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Featured Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 19, 2019.

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  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No. I am asking you...

    Are you saying everyone born into this world is a gentile ?
    I can't find anything in my KJV speaking about DNA.

    There are text though that indicates....
    All Israel is not Israel
    All Israel shall be saved.

    Who is "All Israel" talking about?
     
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

    Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

    .
     
  3. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    It does not say "and eventually" coming on the clouds. This appears to be your addition to the text. Your changing the plain meaning to suit your eschatological bias.

    Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    Right, that is my point. They didn't literally see Jesus sitting at the right hand or coming on the clouds with their literal eyeballs. As I stated previously, the greek word for see doesn't always mean literal eye sight. It often means "to see with the mind or perceive spiritually".

    3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).

    You ignore both meaning of the Greek/Hebrew words and the original context of the OT scripture. so what I am supposed to show you?

    We must align Daniel 7:13 with the words of Jesus, Because Jesus is quoting Daniel 7:13 to the court of sanhedrin

    Daniel 7:13 states the son of man comes on the clouds of heaven TO the ancient of days.


    In Matthew 26:64, Jesus tells the court that from now on you will see him sitting at the right hand and coming on the clouds.

    When does Jesus enter the presence of the Father to receive authority and a kingdom? at His ascension or return?



    Again, you're changing the plain meaning of the original text from which Jesus is quoting. Daniel 7:13 doesn't say He's approaching 'us' as in humans. It states He approached the ancient of days and was led into His presence. Which way would that be, to heaven or to earth?

    What don't you understand about Daniel 7:13, which specifically and clearly states the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven and approaching the ancient of days?

    Daniel 7:13 In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.
    In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.

    the spirit was sent 50 days after Christ's resurrection, 10 days after his ascension.

    Jesus was crucified on passover

    Jesus rose again on the 3rd day, the day after the sabbath, which was the the feast of first fruits

    Leviticus 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD so that it may be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath.

    Matthew 28:1 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.



    The Spirit was sent at pentecost, which is 50 days after the feast of first fruits

    Leviticus 23:15-16 From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, you are to count seven full weeks. You shall count fifty days until the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then present an offering of new grain to the LORD.

    Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, the believers were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.


    My point is that the time for the kingdom to come occurred when Jesus ascended and satan was cast out. This would have been around the time when the Spirit was sent, which is in agreement with you.
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Genesis 17
    12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

    Seed = KJV DNA


    "All Israel" identified.

    Two Israels.

    Romans 9
    6
    Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Of Israel:
    Not all Israel
    The children of the flesh
    Not the children of God
    Not the children of the promise
    Not counted for the seed

    All Israel:
    Not of Israel
    Not the children of the flesh
    The children of God
    The children of the promise
    Counted for the seed

    Romans 11
    26
    And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Only one Israel shall be saved.

    All Israel.
     
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  5. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    It is essential to realize that modern Israel is not the true Israel of God but imposters who have usurped the birthright name Israel from the house of Israel, that lost their national identity when they were taken captive by the Assyrians from 745-717 BC. The people of Israel were dispersed among the nations and lost the knowledge of their ancestry, as it is still today.

    If we want to seek for the lost house of Israel, the only logical place to look is in the Christianized nations of the west that were established in Europe and the British Isles and spread from there to North America, then around the world. The mission of Jesus to the lost sheep of Israel, did not fail, but has had a resounding success!


    If the atheistic and communist Zionists had taken the name Judah for their nation, they would have been closer to the truth, but even then it would not have been the truth, for that nation is more aligned with the birthright claims of Esau and Ishmael than with the sceptre of Judah.

    Is the present-day Israel that rejects Christ producing the fruit of the Kingdom? No! Why? Because Jesus' judgment still stands: May no one ever eat fruit from you again! Matthew 21:19

    Pay close attention to Jesus' Word. Many today believe that the modern-day Israel will bear fruit simply because they claim to have the correct genes that make them God's chosen people. Genes do not make one God's chosen, faith does, regardless of one's race, color, gender or language.
     
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    If the land possession, under the old covenant, was not based on the nation of Israel's obedience to the law, then why was Israel kicked off the land by the Assyrians and Babylonians?

    I agree that obedience comes by faith and that no one is justified by the works of the Law. But faith in Christ did not come while the nation of Israel was held captive to the old covenant.

    Galatians 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.

    Israel was required to be obey all the commandments of the Law or otherwise face the curses of the law, which include being uprooted from the land.

    What does the Law say? IF YOU WILL NOT OBEY, then ALL THESE CURSES shall come upon you.

    Deuteronomy 28:15 But if you will not obey the voice of the LORD your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.

    Incorrect. The hebrew word for offspring in Genesis 35:12 is : וּֽלְזַרְעֲךָ֥ It is a singular noun. It is NOT a plural noun. Genesis 35:12 Hebrew Text Analysis

    Hence Paul states that the offspring is not offspringS, but refers to ONE, who is CHRIST.

    Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

    It is not through the Law that Abraham and his offspring (Christ and his body) would be heir of the world.

    Does the earth belong to Christ currently? If so, from where does Christ own the earth?
     
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Good post except for the BI.

    How would you recognize and identify the "lost house of Israel"? What would be its distinguishing characteristics?

    And don't tell us that "only God knows". God knows, and so do we, that, and I quote: "Genes do not make one God's chosen, faith does, regardless of one's race, color, gender or language."

    As you've said, "faith does".

    Plus obedience.

    Spiritual DNA.

    Exclusively.
     
  8. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    I just stated facts, and the fact is that Britain and the USA do have Ephraim and Manasseh Israelite roots. There IS evidence to support this. Also the rest of the European nations originated from other tribes.
    But for now, we are agreed that for us to identify a true Israelite, only their Christian faith is sufficient. That God does have a secret regarding the origins of His people, is not of concern to us.
     
  9. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Good, you understand and appear to even agree with the point I made then, that promises or moral issues that are prior and after the law are not affected by the initiation or removal of the Law.

    For example, the promises made to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and David are not affected by the initiation or removal of the Law.

    Not loving God or your neighbor is wrong whether the Law is present or removed.

    However, the nation if Israel was never unconditionally promised the physical land of Israel as an eternal possession. Israel was only given the land as a possession CONDITIONALLY under the old covenant.

    Only Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their offspring, who is Christ, were promised the land unconditionally.

    Right, because the promises to David are not a part of the Old covenant. The presence or absence of the old covenant does not affect the promises made to David, Just as the absence or presence of the old covenant does not affect the promises made to Abraham.

    If the promise of land restoration to the nation of Israel, after the curses had been poured out, was not found in the Law, I would say you have a point.

    However, we can clearly see that the promise of land restoration is found IN THE LAW OF MOSES. Thus any prophecy of land restoration, while the nation of Israel is under the old covenant, is rooted in the Law of moses.


    Deuteronomy 30:1-5 And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God has driven you, and return to the LORD your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. And the LORD your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.

    Jeremiah confirms that this promise, found in the law of moses, would be fulfilled following the Babylonian exile, in which the nation of israel was still UNDER THE OLD COVENANT.

    Jeremiah 29:10 “For thus says the LORD: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the LORD, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

    Did Israel return to the land under the old covenant, after the curses had been poured out, thus fulfilling Deuteronomy 30:1-5? YES

    Ezra 2:1 Now these were the people of the province who came up out of the captivity of those exiles whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried captive to Babylonia.

    Ezra 8:1 These are the heads of their fathers’ houses, and this is the genealogy of those who went up with me from Babylonia, in the reign of Artaxerxes the king:

    Psalm 85:1 LORD, you were favorable to your land; you restored the fortunes of Jacob.

    Do you believe David will literally be Israel's prince forever or does it point to Jesus?

    Ezekiel 37:25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever.

    Jews have lived in land of Israel for the last 2,000 years. 1948 fulfills prophecy because the world now recognizes it as a country?

    There is not one prophecy that mentions a 2nd exile followed by a 2nd regathering to the land. So not sure which of these prophesies 1948 actually fulfills.

    Which promises of the old covenant were unconditional?

    Why would Peter have expected it to be imminent? Would it because Jesus said "this generation will not pass away before all these things happen" ?

    Peter's argument is that God lives outside of time, thus a 1000 years like a day AND a day a like a 1000 years, not that it will be thousands of years until Christ comes.


    and yet you cannot explain why Paul, Peter, James, and John all talked about the end being at hand.

    IF you mean Israel, as in those who are in Christ, then I agree.

    You believe 2,000 year old apostles are walking around right now?
     
  10. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And via genetic ubiquity, so does all of the rest of the world.

    Good. For now, and for always.
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
    Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    .
     
  12. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    And the Apostles did just that; we Christians are the result.

    Have you ever heard of the missing chapter 29 Acts of the Apostles?

    220 years ago, this missing chapter of the Book of Acts, written in the same Greek as the rest of the New Testament, was found in the archives of the Sultan, in Istanbul by Frenchman; C.S. Sonnini. It was translated and printed in 1801.
    There are other proofs of Pauls visit to Britain, in the writings of the Early Church Fathers and in many oral traditions of England.

    Note that in the last two verses of Acts 28:30-31, Paul was free in Rome and he stayed there for two full years. Then......nothing more?
    The Bible does not tell us the time and manner of Paul’s death, but we can be sure, he didn’t just retire and tend his garden! If he was beheaded by Nero, as some speculate, surely the Bible would have told us that. Anyway beheading wasn’t Nero’s style. No; Acts infers a departure from Rome....to where?

    Acts 29:1 And Paul full of the blessings of Christ and abounding in the Spirit, departed out of Rome, determining to go to Spain, for he had for a long time purposed to go there and was minded also to go from there into Britain.

    2/ For he had heard in Phoenicia that certain of the children of Israel, at the time of the Assyrian captivity, had escaped by sea to ‘the isles afar off’, as spoken by the prophet, [Jeremiah 31:10] and called by the Romans, Britain.

    3/ As the Lord Commanded, the Gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles and to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

    4/ And no man hindered Paul, for he testified boldly of Jesus before the Tribunes and among the people. He took with him certain of the brethren who were with him in Rome. They took ship at Ostium and having the winds fair, were brought safely into a port of Spain.

    5/ Many people gathered from the towns and the hill country, for they had heard of the conversion of Paul and the many miracles he had done.

    6/ Paul preached mightily in Spain and a great multitude believed and became Christian, for they perceived that he was an Apostle sent by God.

    7/ Then Paul and his company departed out of Spain, finding a ship in Armorica sailing to Britain, they went on it and passing along the south coast arrived in a port called Raphinus. [Portsmouth]

    8/ Now when it was noised abroad that the Apostle had landed, great multitudes of the inhabitants met him and they treated Paul courteously as he entered their town by the East gate and lodged in the home of a Hebrew, one of his own kin. Romans 16:13

    9/ Then they travelled to the main town of Britain, [Londinium] Paul stood upon Mount Lud, [Ludgate hill, where St Pauls Cathedral now stands] and the crowds thronged in Broadway as he preached Christ to them and many believed the Word and the Testimony of Jesus.

    10/ In the evening the holy Ghost fell upon Paul and he prophesied, saying: ‘Behold, in the last days the God of peace shall dwell in this place and the citizens shall be numbered, then in the seventh numbering of the people, their eyes shall be opened and the glory of their inheritance will shine forth before them. Nations shall come up to worship on the mount that testifies to the patience and longsuffering of the servants of the Lord’.

    11/ And in the latter days, new tidings of the Gospel shall issue forth out of Jerusalem and the hearts of the people will rejoice. Behold fountains will be opened and there will be no more plagues.

    12/ In those days there shall be wars and rumours of wars and a king shall rise up, his Sword will be the healing of the nations, his Peace-making shall abide and the glory of his kingdom a wonder to the world. [The Millennium Kingdom of Jesus]


    13/ Then some of the Druids came to Paul privately and showed to Paul by their rites and ceremonies that they were descended from Israel, who had escaped from their bondage in the land of Egypt. The Apostle believed them and he gave them the kiss of peace.

    13/ Paul stayed in his lodging for three months, preaching the Gospel continually and confirming those in the faith.

    15/ After this Paul and his friends sailed from there to Atium in Gaul. [France]

    16/ There Paul preached in the Roman garrisons and among the people, exhorting all to repent and to confess their sins.

    17/ There came to him some of the Belgae, [North Europeans] to enquire of him about this new doctrine and about the man Jesus. Paul opened his heart to them and told them all that had befallen him and how Christ Jesus had come into the world to save sinners. They departed, pondering among themselves the things they had heard.

    18/ After much preaching and toil, Paul and his labourers passed into Helvetia, [Switzerland] and came to Mount Pontius Pilate, where he who had condemned Jesus had dashed himself down headlong, so perishing miserably.

    19/ Then a torrent gushed out of the mountain and washed his broken body into a lake.

    20/ Paul stretched forth his hands over the water and prayed to the Lord: “O Lord God, give a sign that here Pontius Pilate, who condemned your only begotten Son, has gone down into the pit.”

    21/ As Paul was speaking, there came a great earthquake and the sign of the Cross was formed upon the lake.

    22/ A Voice came from heaven saying, “Even Pilate has escaped the wrath to come, because he washed his hands before the crowd at the blood shedding of Jesus.”

    23/ When therefore, Paul and those who were with him, saw the earthquake and heard the Voice, they glorified God and were mightily strengthened in spirit.

    24/ They journeyed on and came to Mt Julius, [the Julian Alps, now the Dolomites] where there stood two pillars; right and left, erected by Caesar Augustus,

    25/ Then Paul filled with the Holy Spirit, stood between those two pillars and said, “Men and brethren, these stones you see here shall testify of my travels to here and I say with certainty that they will remain until the outpouring of the Spirit onto all nations and the way, [the Gospel] will not be hindered throughout all generations.”

    26/ They went forth and come to Illyricum, [the Balkan area; Romans 15:19] where they prospered and had peace, as grace was found in all the churches.
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    It is bad enough that you ignored the text of Matthew 10:5-7, where Christ told the Apostles not to go to the Gentiles, but to Israel instead.

    Now you are promoting a "lost" book of the Bible, in order to make British-Israelism work...


    .
     
  14. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    It WAS to Israel and not the Jews, that the Apostles went. This is crystal clear from how Paul did his best to preach to the Jews, but they hated him, so he turned to non Jews, the ones that had an Israelite heritage and who gladly accepted the Gospel.

    Re Acts 29, I make no claim for it to be Divinely inspired, but it is an ancient document that helps to confirm the fact of the Gospel being taken to England circa 50 AD.
     
  15. pasifika

    pasifika Active Member

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    Hello,
    (1) God didn't change the criteria of possessing the promise land...He given it through a PROMISE...

    The law given through Moses 430 years later does not change that Promise ...Galatians 3:17

    The reason why they (Israelites )got kicked out because the One (Christ ) the land was spoken to (Gen 12) has Not come to the land yet..."We are All waiting for Him"

    (2) You said..." Faith in Christ Jesus did not come while the nation of Israel was held captive to the Old covenant "...

    That is a very SAD AND UNTRUE STATEMENT TO MAKE...MAKING GOD TO BE UNFAIR TO THE NATION OF ISRAEL AT THAT TIME...

    NOTICE :
    FAITH, is the hope of mankind after the fall in Genesis, But that Faith did Not manifested until Jesus of Nazareth...

    Maybe a good read of Hebrews 11, gives examples of people from ABEL to NOAH to ABRAHAM to MOSES to SA MUEL to DAVID, The PROPHETS etc who put their Faith in Christ (Messiah )..."

    ALL THEIR FAITH WERE CREDITED AS "RIGHTEOUSNESS"

    So Galatians 3:23..even we or they are under the control of sin, as shown by the law (old covenant ) their hope is in Christ - This is "The Faith " as to say...







     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Joh_8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;


    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


    Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
    Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Those verses don't mention DNA. deoxyribonucleic acid.
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Gregor Mendel never knew anything about DNA, since it is a modern discovery.
    Are you claiming Mendel knew nothing about genetics?




    Did you pay attention during High School Biology class, or did your teacher skip the unit on genetics?

    Do you look like your mother, or father, in any way?


    G1076
    γενεαλογία
    genealogia
    ghen-eh-al-og-ee'-ah
    From the same as G1075; tracing by generations, that is, “genealogy”: - genealogy.
    Total KJV occurrences: 2

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Right, so The current land of Israel is not an everlasting possession then.
    It will be REPLACED with a new one.
     
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  20. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Please show scripture that specifically states the nation of Israel, under the old covenant, was kicked off of the land because Jesus had not yet come to the land in order to substantiate your claim.

    We can show that you are simply incorrect as Scripture is very clear that Israel was kicked off the land due to their disobedience to the Law of Moses:

    Nehemiah 1:8 Remember, I pray, the word that You commanded Your servant Moses when You said, ‘If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the nations.

    Daniel 9:11 All Israel has transgressed Your law and turned away, refusing to obey Your voice; so the oath and the curse written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, has been poured out on us because we have sinned against You.

    Deuteronomy 28:15 But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you

    My statement of "faith in Christ did not come while the nation of Israel was held captive to the Old covenant" is the same as your statement "that Faith did not manifested until Jesus of Nazareth".

    We are in agreement, so I'm not sure how my statement is "very sad and untrue" because that would make your statement "very sad and not true", as well as Paul's statement in Galatians 3:23:

    Galatians 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.

    Not fair? The potter has every right to make one vessel for special use while others for common.
    Who are you say what's fair and what's not?


    Romans 9:19-21 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

    I'm not arguing that God's elect didn't have faith in him for salvation through the mystery that would later be made manifested through Christ.

    I agree that they did.

    The point was that faith in Christ did not come/was not manifested while the nation of Israel was captive under the Law. The elect of the nation of Israel kept their faith in God that He would provide salvation for them, even if they didn't fully understand how. While the non-elect would either forsake the law (Israel sent into Exile by Babylon and Assyria) or depend on the works law for righteousness and justification (example: Pharisees, saducees).

    Abraham recognized that he was a stranger and exile on the land, for he was looking for a HEAVENLY country

    Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the land. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

    God told the nation of Israel that they were strangers and sojourners, even in the land.

    Leviticus 25:23 The land shall not be sold in perpetuity, for the land is mine. For you are strangers and sojourners with me

    King David, who lived in the land of promise, states that he and all of Israel were FOREIGNERS AND SOJOURNERS just as ALL OUR FOREFATHERS were.

    1 Chronicles 29:15 For we are foreigners and sojourners in Your presence, as were all our forefathers. Our days on earth are like a shadow, without hope.
     
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