called Israel was non-existence on the world stage for 1900 years? Well, what did God said?

Jer 31:35-36
(35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
(36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Were the ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars still functioning for the past 1,900 years where Israel was not a nation? Humm? Who should we believe? God or you?

I think that you got wrong Israel! It is Covenant Israel - making up of all people in Christ from the Old and New Testament. Not national Israel. Selah!

Anyways, what I see in literal sense is what you see in symbolic way. So I can’t say more. Let God open my eyes to the truth if i’m not seeing what I ought to see. Good luck.

Luck has nothing to do with it. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and Spirit of God, so study thyself approved before God to find the Truth on this matter.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Based on the words of Christ above, the stars are a symbol of angels in the Book of Revelation.
.

Incorrect.

Two Things:

First, the Greek word [aggelos], which means Messenger. Yes, it is translated angel in places only because Angels are "messengers," and a translator may have thought of literal angel would be best in this case or that. But this is the very same word which spoke of John the Baptist as the "Messenger" of God.

Matthew 11:10
  • "For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee."
This word "translated" Messenger here is the EXACT same word [aggelos] as found in Revelation speaking of the seven angels/messengers in Revelation 1-3. There is no difference. You do understand that, don't you? Because many people cannot seem to get that part straight. There is no difference between the words. None at all! Was John the Baptist literally an Angel of God? No, he is a Messenger of God or an [aggelos] of God. The same as the seven [aggelos] of the seven Churches. You see if I was going by the King James version without regard for God's actual words, I would completely ignore the divinely inspired word used there and go with the translation. Let read the verse again:

Rev 1:20
(20) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Secondly, here, without ambiguity, God Himself tells us the secret mystery of the symbolism of what the stars in Revelation would illustrate. He says that these stars were to represent His Messengers (not angels) of the churches. And it is a mystery that was also revealed as always representing the people of His congregation! For example:

Daniel 8:10
  • "And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them."
Why would anyone think this refers to literal stars when we know literal stars cannot be cast down to the earth from heaven without "totally" destroying the earth. ..even a so-called small one. Obviously, this is symbolic language just as we see in Revelation, and the stars refer to the messengers of God's church on earth. Not literal stars or literal angels. When Daniel says these stars were cast down by the little horn, it refers to those of His congregation being overcome by Satan. Selah! Or again as indeed we saw in Revelation chapter 12.

Revelation 12:3-4
  • "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."
  • And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."
Here the same third part of the stars cast down in the time of Christ's coming refers to the same people of the Lord's congregation. It's no coincidence then that Revelation chapter 8 speaks of this great star from heaven burning as a lamp falling upon the third part of the rivers and fountains of waters. Learn the symbolism of Revelation chapter 12 and you need to learn the symbolism of Revelation chapter 8. There is no physical woman floating in physical heaven having 12 physical stars on her physical head or having 12 physical angels flying over her head, and Satan is not a physical Dragon, who has a great tail and is residing in physical heaven with this woman and casting down her literal stars to the literal earth. As we see in the "key" revealed in the beginning of Revelation (for our learning) the stars represent the messengers of the church. Satan casts them down by overcoming them where ultimately God brings judgment upon so that they are no longer representatives of the Kingdom of heaven. The Kingdom is in effect removed from them, as also is represented by Christ in passages such as Matthew 11:12 and 21:43. In these instances, the kingdom of heaven is representing God's congregation on earth (woman).

It is my view that the star is the messenger of the church as signified and plainly interpreted for us in Revelation 1-3; 1:20 by Christ. Who are they? They are the pastor, leader, minister, and you and me as messengers of the church, whom Christ addressed in Revelation chapter 2 and 3 saying that the star (messenger) of His church had fallen from its place, forgotten his first love, and pronounced dire consequences upon this messenger's church if he didn't repent. God tells this star.

Revelation 2:5
  • "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."
The Candlestick God Himself revealed "represented" the church. So here we see God clearly using the symbolic language of this star being His messenger and being a fallen star, and that he was to remember from where he had fallen, or else suffer God's judgment. This a precursor to Revelation chapter 8 and the star indeed does fall and judgment indeed does come upon his church. What was Christ's warning to this star? He said that if he didn't repent, He would bring the judgment of removing his candlestick (church) out of its place. So clearly / Unambiguously God is not talking about a literal star falling. This is the meaning of the symbolism of the star falling and this judgment upon the rivers and fountains of waters with this bitter poison of wormwood.
 
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BABerean2

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The Candlestick God Himself revealed "represented" the church. So here we see God clearly using the symbolic language of this star being His messenger and being a fallen star, and that he was to remember from where he had fallen, or else suffer God's judgment.

Jesus Christ cannot be "Incorrect".

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

.
 
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No, it is because you lack spiritual discernment of what God actually talked about. A fool could have been brainwashed by the Dispensationalism false prophets who are selling their doctrines that are as deadly as the hell.

1Co 2:12-14
(12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Two Witnesses are not who you have been taught by men, but who the Holy Ghost says who they are! Do you even know what the number two signifies in Scripture? Do you know what power did they received from God? Do you know how they will spew fire out of their mouths? Literally? Nope, you need to learn how to compare Scripture with Scripture:

Rev 11:3-5
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
(5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Compare with

Jer 5:14

(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Do you honestly think God is telling you that two individuals of Revelation 11 will have supernatural power to spew literal fire at their enemies? Think again. Rather, it is the Word of God in our testimony as fire, according to God's definiation, against our enemies who do not love the Truth. This is the power and great commission that the Two Witnesses comes with the Gospel to the whole world and it has been since Pentecost - - when the church received the power! Selah! Not I, but God said:

Act 1:8
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

AND here is another another example of your wrong doctrine on Revelation 16 about the beast and false prophet who spew frogs in Revelation 16. You think it will be literal event?

Rev 16:13-14
(13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
(14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Let me ask you, will there some physical frogs literally coming out of the mouths according to your and false prophets' doctrine? Or will you study Scripture to find God's definition of beast, false prophet, frogs, miracles, and the battle itself or will you read verses superficially and declare that these will be fulfilled literally? Humm?!



What is deadly as hell is doctrine that makes the scriptures out to be a vague and obscure text when they were written in a way to be made plainly understood by the reader. It is such doctrine that puts men at the mercy of the false teachers and false prophets. The Preterism you so adamantly hold to is such a doctrine making to appear obscure and vague that which was made plain.


“The Two Witnesses are not who you have been taught by men, but who the Holy Ghost says who they are! Do you even know what the number two signifies in Scripture? Do you know what power did they received from God? Do you know how they will spew fire out of their mouths? Literally? Nope, you need to learn how to compare Scripture with Scripture:…


Rev 11:3-5

(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

(5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.


Jer 5:14

(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Act 1:8

(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”


If the scriptures to which you compared Rev. 11:3-5 were also about the two witness, then I would say that you might have a case for your position but comparing scripture with scripture that is addressing unrelated matters does not in any way, shape, or form help your case.

If the two witnesses are not literal men endowed with supernatural powers who will appear during the tribulation for a time in the city of Jerusalem, are killed when their time is up, raised from the dead after a few days, and taken up to Heaven as presented by the text itself, then what else could they be? And if their ministry does not take place in Jerusalem, where else would it be? And if what kills them is not the literal Anti-Christ, then what kills them? And what is supposed to serve as their resurrection and ascension into Heaven?


“it is the Word of God in our testimony as fire, according to God's definiation, against our enemies who do not love the Truth.”


The preaching of the Word of God, even when comparable to fire, does not cause people, even the unrepentant, to burst into flames. When the prophet Jeremiah preached the Word the Lord had given him to the people of Judah, the people who heard it did not burst into flames and die. If that were the case, then God would not have needed Babylonians to punish the people of Judah for their persistent and unrepentant wickedness. He would have only needed Jeremiah as that vessel of judgment.

But the fire that comes out of the mouths of the two witnesses does kill people; the text makes that plain as day. This fire, as far as the context of Rev. 11:3-5 is concerned is not the words that come out of the mouths of the two witnesses, but actual fire that kills. I was not taught that by man by the way. That is how the text presented itself to me and how I have always understood it.



“AND here is another another example of your wrong doctrine on Revelation 16 about the beast and false prophet who spew frogs in Revelation 16. You think it will be literal event?

Rev 16:13-14

(13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

(14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Let me ask you, will there some physical frogs literally coming out of the mouths according to your and false prophets' doctrine? Or will you study Scripture to find God's definition of beast, false prophet, frogs, miracles, and the battle itself or will you read verses superficially and declare that these will be fulfilled literally? Humm?!”


A literal serpent deceived Eve in the garden into eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which God commanded her and Adam to not eat from, but which she then gave to Adam who, after eating of that fruit as well, brought sin, death, and the curse into this world. (Gen 3)

If Satan was not above either possessing or taking on the form of a serpent to deceive Eve, then the demons that follow him are not above taking on the form of frogs to deceive world leaders as described in Rev. 16:13-14.
 
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TribulationSigns

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The Preterism you so adamantly hold to is such a doctrine making to appear obscure and vague that which was made plain.

LOL. Me as a Preterist?! Despite the fact that you did read my posts today, you fail to read the part where I often declared that the doctrine of Preterism is false.

I am heading to bed now. Good night everyone.
 
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LOL. Me as a Preterist?! Despite the fact that you did read my posts today, you fail to read the part where I often declared that the doctrine of Preterism is false.

I am heading to bed now. Good night everyone.


The reason why I get that impression is because the views you were contending for in our debate seem similar to those held by those of a Preterist bent. They too take an allegorical and figurative approach to prophecies yet to come except they call them already fulfilled. Have a good night. I am sure I will hear from you again in the morning. If not, then it was fun having this spirited debate with you despite neither one of us changing the other's mind and probably never will.
 
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If not, then it was fun having this spirited debate with you despite neither one of us changing the other's mind and probably never will.

That is not my job to make up your mind. It is the job of the Holy Spirit. I am only a witness who has testified what Scripture declares as I did previously.
 
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