Is Purgatory real?

[Albion]

Didn't know that. Do Lutherans know that?

I think so. It's built into the liturgy with Anglicans, and not a single parishioner makes the mistake of thinking it's about Purgatory.

Catholics seem to think that prayers for the dead necessarily means that there is a belief in Purgatory, but the two are completely separate as they were in the early church when no one had any idea of such a place existing in the afterlife but nevertheless there were prayers for God to be merciful if it be his will.

 

[Tangible]

Didn't know that. Do Lutherans know that?

This one does.

 

[Dartman]

use common sense

Of course Holy Purgatory - Purgatory is real for many reasons as are Heaven, God our Heavenly Father with Jesus and The Holy Spirit and our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary

Every one of these topics has been distorted beyond Scriptural truth.
Heaven is God's domain, the earth is His future home, and the ONLY place the righteous have been promised. (Matt 5:5, Rev 21-22)
Jesus is the only human being that has ever, and will ever, ascend to his God's presence in heaven (John 3:13)
The "holy spirit" = "the power of the most high" (Luke 1:35)
Mary was the mother of Jesus. A young woman who found favor with God.

Purgatory is a confused mishmash of pagan theories about death, and a few Scriptures taken out of context!

 

[Seymore Bell]

I will just get to the point: Is Purgatory real? Didn't Christ already pay for our sins (taking the punishment for us) when He died in the Cross? Aren't we covered in the blood of the lamb? This life on Earth is a waiting place for us; why go to another waiting place? Aren't we made clean by accepting His death?

Chap. Bell

I am completely in agreement with you.

The unknown author said, "And as it is appointed unto men to die, but after this the judgment." Heb. 9:27


I hope this help.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You have asserted in this thread that purgatory contradicts the work of Christ on the cross, but you have done nothing to prove this. So why should anyone believe you? Because you say so?

Are you being hypocritical?

I would like to show a few verses of scripture that the idea of purgatory contradicts. First of all the teaching of purgatory suggests that Jesus' sacrifice does not remove all our sins and also teaches that we must be purified of all sin before we can enter heaven. But Paul teaches that we are cleansed of all sin and we are made holy and blameless as we stand before God without a single fault. Furthermore Paul also teaches that we can enter heaven's Most Holy Place by believing in Jesus. Here are the scriptures that I believe purgatory contradicts.

“For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:25-26‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Romans 3:25-26; For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

Notice that Paul tells us twice exactly when we are forgiven of sin. Paul said He (God) makes sinners right in His sight when they believe in Jesus. So this tells us when we are made right with God.

“Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Colossians 1:22; Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.

Here we can see that Paul is teaching us that thru Jesus' sacrifice we are made holy and blameless as we stand before God without a single fault. Notice that he said reconciled in the past tense meaning this has already occurred. Now surely Paul knew that the Corinthians were sinners when he said this and surely he wasn't teaching to dead people who had already gone thru purgatory.

“Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:11‬ ‭NLT‬‬
1 Corinthians 6:11; Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Again Paul pretty much reaffirms what he said in Colossians 1:22 we are made right with God and we are made holy by calling on the name Jesus Christ and by the Holy Spirit. And again Paul is speaking in the past tense to sinners.

“Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭NLT‬‬
1 Peter 3:18; Christ suffered#:18a Some manuscripts read died. for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.#:18b Or in spirit.

In this verse Peter teaches us that Jesus suffered for our sins once for all time. This verse is very important because Paul is telling us our sins are forgiven for all time. So any sins we commit after baptism is already paid for. This is why we only need to be baptized once.

“And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:10‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Romans 8:10; And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life#:10 Or your spirit is alive. because you have been made right with God.

Here again Paul is speaking in the past tense. This next verse really shoots down the idea of purgatory.

“Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.” And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices. And so, dear brothers and sisters, we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:17-20‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Hebrews 10:17-20; Then he says,“I will never again remembertheir sins and lawless deeds.”#:17 Jer 31:34b.And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices.A Call to PersevereAnd so, dear brothers and sisters,#:19 Greek brothers. we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. By his death,#:20 Greek Through his flesh. Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place.

Here Paul is teaching us what is necessary to enter heaven's Most Holy Place. You can see that absolutely nothing is said about purification or purgatory. Now if the apostles did in fact teach purgatory then Paul would've surely mentioned it before saying that we can enter heaven's Most Holy Place. Purgatory was not taught be the apostles that's why there is absolutely no mention of it in the bible. Now if you want I can explain how the 3 sentences in the bible that the catholic church claim as proof of purgatory are not talking about purgatory at all. That's all they have is 3 sentences and the first two are from parables that are taken out of context and the third is an assumption that contradicts what Jesus actually said. I will go into those and the history of purgatory in catholicism later. Have a blessed day

 

[Alithis]

I would like to show a few verses of scripture that the idea of purgatory contradicts. First of all the teaching of purgatory suggests that Jesus' sacrifice does not remove all our sins and also teaches that we must be purified of all sin before we can enter heaven. But Paul teaches that we are cleansed of all sin and we are made holy and blameless as we stand before God without a single fault. Furthermore Paul also teaches that we can enter heaven's Most Holy Place by believing in Jesus. Here are the scriptures that I believe purgatory contradicts.

“For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:25-26‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Romans 3:25-26; For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

Notice that Paul tells us twice exactly when we are forgiven of sin. Paul said He (God) makes sinners right in His sight when they believe in Jesus. So this tells us when we are made right with God.

“Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Colossians 1:22; Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.

Here we can see that Paul is teaching us that thru Jesus' sacrifice we are made holy and blameless as we stand before God without a single fault. Notice that he said reconciled in the past tense meaning this has already occurred. Now surely Paul knew that the Corinthians were sinners when he said this and surely he wasn't teaching to dead people who had already gone thru purgatory.

“Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:11‬ ‭NLT‬‬
1 Corinthians 6:11; Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Again Paul pretty much reaffirms what he said in Colossians 1:22 we are made right with God and we are made holy by calling on the name Jesus Christ and by the Holy Spirit. And again Paul is speaking in the past tense to sinners.

“Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭NLT‬‬
1 Peter 3:18; Christ suffered#:18a Some manuscripts read died. for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.#:18b Or in spirit.

In this verse Peter teaches us that Jesus suffered for our sins once for all time. This verse is very important because Paul is telling us our sins are forgiven for all time. So any sins we commit after baptism is already paid for. This is why we only need to be baptized once.

“And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:10‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Romans 8:10; And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life#:10 Or your spirit is alive. because you have been made right with God.

Here again Paul is speaking in the past tense. This next verse really shoots down the idea of purgatory.

“Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.” And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices. And so, dear brothers and sisters, we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:17-20‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Hebrews 10:17-20; Then he says,“I will never again remembertheir sins and lawless deeds.”#:17 Jer 31:34b.And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices.A Call to PersevereAnd so, dear brothers and sisters,#:19 Greek brothers. we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. By his death,#:20 Greek Through his flesh. Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place.

Here Paul is teaching us what is necessary to enter heaven's Most Holy Place. You can see that absolutely nothing is said about purification or purgatory. Now if the apostles did in fact teach purgatory then Paul would've surely mentioned it before saying that we can enter heaven's Most Holy Place. Purgatory was not taught be the apostles that's why there is absolutely no mention of it in the bible. Now if you want I can explain how the 3 sentences in the bible that the catholic church claim as proof of purgatory are not talking about purgatory at all. That's all they have is 3 sentences and the first two are from parables that are taken out of context and the third is an assumption that contradicts what Jesus actually said. I will go into those and the history of purgatory in catholicism later. Have a blessed day

Agree. But “they don't want to know the truth”

 

[amariselle]

Paul wrote that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8)

The Bible also tells us that Christ by Himself purged our sins. (Hebrews 1:3)

There is no need of nor proof in Scripture for "Purgatory." Such a doctrine actually denies the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice to cleanse us. It says Christ's blood was not enough and that more is needed.

 

[PeaceB]

I would like to show a few verses of scripture that the idea of purgatory contradicts. First of all the teaching of purgatory suggests that Jesus' sacrifice does not remove all our sins and also teaches that we must be purified of all sin before we can enter heaven. But Paul teaches that we are cleansed of all sin and we are made holy and blameless as we stand before God without a single fault. Furthermore Paul also teaches that we can enter heaven's Most Holy Place by believing in Jesus. Here are the scriptures that I believe purgatory contradicts.

“For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:25-26‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Romans 3:25-26; For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

Notice that Paul tells us twice exactly when we are forgiven of sin. Paul said He (God) makes sinners right in His sight when they believe in Jesus. So this tells us when we are made right with God.

“Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Colossians 1:22; Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.

Here we can see that Paul is teaching us that thru Jesus' sacrifice we are made holy and blameless as we stand before God without a single fault. Notice that he said reconciled in the past tense meaning this has already occurred. Now surely Paul knew that the Corinthians were sinners when he said this and surely he wasn't teaching to dead people who had already gone thru purgatory.

“Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:11‬ ‭NLT‬‬
1 Corinthians 6:11; Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Again Paul pretty much reaffirms what he said in Colossians 1:22 we are made right with God and we are made holy by calling on the name Jesus Christ and by the Holy Spirit. And again Paul is speaking in the past tense to sinners.

“Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭NLT‬‬
1 Peter 3:18; Christ suffered#:18a Some manuscripts read died. for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.#:18b Or in spirit.

In this verse Peter teaches us that Jesus suffered for our sins once for all time. This verse is very important because Paul is telling us our sins are forgiven for all time. So any sins we commit after baptism is already paid for. This is why we only need to be baptized once.

“And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:10‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Romans 8:10; And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life#:10 Or your spirit is alive. because you have been made right with God.

Here again Paul is speaking in the past tense. This next verse really shoots down the idea of purgatory.

“Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.” And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices. And so, dear brothers and sisters, we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:17-20‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Hebrews 10:17-20; Then he says,“I will never again remembertheir sins and lawless deeds.”#:17 Jer 31:34b.And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices.A Call to PersevereAnd so, dear brothers and sisters,#:19 Greek brothers. we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. By his death,#:20 Greek Through his flesh. Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place.

Here Paul is teaching us what is necessary to enter heaven's Most Holy Place. You can see that absolutely nothing is said about purification or purgatory. Now if the apostles did in fact teach purgatory then Paul would've surely mentioned it before saying that we can enter heaven's Most Holy Place. Purgatory was not taught be the apostles that's why there is absolutely no mention of it in the bible. Now if you want I can explain how the 3 sentences in the bible that the catholic church claim as proof of purgatory are not talking about purgatory at all. That's all they have is 3 sentences and the first two are from parables that are taken out of context and the third is an assumption that contradicts what Jesus actually said. I will go into those and the history of purgatory in catholicism later. Have a blessed day

Thank you for the information.

 

[PeaceB]

Paul wrote that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8)

Here it is:

5 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
​

When you appear before the judgment seat of Christ and receive what is due for the evil that you have done in the body, what exactly is it that you expect to receive? A reward for the evil that you have done, or a punishment for the evil that you have done?

 

[amariselle]

Here it is:

5 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
​

When you appear before the judgment seat of Christ and receive what is due for the evil that you have done in the body, what exactly is it that you expect to receive? A reward for the evil that you have done, or a punishment for the evil that you have done?

I guess you'll need to look up more on heavenly rewards, how our works are "tried by fire", etc.

 

[PeaceB]

I guess you'll need to look up more on heavenly rewards, how our works are "tried by fire", etc.

I guess you will have to do the same.

 

[amariselle]

I guess you will have to do the same.

I have, multiple times.

 

[PeaceB]

I have, multiple times.

I have also, multiple times.

 

[amariselle]

I have also, multiple times.

Good.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And just like Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are "true" to heretics.

Sola fide is biblical if you understand what sola fide really means. It doesn't mean that we don't have to do good works it means we are not saved by our works we are saved by our faith. Our works are evidence of our faith. That's why James said we are shown to be right with God by our works but we are counted as being right with God by faith. When James says we are shown to be right with God that means you can see we are right with God. When he says we are counted as being right with God that means that God has deemed us as being righteous. Now there is a good reason for sola scriptura. First of all why were the scriptures written? They were written to ensure that all the Christian churches taught the same message and to ensure that the message wasn't corrupted or twisted throughout time. Martin Luther began using sola scriptura because of the corruption that was taking place in the catholic church. Their oral traditions were contradicting the scriptures. Like purgatory for example. The earliest Christian writings of purgatory began between 1160AD-1180AD. Pope Gregory VII began his reign of terror in 1173 when he sanctioned the beginning of the inquisitions that spanned for another 724 years and was also sanctioned by the next 99 popes during that time. These inquisitions called upon church bishops and priests as inquisitors and sentenced nonbelievers and basically anyone who opposed the catholic teachings to horrible torture and executions. Like I said this lasted for 724 years and during that time indulgences started being sold by corrupted church bishops and priests. So there was much evil in the catholic church at that time. Now I will say that I don't see that type of behavior in the catholic church today. But my point is the oral traditions that the catholic church teaches today were handed down thru those evil men for over 700 years and were twisted and corrupted by those men. Purgatory, indulgences, and Mary as mediatrix all came from that period. The reason is because they taught that Jesus forgave our sins but not temporal sin. Which is a contradiction because if you say His sacrifice doesn't remove temporal sin the all our sins aren't removed. So in order to be purified of temporal sin you had to give alms or tithes to the church. They called it charity I call it selling salvation for money. So when you gave tithes to the catholic church the priest would pray for you to remove those temporal sins. Temporal sins also had to be paid for after death. So if a family member died you could pay the catholic church so the priest would pray to Mary and she would intercede to God on their behalf and have them removed from purgatory. Mary apparently has this gift because she asked Jesus to make wine out of water at the wedding at Cana and He agreed. Hence the birth of Mary's intercession which the only time Mary is ever mentioned to intercede for anyone in the bible was at the wedding at Cana. I will add that intercession is mediating. They're the exact same thing. They both mean to intervene. Which the bible says we have ONE mediator that is Jesus Christ.

“For, There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Another thing to consider is in that time the bible was only available in Latin which nobody read Latin. So the people couldn't read the bible and learn the truth about God's word for themselves. Many people who translated the bible into languages the common people could read and the people who distributed those bible's were burned at the stake by the catholic church.

So with all this corruption and evil going on in the catholic church Martin Luther and many others agreed that the oral traditions cannot contradict the scriptures. Hence the birth of sola scriptura. This is the very reason why the scriptures were written is to ensure that the teachings of the apostles wasn't corrupted and twisted. Jesus warned us to beware of false prophets.

““Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:15-20‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Matthew 7:15-20; “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.

Now I would like to say again that I don't see this type of behavior in the catholic church today but the oral traditions have been corrupted and twisted and the catholic church has not disregarded them. They will not admit those teachings are false because of the church's infallibility and the pope's aleged infallibly. If they were to admit they were wrong they would lose all credibility as being an infallible source of God's word. So that is why we believe in sola scriptura. So we can be assured that our teachings are 100% correct and in line with the apostles teachings. I hope that helps you to understand and have a blessed day

 

[PeaceB]

Sola fide is biblical if you understand what sola fide really means. It doesn't mean that we don't have to do good works it means we are not saved by our works we are saved by our faith. Our works are evidence of our faith. That's why James said we are shown to be right with God by our works but we are counted as being right with God by faith. When James says we are shown to be right with God that means you can see we are right with God. When he says we are counted as being right with God that means that God has deemed us as being righteous. Now there is a good reason for sola scriptura. First of all why were the scriptures written? They were written to ensure that all the Christian churches taught the same message and to ensure that the message wasn't corrupted or twisted throughout time. Martin Luther began using sola scriptura because of the corruption that was taking place in the catholic church. Their oral traditions were contradicting the scriptures. Like purgatory for example. The earliest Christian writings of purgatory began between 1160AD-1180AD. Pope Gregory VII began his reign of terror in 1173 when he sanctioned the beginning of the inquisitions that spanned for another 724 years and was also sanctioned by the next 99 popes during that time. These inquisitions called upon church bishops and priests as inquisitors and sentenced nonbelievers and basically anyone who opposed the catholic teachings to horrible torture and executions. Like I said this lasted for 724 years and during that time indulgences started being sold by corrupted church bishops and priests. So there was much evil in the catholic church at that time. Now I will say that I don't see that type of behavior in the catholic church today. But my point is the oral traditions that the catholic church teaches today were handed down thru those evil men for over 700 years and were twisted and corrupted by those men. Purgatory, indulgences, and Mary as mediatrix all came from that period. The reason is because they taught that Jesus forgave our sins but not temporal sin. Which is a contradiction because if you say His sacrifice doesn't remove temporal sin the all our sins aren't removed. So in order to be purified of temporal sin you had to give alms or tithes to the church. They called it charity I call it selling salvation for money. So when you gave tithes to the catholic church the priest would pray for you to remove those temporal sins. Temporal sins also had to be paid for after death. So if a family member died you could pay the catholic church so the priest would pray to Mary and she would intercede to God on their behalf and have them removed from purgatory. Mary apparently has this gift because she asked Jesus to make wine out of water at the wedding at Cana and He agreed. Hence the birth of Mary's intercession which the only time Mary is ever mentioned to intercede for anyone in the bible was at the wedding at Cana. I will add that intercession is mediating. They're the exact same thing. They both mean to intervene. Which the bible says we have ONE mediator that is Jesus Christ.

“For, There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Another thing to consider is in that time the bible was only available in Latin which nobody read Latin. So the people couldn't read the bible and learn the truth about God's word for themselves. Many people who translated the bible into languages the common people could read and the people who distributed those bible's were burned at the stake by the catholic church.

So with all this corruption and evil going on in the catholic church Martin Luther and many others agreed that the oral traditions cannot contradict the scriptures. Hence the birth of sola scriptura. This is the very reason why the scriptures were written is to ensure that the teachings of the apostles wasn't corrupted and twisted. Jesus warned us to beware of false prophets.

““Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:15-20‬ ‭NLT‬‬
Matthew 7:15-20; “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.

Now I would like to say again that I don't see this type of behavior in the catholic church today but the oral traditions have been corrupted and twisted and the catholic church has not disregarded them. They will not admit those teachings are false because of the church's infallibility and the pope's aleged infallibly. If they were to admit they were wrong they would lose all credibility as being an infallible source of God's word. So that is why we believe in sola scriptura. So we can be assured that our teachings are 100% correct and in line with the apostles teachings. I hope that helps you to understand and have a blessed day

Thank you for the information.

1) I am not interested in engaging in a discussion of Scripture based on the NLT. It is not a translation that I respect. For example, the NLT says "Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road." But that is not what the text states. The KJV says "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" The ESV says "And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?" Most other good translations are similar. The text says that Rahab was justified by works. It does not say that she was "shown to be right with God by her actions."

The NLT appears to be more of a paraphrase than a translation of the text, with all due respect. I do not respect the NLT.

2) Scripture teaches neither Sola Scriptura nor Sola Fide, unless they are defined in a way that is consistent with what the Catholic Church teaches.

3) And St. James was not concerned with the question of appearing justified before men, or of showing men our good works so that they can see that we are justified, or about there being sufficient evidence of our faith for others to see.

Here is the question that St. James sets out to answer: "14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?". The answer that he gives is "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

4) Protestants have been trying to explain away James for 500 years with no avail. Martin Luther even went so far as to attempt to remove James from the Bible altogether, because it causes so much trouble for his new and unbiblical doctrine of Sola Fide.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I would like to show a few verses of scripture that the idea of purgatory contradicts.

You have set up a straw man to knock him down.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thank you for the information.

1) I am not interested in engaging in a discussion of Scripture based on the NLT. It is not a translation that I respect. For example, the NLT says "Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road." But that is not what the text states. The KJV says "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" The ESV says "And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?" Most other good translations are similar. The text says that Rahab was justified by works. It does not say that she was "shown to be right with God by her actions."

The NLT appears to be more of a paraphrase than a translation of the text, with all due respect. I do not respect the NLT.

2) Scripture teaches neither Sola Scriptura nor Sola Fide, unless they are defined in a way that is consistent with what the Catholic Church teaches.

3) And St. James was not concerned with the question of appearing justified before men, or of showing men our good works so that they can see that we are justified, or about there being sufficient evidence of our faith for others to see.

Here is the question that St. James sets out to answer: "14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?". The answer that he gives is "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

4) Protestants have been trying to explain away James for 500 years with no avail. Martin Luther even went so far as to attempt to remove James from the Bible altogether, because it causes so much trouble for his new and unbiblical doctrine of Sola Fide.

I'm sorry you are correct about the NLT version. Usually I check other versions like the ASV to ensure a correct translation. Most of the time the NLT gives an accurate translation but in this case it didn't. Many times the bible says we are saved by faith and not by works. Yes works are necessary because if we don't do good works that is evidence that our faith is not genuine. Look at verse 22

“Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:22‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Both Abraham and Rehab were justified because their works made their faith perfect and several times in the bible it says we are not saved by works we are saved by our faith thru God's grace. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God. Grace is a gift not something we can earn. Im sure you would agree that the scriptures do not contradict themselves.

“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Romans 11:6; And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It is our faith that is made perfect by works not ourselves. We are not made perfect by our works. It is our faith that saves us not our works. Works are evidence that our faith is genuine and sincere.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thank you for the information.

1) I am not interested in engaging in a discussion of Scripture based on the NLT. It is not a translation that I respect. For example, the NLT says "Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road." But that is not what the text states. The KJV says "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" The ESV says "And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?" Most other good translations are similar. The text says that Rahab was justified by works. It does not say that she was "shown to be right with God by her actions."

The NLT appears to be more of a paraphrase than a translation of the text, with all due respect. I do not respect the NLT.

2) Scripture teaches neither Sola Scriptura nor Sola Fide, unless they are defined in a way that is consistent with what the Catholic Church teaches.

3) And St. James was not concerned with the question of appearing justified before men, or of showing men our good works so that they can see that we are justified, or about there being sufficient evidence of our faith for others to see.

Here is the question that St. James sets out to answer: "14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?". The answer that he gives is "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

4) Protestants have been trying to explain away James for 500 years with no avail. Martin Luther even went so far as to attempt to remove James from the Bible altogether, because it causes so much trouble for his new and unbiblical doctrine of Sola Fide.

I explained how the oral traditions of the catholic church had been corrupted and were no longer in line with the scriptures. Indulgences and purgatory and Mary as mediatrix.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Agree. But “they don't want to know the truth”

I disagree they just believe they are defending God's word. Remember that they are our brothers and sisters and it is our God given duty to help them to understand. Most catholics truly honor God they are just misled.