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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Made new in the resurrection? LIke because JESUS rose a christian can be made new you're saying?
Yes, the resurrection is where all those reconciled to God will find ultimate rest. I would simply ask what is the basis for saying we cannot, even after death, deal with our sinful selves?
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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Yes, the resurrection is where all those reconciled to God will find ultimate rest. I would simply ask what is the basis for saying we cannot, even after death, deal with our sinful selves?


Well the bible says everyone who makes it in heaven has a new body in heaven and sin and pain will not be present there ...i'm not sure who's disputing that.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Paul says behold, all things are made new. He also said that we died and are risen with Christ in heaven. Colossians 3

How does purgatory fit into that? Please use scripture, thank you.

Paul actually seems to be speaking about this life and our need to put down sin in our lives in order to conform ourselves to the risen bodily Christ. Where do you get the idea that he is talking about heaven here? If anything this just demonstrates the need to grapple and wrestle with sin because we have risen in Christ on this earth (in our baptism) and there is certainty no guarantee we will have completed the task by the end of our lives. Hence we need to wait ultimately for the resurrection wherein everything will be perfected.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Well the bible says everyone who makes it in heaven has a new body in heaven and sin and pain will not be present there ...i'm not sure who's disputing that.

We will be given a new body in heaven? Where does the bible say we will receive new bodies before the resurrection?
 
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amariselle

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Yes, the resurrection is where all those reconciled to God will find ultimate rest. I would simply ask what is the basis for saying we cannot, even after death, deal with our sinful selves?

How can we "deal with our sinful selves"?

Is Christ's sacrifice not enough to save us? Must we still somehow, ultimately save ourselves?
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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We will be given a new body in heaven? Where does the bible say we will receive new bodies before the resurrection?

Ooooh I see you believe people go to heaven even before the resurrection or return of the Lord.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Yes because the scriptures are the undeniable truth.
Scripture is undeniable truth. It's just that you used Scripture to shoot down and kill a straw man. You missed your target because you don't even know what your target is. Proclaiming that Scripture is an undeniable truth doesn't mean you magically hit your target. Figure out from actual official Catholic teaching what purgatory is and is not and try again. Or not. It's up to you.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Your still dodging the question because you can't explain how purgatory doesn't contradict the verses I quoted. If I'm wrong and you know I am then please explain where I went wrong in my explanation.
Figure out what purgatory is and what it is not based on official Catholic teaching and then start looking for the Scripture to shoot it down. Otherwise your aim is off. Just sayin'.

Thomas Aquinas labored carefully to understand his intellectual opponents and to fairly state their positions accurately and even in the best possible light first before effectively demolishing those opponent's positions. He aimed first, then he shot.
 
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W2L

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Figure out what purgatory is and what it is not based on official Catholic teaching and then start looking for the Scripture to shoot it down. Otherwise your aim is off. Just sayin'.
Purgatory is where Catholics go when they leave this world. Protestants dont go there.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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How can we "deal with our sinful selves"?

Is Christ's sacrifice not enough to save us? Must we still somehow, ultimately save ourselves?

I'm not denying Christ's sacrifice. I'm also not denying our capacity to be sinful and bogged down by the world and evil. It's not about saving oneself, it's about working out the salvation promised to us, getting to root of our peculiar habits pr state of being which is sinful/sin.

Purgatory isn't about being saved, as far as I understand it. Those in purgatory know they will be saved and have been saved. It's about rooting out those desires for sin which have not been rooted out.
 
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amariselle

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I'm not denying Christ's sacrifice. I'm also not denying our capacity to be sinful and bogged down by the world and evil. It's not about saving oneself, it's about working out the salvation promised to us, getting to root of our peculiar habits pr state of being which is sinful/sin.

Purgatory isn't about being saved, as far as I understand it. Those in purgatory know they will be saved and have been saved. It's about rooting out those desires for sin which have not been rooted out.

I guess if Purgatory plays even a small part in eventual salvation, then it is in fact necessary for salvation.

I find that to be absolutely contrary to Scripture, which, first of all speaks of no such place or "state", and also emphasizes that Christ's one time and finished sacrifice is sufficient to purge our sins, nothing else needed.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Read the scripture. We are hidden with Christ in God. Where is God? In heaven, yes?
So if we receive new bodies upon death in heaven, what do you do with the passages of the bible that speak to the resurrection as having not happened yet? I'm thinking about 1 Cor 15
I guess if Purgatory plays even a small part in eventual salvation, then it is in fact necessary for salvation.

I find that to be absolutely contrary to Scripture, which, first of all speaks of no such place or "state", and also emphasizes that Christ's one time and finished sacrifice is sufficient to purge our sins, nothing else needed.

Do we need to work out our sins while we live on earth? Why do we have to deal with our sinfulness since Christ's sacrifice is enough? It's finished right? Why do I need to try to be holy? Shouldn't it just come regardless of my effort? This absolute insistence does away with our responsibility and leaves us solely in the domain of Calvinism, in which we have no choice and must merely rely on God's arbitrary judgement.

I think this speaks to the difference of views between us. I do not formally accept purgatory as a doctrine but I see it as an idea suitable for explaining what is to be done with those who have not worked out their sins while alive. Who are still burdened. The way you speak about it seems to me to diminish the struggle, to make our lives as we live them irrelevant to salvation. I don't believe that is the case given the numerous calls within the bible to live a holy life, to put aside sin.
 
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amariselle

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Do we need to work out our sins while we live on earth?

Depends what you mean by "work out" our sins. If you mean stop sinning completely, then I would have to ask who (other than Jesus) has ever done so?

Why do we have to deal with our sinfulness since Christ's sacrifice is enough?

Again, I guess it depends what you mean by "deal with" our sinfulness.

It's finished right?

The sacrifice for sin is, yes.

Why do I need to try to be holy?

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. - Romans 12:1-2


Shouldn't it just come regardless of my effort?

No, because the "flesh" wars against the Spirit. (Galatians 5:17) (Romans 7:8-25)

This absolute insistence does away with our responsibility and leaves us solely in the domain of Calvinism, in which we have no choice and must merely rely on God's arbitrary judgement.

I disagree. Knowing that we have "liberty in Christ", (Galatians 5:1) and that our sins have been purged by Him and through His sacrifice does not give us license to sin or abuse God's grace and mercy.

However, the "strength of sin" is the Law, not Grace.

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ
. - 1 Corinthians 15:56-57

I think this speaks to the difference of views between us. I do not formally accept purgatory as a doctrine but I see it as an idea suitable for explaining what is to be done with those who have not worked out their sins while alive. Who are still burdened.

Did Jesus not say that He will give rest to all those who come to Him?

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light
. - Matthew 11:28-30

So, why should anyone who has come to Christ, believing in Him (the will of the Father) still be burdened by sin?

Christ is our "Sabbath" and we enter into "rest" through belief. (Hebrews 4)

Jesus does not want us to be burdened, but to rest in Him, by faith. Sin is taken care of, completely by His sacrifice. We can trust Him, He has not failed.

The way you speak about it seems to me to diminish the struggle, to make our lives as we live them irrelevant to salvation. I don't believe that is the case given the numerous calls within the bible to live a holy life, to put aside sin.

I fail to see how trusting in Christ fully for our salvation, believing He truly did purge our sins, diminishes "the struggle" with sin we face in life. I don't believe that's true. Again, the flesh wars against the Spirit. Paul definitely understood this. Jesus also promised that we will have many trials and tribulations in this life, but to take heart, because He's overcome the world. (John 16:33)

I don't think that we should ever doubt our salvation or the completeness or sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice, especially when things are hardest.

It is Satan who would want us to doubt our salvation, not God.
 
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BNR32FAN

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St. Paul did not state that "we are holy without blemish and unreprovable before Him in the present tense." The ASV states "And you, being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven".

Notice the word "if" in the text. The word "if" indicates that the phrase that precedes it is a conditional phrase. That is, "to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him" is a conditional phrase. The condition on which our Lord will present you holy and blameless is if "ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven".

The text says nothing about people being holy and blameless before God at a present point in time. If tomorrow you renounce God, become an atheist, and gleefully go out raping and killing people until your death, do you think that Jesus will "present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him"? No. Of course not. Our Lord will "present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him" at some future point in time after "ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven".

That future point in time may be immediately upon your death, or after purgatory, should you end up in purgatory.

Again, there is nothing in Scripture that you are going to be able to produce here that refutes or is inconsistent with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Protestants have been attempting to do so for 500 years, and to no avail. What makes you think that post number #276 on Christian Forums will be the watershed moment that finally disproves the Catholic faith? Do you really think that you are going to be able to produce a verse from Scripture that disproves purgatory, when we have have thousands of intelligent priests, theologians, lay apologists among our ranks, who have already considered every verse of Scripture and argument that you will make a thousand times? Even if you come up with some novel argument that I have difficulty answering here, all I need to do is simply refer back to one of those thousands of people in the history of the Church, who has already considered your argument and has a powerful refutation of it.

You will debate on endlessly here, and you will never prove that Scripture contradicts the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. There are literally hundreds of pages from threads on this site where people have attempted to do so, and failed.

Colossians 1:22 does not state that "all sin is removed". Colossians 1:22 (ASV) is cited above. As for your question, that information has been provided numerous times on this forum. I suggest that you use the search feature, which is quite useful. You can also find the information at Catholic Answers, or at numerous other places on the internet, using Google.

You are incorrect brother. Paul is saying that NOW we are RECONCILED past tense it has already happened. Then he goes on to say that we are are holy and without blemish in the present tense if we stay in our faith in Jesus and adhere to the gospels. I never said we are still saved if we renounce our faith.

“yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22-23‬ ‭ASV‬‬
 
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Ron Gurley

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OP: Q: "Is "Purgatory" "real"?"

A: NO. "it" is not supported by "Scriptura Suprema".
"It" is a false doctrine based on RCC "tradition" and/or "magisterium".

"it" flies in face of true Biblical doctrine.

What I choose to be BELIEVE for true Christ folowers ONLY:

" To be absent from the BODY/SOUL (death on earth) is to be present (spiritually) with the TRI-UNE GOD (eternal life in heavenly realms)"....a paraphrase of Paul, emphasizing differences in BODY / SPIRIT.

2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV)...BELIEVERS: Our Heavenly Dwelling
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer
to be away from the BODY and at home (HEAVEN) with the Lord.(SPIRITUAL PRESENCE)

1 Peter 3: 18-19 (NIV with my comments)
(Jesus the Christ's BODY) being put to death in the flesh, but made (spiritually) alive by (God) the (Holy) Spirit,
19 by whom also He (resurrected Jesus) went and preached to (~released) the spirits (souls) in prison,...

("Paradise" + "Hades" = "Abraham's Bosom"...fulfilled by Jesus!)
SEE:Luke 16: 19-31
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yes, the resurrection is where all those reconciled to God will find ultimate rest. I would simply ask what is the basis for saying we cannot, even after death, deal with our sinful selves?
 
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BNR32FAN

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“For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:23‬ ‭ASV‬‬

We can't pay for our sins because the wages of sin is death and God requires a perfect sacrifice to pay for sins. So you could spend all eternity in purgatory and never pay off a single sin.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yes, the resurrection is where all those reconciled to God will find ultimate rest. I would simply ask what is the basis for saying we cannot, even after death, deal with our sinful selves?

When we die and we stand before God and He asks us why should I let you into heaven what will you say? Will you say because I paid for my sins in purgatory or will you say because Jesus gave His life to pay for my sins?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Scripture is undeniable truth. It's just that you used Scripture to shoot down and kill a straw man. You missed your target because you don't even know what your target is. Proclaiming that Scripture is an undeniable truth doesn't mean you magically hit your target. Figure out from actual official Catholic teaching what purgatory is and is not and try again. Or not. It's up to you.

You did all that typing and didn't say a thing. You haven't showed anything to prove your point of view. You might as well had just said "nuh uh". Like I said before you keep dodging the question where did I make my mistake? Enlighten me please.
 
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