Is sex before marriage wrong?

[hedrick]

It's true, white evangelicals have higher divorce rates than either Catholics or mainline Protestants.
....
The highest divorce rates are in the "Bible Belt":

Divorce Rates for Atheists Lower Than Christians

It is an unfortunate problem that Christian ethics seems to have little impact on actual behavior in this area (and a number of others). What really determines behavior seems to have more to do with socio-economic group and education.

Of course this doesn't affect what is actually ethical.

 

[FireDragon76]

It is an unfortunate problem that Christian ethics seems to have little impact on actual behavior in this area (and a number of others). What really determines behavior seems to have more to do with socio-economic group and education.

Of course this doesn't affect what is actually ethical.

That's true but for a long time, the American magisterium of Evangelicalism has been claiming it has a market cornered on family values. One would expect if this were the case, that Evangelicals actual families would be in better shape.

I can say in my own church, people do get divorced but its rare. I think our realistic ethics, which have been criticized here, have alot to do with it. We expect people will not live up to our ideals, and that is why we offer people a community centered on the proclamation of God's forgiveness.

 

[FireDragon76]

And this you say in a thread while defending fornication.

Hey, at least the white Evangelists had the decency to get married.

I don't have to defend "fornication", "fornication" happens, even among the most devout Christians. The question is, how does the Church respond? Judging people, telling them they aren't welcome? Or giving them realistic advice? Just doubling down on the beatings won't improve morale, you know.

 

[hedrick]

Hmm.

What is inappropriate contenteia to a 1st Century Jew?

It doesn't appear that OT citations actually answer this question completely. If I can believe my lexicon, there were subtle changes between the OT period and the 1st Cent. inappropriate contenteia in the 1st Cent had a fairly broad meaning, which would in fact have included all sex outside marriage. The OT tended to have a bit of a double standard, with chastity expected more from women than men. By the 1st Cent, expectations were the same.

I don't think arguments over definitions are actually that relevant. It's not clear to me that if you change someone's mind on that it will actually affect their behavior. De facto it doesn't appear that most Christians are actually very strongly committed to 1st Cent sexual ethics. I can give arguments for why it makes sense not to be, but I believe doing so violates CF rules.

 

[FireDragon76]

Hey, at least the white Evangelists had the decency to get married.

What is that supposed to mean? When have I ever devalued marriage? Indeed, my church affirms the value of marriage, and we encourage people to get married rather than merely cohabitate or engage in casual sex. We just don't rake people over the coals that don't live up to your ideals.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It's true, white evangelicals have higher divorce rates than either Catholics or mainline Protestants.

Barna survey: Baptists have highest divorce rate

You do realize that article is from the year 2000.

Questions:

Did you know that?

And after you read the following from 2014, would you please tell us what you learned?

Church Divorce Rate Way Lower than Anyone Thought

 

[Kenny'sID]

When have I ever devalued marriage?

Never that I know of. Please read more carefully what you are replying to, as well as my original comment to you here.

 

[FireDragon76]

You do realize that article is from the year 2000.

Questions:

Did you know that?

And after you read the following from 2014, would you please tell us what you learned?

Church Divorce Rate Way Lower than Anyone Thought

I'd rather trust Barna's numbers than a piece that is mostly about damage control, which doesn't seem to exhibit any actual statistical data anyways.

 

[FireDragon76]

Never that I know of. Please read more carefully what you are replying to, as well as my original comment to you here.

You said:

Hey, at least the white Evangelists had the decency to get married.

You assume Catholics, Jews, and irreligious people don't get married?

 

[hedrick]

And this you say in a thread while defending fornication.

Hey, at least the white Evangelists had the decency to get married.

I read an interesting historical study (which unfortunately I've lost the URL to) about this. They maintained that premarital intercourse was as frequent in early America as it is now. What changed was that it was understood that if a girl got pregnant, the boy would marry her. Without that understanding, no decent girl would have anything to do with him. That expectation has changed. They theorize that birth control gave guys an excuse to think it was the girl's responsibility, though I don't think they had specific evidence for that. (I should note that I would consider that in immoral attitude.)

One difficulty with having theory and practice disagree is that there's often political opposition to effective sex education, even though current sexual ethics depends upon it. That may be one reason for the difference involving socio-economic and educational levels. Most data suggests that sex education actually reduces extra-marital intercourse, though it surely doesn't eliminate it. It also makes it more likely that kids will avoid unwanted pregnancy (and abortion).

 

[Kenny'sID]

And here is a recent survey from Barna that shows Evangelical Christians at 26%, or third or so from the bottom of s list of 19....darned near the lowest divorce rate there.

https://www.barna.com/research/new-marriage-and-divorce-statistics-released/

So, why would you not be truthful?? People here need to know that something is right about their brand of Christianity, and that it works when it comes to marriage, but some/the World, tries to rip that knowledge away from them with bogus polls, and by only posting wrong info (whatever it takes) to try to make them look bad, all because they don't like the proof of "Good really does work", getting out there.

Shame.

 

[FireDragon76]

The study I linked to broke the numbers down by denomination. Barna's terms are simply too nonspecific for me to comment on them. What exactly is the difference between "Evangelical" and "non-Evangelical Born Again Christian". I thought the whole thing with Evangelicalism was identifying as Born Again?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I read an interesting historical study (which unfortunately I've lost the URL to) about this. They maintained that premarital intercourse was as frequent in early America as it is now. What changed was that it was understood that if a girl got pregnant, the boy would marry her. Without that understanding, no decent girl would have anything to do with him. That expectation has changed. They theorize that birth control gave guys an excuse to think it was the girl's responsibility, though I don't think they had specific evidence for that. (I should note that I would consider that in immoral attitude.)

One difficulty with having theory and practice disagree is that there's often political opposition to effective sex education, even though current sexual ethics depends upon it. That may be one reason for the difference between liberal and conservative religious groups. Most data suggests that sex education actually reduces extra-marital intercourse, though it surely doesn't eliminate it. It also makes it more likely that kids will avoid unwanted pregnancy (and abortion).

No argument there, and i would imagine the assumption from recent times past that they would just get married is somewhat biblical. I forget the scripture that basically says not to worry too much if you fornicate, just get married afterwards and you'll be fine, And I'm talking a onetime thing there.

I'm afraid those days are past, starting a fast track down hill since around the 1950's and people no longer want to take responsibility for their actions.

 

[dzheremi]

No I am in the USA. Land of the free and home of the "let's have sex on date #3 and see if it works out" brave. lol.

I feel like I need to go to confession for laughing at this as hard as I did. I mean, it's Lent and everything!

Thanks a lot, Petros2015. Hahaha.

Lord have mercy on Western societies, and the U.S. especially. Eugh.

 

[FireDragon76]

This study is more recent, and it continues to find conservative Protestants more likely to divorce. It cites as likely causative factors, religious community pressure to marry young and lesser educational attainment:

Red states, blue states, and divorce: Understanding the impact of conservative protestantism on regional variation in divorce rates

 

[Kenny'sID]

The study I linked to broke the numbers down by denomination. Barna's terms are simply too nonspecific for me to comment on them. What exactly is the difference between "Evangelical" and "non-Evangelical Born Again Christian". I thought the whole thing with Evangelicalism was identifying as Born Again?

The difference is you specified Evangelical in your original post bringing up the polls.

 

[hedrick]

And here is a recent survey from Barna that shows Evangelical Christians at 26%, or third or so from the bottom of s list of 19....darned near the lowest divorce rate there.

https://www.barna.com/research/new-marriage-and-divorce-statistics-released/

So, why would you not be truthful?? People here need to know that something is right about their brand of Christianity, and that it works when it comes to marriage, but some/the World, tries to rip that knowledge away from them with bogus polls, and by only posting wrong info (whatever it takes) to try to make them look bad, all because they don't like the proof of "Good really does work", getting out there.

Shame.

This kind of thing tends to depend a lot on how you define the question. The reference you point to is from 2008. This Barna article from 2017 says Evangelicals divorce at the same rate as the rest of the population: https://www.barna.com/research/trends-redefining-romance-today/. A study by Baylor in 2014 said Evangelicals have a higher divorce rate. Evangelicals Have Higher-than-average Divorce Rates, According to a Report Compiled by Baylor for the Council on Contemporary Families It's hard to compare surveys, particularly from web postings. There may be differences in how they define divorce rate. It's probably safest to say that there's no big difference depending upon religion.

 

[FireDragon76]

The difference is you specified Evangelical in your original post bringing up the polls.

That's true. But I'd rather compare a breakdown by denominations, not labels like "Evangelical", which are vague. According to our self-identity, we are evangelicals, yet my religion doesn't seem to resemble what most people on this forum would mean by that.

 

[Kenny'sID]

This study is more recent, and it continues to find conservative Protestants more likely to divorce.

Good grief man, you're doing it again, changing your original claim, and in this case, it had nothing to do with Protestants.

 

[FireDragon76]

Good grief man, you're doing it again, changing your original claim, and in this case, it had nothing to do with Protestants.

The evidence seems to be that being a conservative/fundamentalist Protestant doesn't bullet-proof your marriage. In fact it seems to be the case there is no real difference in divorce rates.