Is Purgatory real?

[PeaceB]

I never though i would convince you, but i hope to plant a seed. Honestly think about what i posted. Paul says we are new creations, but Catholicism says we are not yet new, not till we go through the fire of purgatory.

No. That is not what Catholicism teaches. A new creation can go through purgatory.

This is what the Catholic Church teaches:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

 

[W2L]

Scripture also says that Christ by Himself purged our sins. (Hebrews 1:3)

I wonder what Purgatory is able to accomplish that Christ's sacrifice apparently could not.

Very good point.

 

[W2L]

No. That is not what Catholicism teaches. A new creation can go through purgatory.

This is what the Catholic Church teaches:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

Your Church interprets parts of the bible wrong.

 

[PeaceB]

Your Church interprets parts of the bible wrong.

W2L has spoken. The matter is finished.

 

[PeaceB]

Scripture also says that Christ by Himself purged our sins. (Hebrews 1:3)

That is what your outdated translation of the Textus Receptus (a.k.a. the KJV) states, but it is unlikely that Scripture states that.

Didn't you write that you check multiple different translations against each other for accuracy? Apparently not in this case.

The modern scholarly consensus is that the Critical Text is the most accurate Greek base text. Here is a nice Protesant website for you that states as much.

www.gotquestions.org/amp/critical-text.html

The CT does not include the words "by himself", because the modern consensus is that those words are not found in the original Greek. This is why almost none of the modern translations include the words, but rather state as follows:

Hebrews 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (ESV, Protesant).

Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (NIV, Protesant).

Hebrews 1:3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high　(ASV, Protesant).

 

[amariselle]

That is what your outdated translation of the Textus Receptus (a.k.a. the KJV) states, but it is unlikely that Scripture states that.

Didn't you write that you check multiple different translations against each other for accuracy? Apparently not in this case.

The modern scholarly consensus is that the Critical Text is the most accurate Greek base text. Here is a nice Protesant website for you that states as much.

www.gotquestions.org/amp/critical-text.html

The CT does not include the words "by himself", because the modern consensus is that those words are not found in the original Greek. This is why almost none of the modern translations include the words, but rather state as follows:

Hebrews 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (ESV, Protesant).

Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (NIV, Protesant).

Hebrews 1:3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high　(ASV, Protesant).

You seem to be under the impression that that is the only verse in all of Scripture that tells us Christ's sacrifice is enough to take away/cleanse/purify us from sin, that "it is finished", once for all, perfectly sufficient, that we can have assurance, peace and comfort in Christ, knowing we have the promise of eternal life, that nothing remains to be done because Christ accomplished everything necessary for salvation.

The point is, there is no other sacrifice for sin, and Christ's sacrifice really is enough to take away all sin.

So, as I said awhile back, I don't believe in Purgatory. Those who truly do believe on the Son, having done the "will of the Father", (John 6:39-40) have passed from death to life, (John 5:24) are born again, (John 3:1-21) new creations in Christ, (2 Corinthians 5:17) and are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14) (2 Corinthians 1:19-22)

 

[Alithis]

I never said they are defending God's word I said they believe the are defending His word. When I said many catholics believe they are defending God's word I wasn't talking about the catholic church. I was talking about the catholic followers. You'll never inspire anyone to believe the truth about God's word by confrontation or animosity. Kindness, love and peaceful explanation is the only way to reach them. If you only resort to confrontation and animosity you will only provoke a defensive position and not show Jesus' character within you. If you try to force them towards God you will only end up pushing them farther away. Their natural reaction to confrontation and animosity is to take a defensive position and contradict anything you say. There's a difference between attacking someone and trying to help them. As Christians we should never resort to attacks. We should kindly explain how their beliefs are incorrect according to the scriptures.

You did indeed say that and I misread you.thank you for the correction.

But on the other point. No they don't enter threads like this in search of the truth but to pointedly promote the falshood.
So I don't speak gently of it .a lie is a lie.
And far worse when they know it.and refuse to repent of it.

 

[FireDragon76]

Christ does not promise to absolve us of the temporal consequences of sin.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

2. I don't believe purgatory is real.

Sinful man wishes there was such a place. Kind of a second chance. Truth is -- not supported in the Word.
M-Bob

 

[PeaceB]

You seem to be under the impression that that is the only verse in all of Scripture that tells us Christ's sacrifice is enough to take away/cleanse/purify us from sin, that "it is finished", once for all, perfectly sufficient, that we can have assurance, peace and comfort in Christ, knowing we have the promise of eternal life, that nothing remains to be done because Christ accomplished everything necessary for salvation.

The point is, there is no other sacrifice for sin, and Christ's sacrifice really is enough to take away all sin.

So, as I said awhile back, I don't believe in Purgatory. Those who truly do believe on the Son, having done the "will of the Father", (John 6:39-40) have passed from death to life, (John 5:24) are born again, (John 3:1-21) new creations in Christ, (2 Corinthians 5:17) and are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14) (2 Corinthians 1:19-22)

Yes, through our various discussions I was able to surmise that you do not believe in purgatory. But thank you for letting me know an additional time.

I am tired of debating this issue for now, as there are numerous recent threads on this topic.

 

[PeaceB]

You did indeed say that and I misread you.thank you for the correction.

But on the other point. No they don't enter threads like this in search of the truth but to pointedly promote the falshood.
So I don't speak gently of it .a lie is a lie.
And far worse when they know it.and refuse to repent of it.

What Catholic here knows that purgatory is a lie and purposefully promotes it, all the while knowing that it is a lie?

I was under the impression that only God can see into the heart of a man, but I suppose I should add you to that list, given your self-proclaimed ability to do the same.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Whether or not we choose to call it purgatory, some kind of dealing with the consequence of our sins after death seems necessary. Protestantism's insistence that it's all hunky dory after death, that immediately, through no effort of our own, our sins are dealt with to such a degree that we are perfect seems cheap. It is as it were, the wish of a sinful man.

 

[PeaceB]

Sinful man wishes there was such a place. Kind of a second chance. Truth is -- not supported in the Word.
M-Bob

No, sinful man wishes that he can commit sin without ever facing any consequence or punishment for it.

 

[W2L]

Whether or not we choose to call it purgatory, some kind of dealing with the consequence of our sins after death seems necessary. Protestantism's insistence that it's all hunky dory after death, that immediately, through no effort of our own, our sins are dealt with to such a degree that we are perfect seems cheap. It is as it were, the wish of a sinful man.

THe bible says we will be made new, and it never mentions purgatory.

 

[amariselle]

Yes, through our various discussions I was able to surmise that you do not believe in purgatory. But thank you for letting me know an additional time.

I am tired of debating this issue for now, as there are numerous recent threads on this topic.

Fair enough.

 

[amariselle]

Whether or not we choose to call it purgatory, some kind of dealing with the consequence of our sins after death seems necessary. Protestantism's insistence that it's all hunky dory after death, that immediately, through no effort of our own, our sins are dealt with to such a degree that we are perfect seems cheap. It is as it were, the wish of a sinful man.

I guess the question is, do we hope in Christ in vain, or can we actually trust that Christ's sacrifice was enough and "rest" in Him?

 

[amariselle]

Christ does not promise to absolve us of the temporal consequences of sin.

Indeed, God does "chastise" His children, however, earthly consequences for sin do not negate the one time all sufficient sacrifice of Christ on the cross. In regard to needing to have certain sins "purged" after death, the Bible tells us this is not so. Christ's sacrifice is finished, and it is enough for all who have trusted in Him.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

THe bible says we will be made new, and it never mentions purgatory.

Made new in the resurrection. What prohibits the struggle with sin? The dealing with it before that day? Or is sanctification irrelevant to salvation?

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Made new in the resurrection. What prohibits the struggle with sin? The dealing with it before that day? Or is sanctification irrelevant to salvation?

Made new in the resurrection? LIke because JESUS rose a christian can be made new you're saying?

 

[W2L]

Made new in the resurrection. What prohibits the struggle with sin? The dealing with it before that day? Or is sanctification irrelevant to salvation?

Paul says behold, all things are made new. He also said that we died and are risen with Christ in heaven. Colossians 3

How does purgatory fit into that? Please use scripture, thank you.