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Featured Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 19, 2019.

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  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.


    Who does one think thy people are meaning here? And what land is being inherited forever? And finally, when does one feel these things initially get fulfilled?

    If we back up in the chapter, we do see this.

    Isaiah 60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

    I would think thy people meant in verse 21 are the same ones God said this about in verse 10---for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
     
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Your problem is that the text from Revelation 12 comes after "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:15-18, which proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

    .
     
  3. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    These are very good questions DavidPT. I believe addressing them in a different orders helps.

    'When' helps us the most. I would say the 'when' occurs with the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth.

    We see the restored nation of Israel corresponds to the New Jerusalem.

    The nations will come to the light of Israel/New Jerusalem, and the gates of Israel/New Jerusalem will never be shut

    Isaiah 60:3, 11 And nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. Your gates shall be open continually; day and night they shall not be shut, that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations, with their kings led in procession.

    Revelation 20:24-25 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.

    God is the light of Israel/New Jerusalem.

    Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more your light by day,nor for brightness shall the moon
    give you light; but the Lord will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory.c

    Revelation 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.

    There's no doubt it's prophesying about a future Israel.

    Now who this future Israel is, is a whole different argument.

    Is the future Israel being prophesied of only the biological descendants of Abraham? If so, that would make most people on the planet today, Israel, as Abraham's DNA is ubiquitous.

    Is the future Israel being prophesied of the body of Christ? I would argue this one fits the bill more. Paul is very clear that those who belong to Christ, regardless of race, are Abraham's seed AND HEIRS.

    Galatians 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

    As shown above, using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that the future restored Israel, as prophesied in Isaiah matches, the New Jerusalem. Upon further examination, we can confirm, using scripture to interpret scripture, that the New Jerusalem is the body of Christ. This is in agreement with Paul's words in galatians 3:29

    1.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are the Bride of the lamb
    Revelation 20:9-10 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

    Ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

    2.)Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are built on the foundations of the prophets
    Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone

    3.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are where God dwells with his people.
    Revelation 21:3 Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God

    Ephesians 2:21 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

    2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Based on Scripture evidenced above, I would argue the identity of the future restored Israel is the body of Christ, which consists of Jew and grafted in gentile.

    From a futurist interpretation, it wouldn't be the same present physical land that was promised to Abraham. It would be land in the new heavens and new earth, which has no sea. This would be inherited by those who are not thrown in the lake of fire.

    From a preterist perspective, it would be the same present land that Abraham saw. Jesus currently owns the land of Israel from heaven, thus believers are co heirs with Christ IN heaven.


    I would agree. It was Israel who disobeyed the old covenant, which resulted in the curses of the law being poured out. It was then through Israel that Christ came and redeemed, not only them, but the world.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
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  4. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Yes, it was ancient Israel that God 'smote; by allowing the Assyrians to conquer and to exile them out of the Land. They are now scattered around the world, but are identifiable by the fact it is them who have accepted the Salvation of Jesus, the people He came to save, Matthew 15:24
    The people of Judah, the current Jewish people, have had a different history and will have a different final outcome. Matthew 8:11

    You ask: And what land is being inherited forever? And finally, when does one feel these things initially get fulfilled? Quote.
    The Land given to the Patriarchs, all that area from the Nile to the Euphrates.

    When? I believe within the next few years. I base that on the 2000 year period of the Church age, the exact time between Jesus' 2 Advents.
    Also on the current world situation; sinfulness abounding and how Iran will do what they have threatened to; attack Israel. That will be their doom and the changer of all the world.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
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  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Why is that a problem?

    In Revelation 11:15-18, the time had come for the judgment of the dead, to give the saints and prophets their rewards.

    Which will be all them of the dead in Christ, their bodies redeemed in the resurrection/rapture will have their lives judged in heaven for what they did for the cause of Christ - while the great tribulation takes place on earth.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  6. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for taking the time to post this. very insightful IMO. I'm thinking we are on the same page about a lot of what you submitted, assuming I didn't misunderstand you altogether instead. And since it appears we both agree this is still future to us, I did also have another reason for wanting to bring this up. Since the era of time in Isaiah 60:9-22 involves a future time still ahead of us, what does one do with verse 12 in that case? I would think that verse would have to be applicable to the period of time in mind. And since the NHNE will be for forever, I wouldn't think the threat found in verse 12 applies to forever as well. Something has to put an end to the threat eventually. Maybe Revelation 20 is the answer?

    IOW the events of Revelation 20 run in parallel with the beginning of the NHNE, and not that the events of Revelation 20 precedes the beginning of the NHNE? Keeping in mind, verse 12 has to fit somewhere. And it's looking like to me it is being applied to the time of the NHNE.

    Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
     
  7. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I can see myself agreeing with a lot of what you said here. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Thanks for posting this. It too is insightful.
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The judgment of the dead occurs at the Second Coming of Christ.


    Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
    Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than
    Solomon is here.

    Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


    2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    .
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    At the great white throne judgement after the 1000 years are finished, Revelation 20:11-15.
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

    When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation chapter 20?



    2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

    2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.



    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    If you cut 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Peter 3:10-13, and Revelation 11:18 out of your Bible, maybe you can make your premill doctrine work.



    .
     
  11. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, I thought you brought up some very good questions, especially in relation to the OP.

    We have a lot to agree on, which is good, considering you lean towards premil (correct me if I am wrong) and I lean towards partial preterism.

    We appear to agree that the restored Israel of Isaiah 60 is the body of Christ in the new heavens and new hearth, which consist of Jew and grafted in gentile.

    However, we most likely disagree on the timing of the new heavens and new earth and what the new heavens and earth actually are.


    I believe the old heavens and earth are related to the old covenant relationship that the nation of Israel had with God, which was made obsolete at the cross, but completely removed at Jerusalem's destruction, with the coming of Christ on the clouds IN JUDGMENT on Jerusalem.

    I believe the new heavens and earth are related to the new covenant relationship that the body of Christ/restored Israel/New Jerusalem has with God. I believe that prior to this relationship, no one went to heaven to be with the Father, but now in the new heavens and earth we are no longer separated from the Father on earth (his footstool) ,and upon death when we go to heaven (his throne).


    God has been destroying nations and kingdoms that do not serve him for thousands of years.

    Isaiah 60:12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish; it will be utterly destroyed.

    God wiped out the world with a flood.
    God used the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites
    God used the Assyrians to destroy the 10 northern tribes
    God used the Babylonians to destroy the 2 southern tribes
    God used the Persians to destroy the Babylonians
    God used the Greeks to end to the Persian empire
    God used the Romans to end the Greek empire
    And Christ came during the Roman Empire to put away sin by His sacrifice

    Isaiah 60:12 tells us one of possibly two things, 1.) the nations/kingdoms that will not serve God, WILL NOT ENTER the new heavens and earth, but be utterly destroyed OR 2.) the nations/kingdoms that do not serve God DURING the new heavens and earth will be utterly destroyed.

    Futurists will typically, not always, lean towards option 1, while preterists will typically, not always, lean towards option 2.

    According to revelation, the nations will still need healing, and wickedness will still be outside of the New Jerusalem/body of Christ/restored Israel.

    Revelation 22:2 down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

    Revelation 22:15 But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

    Based on that, I would argue that option 2, nations/kingdoms that do not serve God DURING the new heavens and earth will be utterly destroyed, is a more appropriate option.

    If revelation didn't mention nations needing to be healed or wickedness existing outside of the New Jerusalem, option 1 would probably more appropriate.

    Thus, from a partial preterist perspective, the NHNE were ushered in with complete removal of the old covenant system in 70ad. Since then, the body of Christ has been a light to the world. It is where God's throne is and where he dwells with his people forever, whether they are on earth or in heaven. During this time, nations that don't serve God have been destroyed and empires have ended. Many empires have come and gone since 70ad, but the body of Christ, the royal, priesthood nation, has never been destroyed, nor can it every be.


    I agree, that Isaiah 60:12 would occur during the NHNE.

    So do you, as a premil, believe the land promised as an eternal possession to Abraham and his offspring is the present land that he saw, or is pointing to land in the NHNE?


    While I agree, revelation is full of parallel accounts, the problem with this is that Revelation 20 ends with the heaven and earth fleeing.

    Revelation 20:11 hen I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.
     
  12. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “The old covenant was a contract between the nation of Israel and God. If Israel would obey ALL of the commandments of the Law of Moses, then God would bless Israel (Deuteronomy 28: 1-14). If Israel would not obey ALL of the commandments of the Law of Moses, then God would curse the nation of Israel (Deuteronomy 28:15-68), which included being uprooted from the land. But as we see throughout the OT, no one could keep ALL of the righteous requirements of the Law…


    The promises and the curses of the law were a part of the conditional contract (old covenant) that required full obedience. However, since this contract has been removed, the promises and curses have been removed as well. They have been replaced with better promises under the New covenant.”



    Just because the Old Covenant in and of itself may have been done away with, that does not mean all things within the Old Covenant were done away with as well and that includes any promises the Lord has made. And one promise that has not been done away with has been the promise of restoration when the people of Israel repent and turn to God once more because He has made promises to the nation and people of Israel that He has not made to any other nation or people; promises that will last forever.



    He will not forsake them:
    1 Sam. 12:22
    Ps. 94:14
    Is. 44:21, 49:15
    Nor allow them to be destroyed:
    Mal. 3:6
    But they will be forever His people:
    2 Sam. 7:24
    1 Chr. 17:22
    Whom He has promised to preserve forever:
    Jer. 31:35-37, 33:20-26


    What would be a great discussion and even a Bible study topic would be what was done away with when the Old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant and what was carried over into the New Covenant but that is for another thread.



    “…the reconciliation of the world to God through Christ is the reality.”



    Yes and as it has been written, if the Jew’s rejection of Christ was turned around to bring about the reconciliation of the world to God, how much more so when they turn from their rejection of Him to receiving of Him as their Messiah? (Rom. 11:12)



    “So you believe the old covenant is still contractually in effect between God and the nation of Israel?”



    The Old Covenant system, in and of itself, no. But the promises made concerning the nation and people of Israel, yes. As I have said, it would make for an informative Bible study and another thread topic about what ended with Old Covenant and what was carried over from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant.



    “So you believe David is the shepherd and not Jesus? I disagree. I believe Jesus is the "one shepherd". I believe David points to Jesus.”



    There are some who would place the title of David upon Christ and there are those who believe that Christ will set David as a king over Israel. But because that prophecy has not yet come to pass, we will not know which viewpoint will be vindicated for sure.



    If scripture could be read straight forward and understood from a literal interpretation, Jesus would not have had to open the minds of the disciples to understand the scriptures.



    But scripture can be read straight forward and understood from a literal interpretation but the reason why so many are blinded to that fact is because they cling to the opinions of self-professed scholars and theologians and accept them as doctrine, having not learned to follow the example of the Bereans of whom it was said “searched the scriptures daily” to determine whether what they were being taught was true. (Acts 17:11)



    Official recognition as an independent country doesn't fulfill prophecy. When the nation of Israel returned from the Babylonian exile, as promised, they weren't recognized as an official independent country by the Persian empire.


    That they are officially a recognized and independent nation is a fulfillment of prophecy. (Ezek. 37:22) Their official recognition as an independent nation is proof of this. The next thing to happen will be their spiritual renewal made complete in Christ when He returns.



    God knows the difference between near and distant and He knows how to explain it to us.

    The angel told Daniel to seal up the vision for it concerned for what would occur many days from now. There are typically 2 interpretations to Daniel 8: 1.) Antiochus Ephiphanes or 2.) the end times antichrist. If Daniel 8 is about Antiochus epiphanies, then "many days from now" means a couple hundred years. If it is about the end times antichrist, then "many days from now" means + 2,500 years.

    John is told not to seal up the prophecy, as the time is near. If the correct interpretation of Daniel 8 is about Antiochus epiphanies, that means "the time is near" in revelation should be less than a couple hundred years. If the correct interpretation of Daniel 8 is the end times antichrist, then "the time is near" meaning +2,000 years contradicts the "many days from now" being +2,500 years because there's not really a difference between +2,500 years and +2,000 years in order to say one is near and the other is for the distant future.



    Daniel may have been somewhat of a time frame (70 weeks) but John was not. The 69th week of Daniel is a week like no other in that it is an indefinite week and this may be due to several factors.

    It could have ended in their day and it could end any time in our day which is why every generation between now and the return of our Lord needs to make sure that they are ready for the day that He does return.



    Peter states that a day is like 1000 years AND 1000 years like a day. Peter does NOT ONLY say 1000 years is a day.



    Peter knew that the Lord could have returned in his day and just as easily a thousand years later. Otherwise, why would Peter have made that statement?




    “God could easily tell us Jesus' coming in judgment upon the nation of Israel would be many days or in a distant future. But he doesn't. He says soon and "this generation will not pass away.”



    The judgment upon Israel was not the coming of Jesus. When Jesus does return, He will bring deliverance to Israel and the rest of the elect and judge a wicked and unrepentant world.



    “John himself rejects your statement



    John 21:23 So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”


    John does not reject my statement. I never said for sure that John was presently alive on the earth. I only said that because of what Jesus said concerning him, the possibility that he could still be alive cannot be ruled out. If Jesus did not leave that possibility open, then there would be no reason for me to either.



    “…the disciples did live through wars and rumors of wars, persecution, false prophets, earthquakes, famines, and the gospel spreading across the known world. There is ample evidence in scripture and history to confirm these events happened in the 1st century.”



    The known world was not the entire world. And what historical evidence is there that they witnessed numerous wars, nations rising against nation and kingdom and against kingdom? In their day, the Roman empire had no rivals.

    And what famines (other than the one that the prophet Agabus had foretold) did they witness and in how many places around the world did they occur? How many earthquakes took place in their day, and how widespread were they? They did not witness the increase in immorality and wickedness that we have witnessed and though there were false prophets in their day, we have seen many more false prophets, false teachers, and false Messiahs than they did.




    “James states the coming of the Lord is NEAR. he also states the judge IS STANDING ( present tense verb) at the door.”




    Despite this, none of the Apostles attempted to declare an exact date of the Lord’s return because they were specifically told that the time would not be known despite the fact that there have been others since then who have declared to know the time only to be proven liars.
     
  13. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The process explained about what led up to the restoration of Israel as a nation is informative but the Rothschild interview does not speak for all Jews in regards to whom they give credit for their being restored as a nation. There are in fact an adequate number of Jews who do give credit to God for the restoration of Israel, even from that generation and despite Israel’s present secular nature, the religious community of the nation still wields a lot of influence over Israel and its culture despite being a minority.

    That minority, however, is destined to grow into a majority. The prophet Ezekiel foretold of the restoration of Israel as a nation thousands of years before it came to pass. (Ezek. 37:22) And who cares about what means God used to fulfill that prophecy? What matters is that it came to pass.
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    One verse taken out of its context does not prove your point.

    That passage is about the future resurrection, and judgment of the dead, described by Christ in John 5:27-30.

    It is also about the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

    The land that they inherit is found in Hebrews 11:15-16.


    Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
    Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
    Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
    Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
    Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
    Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
    Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
    Eze 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
    Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
    Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
    Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
    Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
    Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, (See John 5:27-30)
    Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
    Eze 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
    Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
    Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. (See Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
    Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
    Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
    Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
    Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
    Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
    Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. (See Jeremiah 31:31-34)
    Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. (See Matthew 1:1)
    Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
    (See Matthew 1:1)

    Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
    (See Hebrews 13:20 for the "everlasting" covenant.)
    Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    (Who is the "tabernacle" in the New Testament?)

    Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. (How long is "forever"?)

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  15. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    One verse taken out of its context does not prove your point.

    That passage is about the future resurrection, and judgment of the dead, described by Christ in John 5:27-30.


    It proves my point exactly and that with the existence of Israel as a nation once more does more than enough to prove my point. The passage you quoted in the Gospel of John has nothing to do with what the prophet Ezekiel was describing. The resurrection that Ezekiel saw in the vision given to him was not a literal resurrection but a resurrection representing the restoration of the people of Israel as a nation once more.

    It not only describes their physical restoration to the land, but the next thing to come is their spiritual restoration which will be completed when they receive Jesus as their Messiah.

    The resurrection that John is describing is a literal resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked; the righteous living for eternity in the resurrection of life and the wicked in the resurrection of eternal damnation. It is of no relation to Ezekiel chapter 37 which speaks specifically about a restoration and revival of a people and a nation.


    The land that they inherit is found in Hebrews 11:15-16.


    Ezekiel’s vision pertains to an earthly nation that God made of a specific people and of a land to which He gave to a specific people. Hebrews 11:15-16 speaks of Heaven itself where God dwells and in which all who are in Christ are made citizens regardless of ethnicity, nationality, social or economic status, gender, or skin color.


    (How long is "forever"?)



    Forever is never ending.



    (See Hebrews 13:20 for the "everlasting" covenant.)



    It is that everlasting covenant that all promises are fulfilled (earthly and heavenly)



    (Who is the "tabernacle" in the New Testament?)



    When Christ comes to the earth to reign, it is made clear that throughout various passages of scripture that He will be reigning from a temple where He carries out His role as both King over all the earth and as High Priest, but when the new heavens and new earth are created and the New Jerusalem descends from out of Heaven, there will be no temple because Christ and the Father will be that temple. (Rev. 21:22)
     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Your confusion seems to come from the belief that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order.

    However, since Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know this cannot be correct.

    We also find "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.


    The Apostle Paul reveals that Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.


    Peter also says the fire comes on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief", in 2 Peter 3:10-13.


    When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

    When does the judgment of the dead come in Revelation chapter 20?

    How many mortals are left alive on the planet after Matthew 25:31-46?

    Are you saying a whole nation of people will be converted to Christ, based on bloodline, or geographic boundaries?
    Are you attempting to promote the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology?

    Have you changed the word "so" to the word "then" in Romans 11:26?


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    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  17. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    the Great White Throne Judgment comes after the building of a millennial kingdom though the New Testament congregation if finished. The number 1,000, in Revelation, is symbolic, which means fullness of whatever is in view. Not your literal 1,000 years kingdom theory in the future. The judgment will not come until the fullness of church building is compete and then the Great Tribulation period.
     
  18. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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  19. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (Experienced technical difficulties on the first attempted response. Hopefully this one will turn out in a better format)



    “Your confusion seems to come from the belief that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order.



    However, since Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know this cannot be correct.”




    The Book of Revelation does have a chronological order to it. After John finishes writing about the vials of God’s wrath entail, the last being just before Christ is set to return, in chapters 17 and 18, he then shifts his focus to the destruction of Babylon (both the metaphorical and literal Babylons) and then afterwards, the focus shifts back to the return of Christ and what will happen when He returns.


    Shifts in focus to happen from time to time throughout the book of Revelation, but that does not take away from the fact that there is a chronological order to it; it presents itself accordingly.






    “We also find "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.”






    That final judgment does not happen until the Great Whit Throne judgment which will take place after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth.






    “The Apostle Paul reveals that Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.”






    When it comes to any given topic addressed in scripture there will be passages that will have more to say about that topic than others which is why it is only when we study the entirety of scripture on any given matter that we are given the clarity we need and this particular case is no different. Paul is simply giving a detail pertaining to the return of Christ that John does not and vice versa.






    “Peter also says the fire comes on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief", in 2 Peter 3:10-13.”






    And yet there is a 1,000 year intermission between the return of Christ and the day that this present earth is destroyed by the fire of which Peter speaks.






    “When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?
    When does the judgment of the dead come in Revelation chapter 20?”





    The fire that incinerates this present universe and the final judgment of the dead is found in Revelation 20:7-15. It is just that Peter tells us more about the destruction of this present earth by fire than John does.






    “How many mortals are left alive on the planet after Matthew 25:31-46?”






    The mortals left over are those people and nations that Christ welcomes into His Kingdom on earth.






    “Are you saying a whole nation of people will be converted to Christ, based on bloodline, or geographic boundaries?”





    It is about the fulfillment of promise. A specific set of promises were made to Israel which will be made manifest and completed in them who receive Jesus when He returns. And the promises to Israel do include land with geographical boundaries which are destined to expand.


    If the promises made to them are not fulfilled, then we ourselves cannot have confidence in the promises made to us.



    “Are you attempting to promote the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology?”




    There is the children of God which are they who are in Christ and then there are the children of the promise who are not the children of God (Rom. 9:8) but because they are of the lineage of Abraham to whom the promises were first made, the promise of preservation is naturally extended yet the fulfillment of those promises (earthly and spiritual) will be made complete in the Jews who welcome Jesus as their Messiah when He returns.


    “Have you changed the word "so" to the word "then" in Romans 11:26?”



    Red herrings and semantics will not get you anywhere.
     
  20. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sorry, a BIG NOPE! The book of Revelation is in no way chronological in its order of things revealed in imagery. For example:

    1.) Christ is in the church in Revelation 2
    2.) The sealing of Israel ends in Revelation 7
    3.) And Christ is born in Revelation 12.

    Likewise, I believe that these seven vials being poured out run concurrently. In other words, we are receiving in Revelations, seven portraits of the same event, each revealing a different aspect of what will be taking place. Much like having seven portraits of the American Revolutionary War, each showing a different aspect of that one war, by a different picture. Or as Christ is seen as the Vine in one place to highlight one thing, the Lamb of God in another place to highlight another, and the Holy Temple to highlight still something else. It's not three separate prophesies of Christ, it's simply using different imagery to illustrate Him as the true Israel (Vine), that He is the Sacrifice (Lamb), and that He is House of God (Temple) in whom we dwell. In this same way these seven vials are numbered to seven to signify "completion" (as the 7 churches or angels or spirits, etc.), while these judgment plagues are one judgment, the portraits concurrent. They are all one event.

    Look at the pains and sores of Revelation 16:11 poured out in the 5th vial. You can see the same sores poured out in the first vial. Or as the 3rd vial poured out made the waters and rivers turn to blood, and the 2nd vial poured out on the sea had already made it turn to blood. Did God do the seas first and then go to the rivers and fountains? Not at all, it's the same event of bringing death, but highlighting different aspects of this judgment. The plagues are operating simultaneously upon the earth and they are spoken of as seven to instruct us of the completeness of God's wrath upon them. This is the end time judgment wherein every stone of the Temple will be thrown down, the kingdom becomes void of the life of light, and this signified by blood and darkness, as there is now no healing for the torment of pain and sores. The reason is that the whole house of Israel has been sealed, the testimony of the two witnesses is finished and the day has come when no man can work. There is no repentance by them for their abominations and they continue to blasphemy because the Lord has cut them off.
     
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