Is Purgatory real?

[chevyontheriver]

Thank you you make some very good points but the way I see it according to the bible tells me that Jesus fixed the window. He paid the price and suffered in our place. Once He did that God forgets about our sins.

You are still not getting the distinction between the guilt for sin and the consequence of sin. It is quite an ordinary distinction. Jesus saves, forgives, redeems, but also sanctifies. Your sins are forgotten. But you still need sanctification. The sanctification requires us to be transformed by the renewal of our minds, something that we have to have an active part in. We either participate in this sanctification in the here and now or after we die. Ideally we are gung-ho about it now. But not all of us die fully sanctified. So we finish that sanctification off in purgatory. God does the heavy lifting both now and in purgatory, but we have to accept and agree to and appropriate that sancification. It isn't always easy now, making sacrifices, disciplining our minds, saying no to temptations. It isn't easy in purgatory either. It's a purge. But it leaves us fully sanctified, ready to stand before the Holy God. This is the reason the Israelites prayed for their dead and why all Christians prayed for their dead up until some Protestants gave up on it a few hundred years ago. We pray for the dead to assist them on their way, to ease their sanctification, for those saved but not quite sanctified when they died. And that's what indulgences are about as well.

According to the catechism purgatory is about forgiveness of sin. Here is a quote from the catechism regarding purgatory.

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]

So according to the catechism all of our sins are not forgiven by Jesus' sacrifice. That is not biblical. Also Jesus never said sins will be forgiven in the age to come. He actually said the exact opposite. Saying sins are forgiven in the age to come is an assumption that is not backed by scripture. In my opinion.

You are being somewhat obtuse here. All sins are only forgiven by the sacrifice of Jesus. Big sins, those the Bible calls 'mortal sins', if you have not been forgiven those before you die, they are not forgiven and you go to hell. The much lesser sins, still real offenses to God in His absolute holiness, those can be forgiven later, but only by the sacrifice of Jesus applied at or soon after death. And only for those who are already saved. Their sins, if they are not mortal, do not keep them from eventually being with God. The thing you don't seem to be able to get is that the remission of sins, for Catholics, only always comes from Jesus. You think purgatory is some sort of end-run. But it's not. It is the application of and finishing of sanctification for those already saved. And in smaller degree the cleansing of lesser sins. Mt 12 is correct and St. Gregory the Great has a sound interpretation of the words of Jesus.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Wrong scenario. You have it about 180 degrees off from what the scenario was posed to explain.

Try this one on for size. You and some friends are playing ball. You hit the ball and it breaks your neighbor's window. You admit you did it, say you're sorry, and you are forgiven. The window is still broken. You can fix the window yourself or perhaps someone else comes along and offers to fix the window for you. In either case fixing the window has become independent of your forgiven guilt for breaking the window. This is the classic distinction between guilt and consequence in Christian theology. It would be understood by Oriental Orthodox, by Eastern Orthodox, and by Catholics. Also by many legal systems. It's what 'restorative justice' is all about, making right the damage done by a bad act. It is the step beyond catching and convicting and sentencing someone for punishment, which of course is not always very restorative. Purgatory is restorative, at least in terms of setting your soul to have right virtues and dispositions to be able to see God face to face for all eternity.

The catechism says purgatory is for forgiveness of sin and temporal punishment. The bible says Jesus is the atonement for sin. A person is not forgiven if they must still be punished. The first scenario you described about stealing the money from the bank is a better description of purgatory because after the money was returned there is still punishment that is necessary. The scenario about accidentally breaking a window doesn't fit the description of purgatory because after the window is fixed there are no further consequences. There is no punishment that should be required. It's just like a accident in a car. If you get into a wreck in a car once the person's car is fixed there are no further consequences for the accident. If someone breaks my window then fixes it they owe me nothing and I am completely satisfied and don't hold any kind of grudge against that person. I wouldn't require that person be punished for the accident if the window was fixed. The same would also apply in a court of law. That would be a civil case not a criminal case. A person doesn't go to jail for breaking a window if they fix the it. Purgatory is describing a criminal case where punishment for the offense would also be necessary. The definition of forgiveness is to stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake or to cancel a debt. So if punishment or payment is still necessary after your sins are forgiven then that is not forgiveness.

Catholics keep claiming that 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is evidence of purgatory. First of all you have to realize it is a parable. Parables are used to support what is currently being discussed. You don't start discussing a topic and then use a parable that is discussing a completely different topic. So let's examine the context of what Paul was discussing when he used that parable.

“Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow. The one who plants and the one who waters work together with the same purpose. And both will be rewarded for their own hard work. For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building. Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-10

Paul is writing to the Corinthians to explain that both himself and Apollos were working towards the same goal and they each did the work that The Lord assigned to them. Nowhere is Paul talking about forgiveness of sin or temporal punishment for sin or purification. Paul is talking about how our works will earn us rewards in heaven and regardless of whether our works survive the test of fire we will still be saved. It is our works that are tested by fire not our soul or spirit. Now let's examine 11-15.

“For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ. Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:11-15‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Everything Paul says is referring to works. Our works will be tested by fire and if they survive the test of fire we will receive a reward. The reward is not salvation. Our salvation is a free gift from the grace of God. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God. It cannot be earned. When Paul says we will be saved but like someone barely escaping a wall of flames is a metaphor. Nowhere has Paul mentioned forgiveness of sin or temporal punishment in this entire chapter. In every case of a biblical reference to purgatory it is either a parable taken out of context of what is being discussed or an assumption with nothing to support it. Nowhere in the bible is purgatory, forgiveness of sin after death, temporal punishment after death, or purification after death directly discussed. Not even the concept of the idea is ever directly discussed. Another example is Matthew 12:32.

“Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NLT‬‬

The catholic church makes the assumption that because Jesus said we will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come if we sin against the Holy Spirit that this indicates there is forgiveness of sin in the world to come. But that is not what Jesus said. In fact Jesus said the exact opposite. He said we won't be forgiven in the world to come. The catholic church is making an assumption that is not supported by any other scriptures in the bible. Next is Matthew 5:25-26

““When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison. And if that happens, you surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:25-26‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Here Jesus is teaching us that we need to reconcile our differences with others. If we don't forgive we will not be forgiven. Many people mistake this verse as being a parable but Jesus is speaking literally. At that time you could literally be thrown into prison for not paying a debt.

““You have heard that our ancestors were told, ‘You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.’ But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell. “So if you are presenting a sacrifice at the altar in the Temple and you suddenly remember that someone has something against you, leave your sacrifice there at the altar. Go and be reconciled to that person. Then come and offer your sacrifice to God. “When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison. And if that happens, you surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:21-26‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Notice that Jesus says "If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell". That is the prison Jesus is talking about. In hell the payment is eternal. The actual word Jesus used is Gehenna which is referring to hell. Jesus used the word Gehenna 11 times in the New Testament and in every case He was referring to hell. Here are some examples.

• Matthew 5:22: "....whoever shall say, "You fool," shall be guilty enough to go into Gehenna."
• Matthew 5:29: "....it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna."
• Matthew 5:30: "....better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into Gehenna."
• Matthew 10:28: "....rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
• Matthew 18:9: "It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than with two eyes to be thrown into the Gehenna."
• Matthew 23:15: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you... make one proselyte...twice as much a child of Gehenna as yourselves."
• Matthew 23:33, to the Pharisees: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you to escape the sentence of Gehenna?"
• Mark 9:43: "It is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into Gehenna into the unquenchable fire."
• Mark 9:45: "It is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into Gehenna."
• Mark 9:47: "It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna."
• Luke 12:5: "....fear the One who, after He has killed has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear Him."
• James 3:6: "And the tongue is a fire,...and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by Gehenna."

So his reference is the literal meaning of being in danger of being thrown into prison where you will not be released until you've paid the last penny. But in hell payment is eternal. You will never be released. So Jesus is not speaking of purgatory which is temporary punishment He is speaking of hell which is eternal punishment.

In every single case when you examine the scriptures that the catholic church uses to support purgatory you can see that purgatory is not being discussed. That is why in every case it is not a clear and direct teaching of purgatory and to come to the conclusion that they are referring to purgatory requires assumptions or trying to find some sort of hidden meaning within the scriptures. So be bold and stand confident in your faith that Jesus Christ has paid the price for your sins IN FULL!! He didn't suffer and sacrifice Himself on the cross to pay for some of your sins HE PAID FOR ALL OF THEM!! PRAISE THE LORD!! We are all unworthy of God's grace but because of our faith in Jesus Christ God has promised to forgive us of our all sins and remember them no more. PRAISE OUR HEAVENLY FATHER FOR HIS GRACE EVEN THO WE DON'T DESERVE IT!! AMEN!!

 

[chevyontheriver]

The catechism says purgatory is for forgiveness of sin and temporal punishment. The bible says Jesus is the atonement for sin. A person is not forgiven if they must still be punished. The first scenario you described about stealing the money from the bank is a better description of purgatory because after the money was returned there is still punishment that is necessary. The scenario about accidentally breaking a window doesn't fit the description of purgatory because after the window is fixed there are no further consequences. There is no punishment that should be required. It's just like a accident in a car. If you get into a wreck in a car once the person's car is fixed there are no further consequences for the accident. If someone breaks my window then fixes it they owe me nothing and I am completely satisfied and don't hold any kind of grudge against that person. I wouldn't require that person be punished for the accident if the window was fixed. The same would also apply in a court of law. That would be a civil case not a criminal case. A person doesn't go to jail for breaking a window if they fix the it. Purgatory is describing a criminal case where punishment for the offense would also be necessary. The definition of forgiveness is to stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake or to cancel a debt. So if punishment or payment is still necessary after your sins are forgiven then that is not forgiveness.

Catholics keep claiming that 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is evidence of purgatory. First of all you have to realize it is a parable. Parables are used to support what is currently being discussed. You don't start discussing a topic and then use a parable that is discussing a completely different topic. So let's examine the context of what Paul was discussing when he used that parable.

“Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow. The one who plants and the one who waters work together with the same purpose. And both will be rewarded for their own hard work. For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building. Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-10

Paul is writing to the Corinthians to explain that both himself and Apollos were working towards the same goal and they each did the work that The Lord assigned to them. Nowhere is Paul talking about forgiveness of sin or temporal punishment for sin or purification. Paul is talking about how our works will earn us rewards in heaven and regardless of whether our works survive the test of fire we will still be saved. It is our works that are tested by fire not our soul or spirit. Now let's examine 11-15.

“For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ. Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:11-15‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Everything Paul says is referring to works. Our works will be tested by fire and if they survive the test of fire we will receive a reward. The reward is not salvation. Our salvation is a free gift from the grace of God. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God. It cannot be earned. When Paul says we will be saved but like someone barely escaping a wall of flames is a metaphor. Nowhere has Paul mentioned forgiveness of sin or temporal punishment in this entire chapter. In every case of a biblical reference to purgatory it is either a parable taken out of context of what is being discussed or an assumption with nothing to support it. Nowhere in the bible is purgatory, forgiveness of sin after death, temporal punishment after death, or purification after death directly discussed. Not even the concept of the idea is ever directly discussed. Another example is Matthew 12:32.

“Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NLT‬‬

The catholic church makes the assumption that because Jesus said we will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come if we sin against the Holy Spirit that this indicates there is forgiveness of sin in the world to come. But that is not what Jesus said. In fact Jesus said the exact opposite. He said we won't be forgiven in the world to come. The catholic church is making an assumption that is not supported by any other scriptures in the bible. Next is Matthew 5:25-26

““When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison. And if that happens, you surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:25-26‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Here Jesus is teaching us that we need to reconcile our differences with others. If we don't forgive we will not be forgiven. Many people mistake this verse as being a parable but Jesus is speaking literally. At that time you could literally be thrown into prison for not paying a debt.

““You have heard that our ancestors were told, ‘You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.’ But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell. “So if you are presenting a sacrifice at the altar in the Temple and you suddenly remember that someone has something against you, leave your sacrifice there at the altar. Go and be reconciled to that person. Then come and offer your sacrifice to God. “When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison. And if that happens, you surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:21-26‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Notice that Jesus says "If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell". That is the prison Jesus is talking about. In hell the payment is eternal. The actual word Jesus used is Gehenna which is referring to hell. Jesus used the word Gehenna 11 times in the New Testament and in every case He was referring to hell. Here are some examples.

• Matthew 5:22: "....whoever shall say, "You fool," shall be guilty enough to go into Gehenna."
• Matthew 5:29: "....it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna."
• Matthew 5:30: "....better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into Gehenna."
• Matthew 10:28: "....rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
• Matthew 18:9: "It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than with two eyes to be thrown into the Gehenna."
• Matthew 23:15: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you... make one proselyte...twice as much a child of Gehenna as yourselves."
• Matthew 23:33, to the Pharisees: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you to escape the sentence of Gehenna?"
• Mark 9:43: "It is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into Gehenna into the unquenchable fire."
• Mark 9:45: "It is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into Gehenna."
• Mark 9:47: "It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna."
• Luke 12:5: "....fear the One who, after He has killed has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear Him."
• James 3:6: "And the tongue is a fire,...and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by Gehenna."

So his reference is the literal meaning of being in danger of being thrown into prison where you will not be released until you've paid the last penny. But in hell payment is eternal. You will never be released. So Jesus is not speaking of purgatory which is temporary punishment He is speaking of hell which is eternal punishment.

In every single case when you examine the scriptures that the catholic church uses to support purgatory you can see that purgatory is not being discussed. That is why in every case it is not a clear and direct teaching of purgatory and to come to the conclusion that they are referring to purgatory requires assumptions or trying to find some sort of hidden meaning within the scriptures. So be bold and stand confident in your faith that Jesus Christ has paid the price for your sins IN FULL!! He didn't suffer and sacrifice Himself on the cross to pay for some of your sins HE PAID FOR ALL OF THEM!! PRAISE THE LORD!! We are all unworthy of God's grace but because of our faith in Jesus Christ God has promised to forgive us of our all sins and remember them no more. PRAISE OUR HEAVENLY FATHER FOR HIS GRACE EVEN THO WE DON'T DESERVE IT!! AMEN!!

You have fixated your misunderstanding and do not seem to be able to get beyond it. Purgatory is mainly about sanctification, finishing that process in those who are saved. You can't get that for some reason, and can only see it as a way of earning salvation. Until you get over that mistake in understanding and realized that purgatory is not an end-run around Jesus, you have no way to go forward in understanding. I suppose you have been fed this misunderstanding of yours for years and years, and have become immune to any other understanding. Fine. I am comforted that I can be saved even though I am not perfect, if I but turn to Jesus and learn obedience to the way of life he is calling me to. If I am not perfect, he will perfect me eventually. That's what purgatory will do for me, finishing the job of instilling all the virtues in me, of removing all of the bad habits, of training me for praise unending where now I can manage only a few minutes at a time. I look forward to purgatory as the last preparation for coming home to be with Jesus. You can pretend for now that it is all impossible, and I'll see you there. I'm not going to repeat myself here.

 

[4x4toy]

So in purgatory, who pays for your sin ? Who judges the price ? Who receives the payment ? Can you use ill gotten gain ?

 

[chevyontheriver]

So in purgatory, who pays for your sin ? Who judges the price ? Who receives the payment ? Can you use ill gotten gain ?

What do you think?

 

[4x4toy]

What do you think?

If I were RC I would think Mary and the Saints could fix it for free from what I hear .. I really don't understand the concept of it to be honest . It sounds good and offers hope but the Word says to let the dead bury the dead .

 

[chevyontheriver]

If I were RC I would think Mary and the Saints could fix it for free from what I hear.

You'd think so. Solve it all in one stroke. We could be sanctified instantly, completely, and permanently all at once at the moment of our justification. But who here has come to faith and been baptized and the next day they are tempted by the same things, have the same bad habits, and manifestly are not fully sanctified (yet). Lots of people. I think the process of sanctification takes a long time for most all of us. It requires participation and some real work on our part.

I really don't understand the concept of it to be honest . It sounds good and offers hope.

It is complicated. It doesn't help that Protestantism has been so reductionist that it has for the most part lost the ability to comprehend what would be ordinary for the Orthodox and Catholics, who have kept alive the Jewish idea of praying for the dead as part of the Communion of the Saints. It seems crazy foreign to most Protestants, particularly those who think this is some sort of end-run around Jesus. It's not. Like everything in the Christian faith, it is powered by Jesus and what he accomplished in his death and resurrection.

Basically, there are sins which separate us from God. We can be forgiven those sins and thus end the separation. But some damage to the universe, to the community, to ourselves has not been repaired simply by being forgiven. We can make amends, we can undo the damage done. We can undo the damage done by others or by ourselves. It's different than guilt, and much more empirically evident. Look for example at the long term effect of the sin of slavery as just one example. Sin makes a mess of things. Penance is restorative.

... but the Word says to let the dead bury the dead .

One of the corporal works of mercy is to bury the dead. One of the spiritual works of mercy is to pray for the dead. We shouldn't let the dead rot in the streets. I think Jesus engaged in a tiny bit of hyperbole. I think he intended that we should pay real attention to the welfare and salvation of those still living. But to have no care at all for the dead, I don't think Jesus would want the dead rotting in the streets, nor the souls of those in Christ ignored either. Just my thought.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You have fixated your misunderstanding and do not seem to be able to get beyond it. Purgatory is mainly about sanctification, finishing that process in those who are saved. You can't get that for some reason, and can only see it as a way of earning salvation. Until you get over that mistake in understanding and realized that purgatory is not an end-run around Jesus, you have no way to go forward in understanding. I suppose you have been fed this misunderstanding of yours for years and years, and have become immune to any other understanding. Fine. I am comforted that I can be saved even though I am not perfect, if I but turn to Jesus and learn obedience to the way of life he is calling me to. If I am not perfect, he will perfect me eventually. That's what purgatory will do for me, finishing the job of instilling all the virtues in me, of removing all of the bad habits, of training me for praise unending where now I can manage only a few minutes at a time. I look forward to purgatory as the last preparation for coming home to be with Jesus. You can pretend for now that it is all impossible, and I'll see you there. I'm not going to repeat myself here.

“And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:11‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Ok there are ya happy now?


καὶ ταῦτα τινες ἦτε· ἀλλὰ ἀπελούσασθε, ἀλλὰ ἡγιάσθητε, ἀλλὰ ἐδικαιώθητε ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι τοῦ κυρίου [ἡμῶν] Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ ἐν τῷ πνεύματι τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν.

The Greek word ἡγιάσθητε means sanctified. Again past tense.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You'd think so. Solve it all in one stroke. We could be sanctified instantly, completely, and permanently all at once at the moment of our justification. But who here has come to faith and been baptized and the next day they are tempted by the same things, have the same bad habits, and manifestly are not fully sanctified (yet). Lots of people. I think the process of sanctification takes a long time for most all of us. It requires participation and some real work on our part.

It is complicated. It doesn't help that Protestantism has been so reductionist that it has for the most part lost the ability to comprehend what would be ordinary for the Orthodox and Catholics, who have kept alive the Jewish idea of praying for the dead as part of the Communion of the Saints. It seems crazy foreign to most Protestants, particularly those who think this is some sort of end-run around Jesus. It's not. Like everything in the Christian faith, it is powered by Jesus and what he accomplished in his death and resurrection.

Basically, there are sins which separate us from God. We can be forgiven those sins and thus end the separation. But some damage to the universe, to the community, to ourselves has not been repaired simply by being forgiven. We can make amends, we can undo the damage done. We can undo the damage done by others or by ourselves. It's different than guilt, and much more empirically evident. Look for example at the long term effect of the sin of slavery as just one example. Sin makes a mess of things. Penance is restorative.

One of the corporal works of mercy is to bury the dead. One of the spiritual works of mercy is to pray for the dead. We shouldn't let the dead rot in the streets. I think Jesus engaged in a tiny bit of hyperbole. I think he intended that we should pay real attention to the welfare and salvation of those still living. But to have no care at all for the dead, I don't think Jesus would want the dead rotting in the streets, nor the souls of those in Christ ignored either. Just my thought.

If I'm not mistaken orthodox don't believe in purgatory either. I think the RCC is on their own with that one.

 

[thecolorsblend]

It is complicated. It doesn't help that Protestantism has been so reductionist that it has for the most part lost the ability to comprehend what would be ordinary for the Orthodox and Catholics, who have kept alive the Jewish idea of praying for the dead as part of the Communion of the Saints. It seems crazy foreign to most Protestants, particularly those who think this is some sort of end-run around Jesus. It's not. Like everything in the Christian faith, it is powered by Jesus and what he accomplished in his death and resurrection.

Even though I used to be Protestant, it's sometimes hard to put myself back into that line of thinking.

But the way they seem to view it is as an all or nothing proposition. Our Lord single-handedly addresses all sins and all aspects of the problem of sin in one go. Any type of nuance beyond that rather simplistic statement is "adding to the word".

The idea that we participate in the process is troubling to them because they've adopted a tradition which views any human agency as "works-based". They say this while many of them readily acknowledge that "believe" is a verb, meaning an action, meaning a work.

Basically, there are sins which separate us from God. We can be forgiven those sins and thus end the separation. But some damage to the universe, to the community, to ourselves has not been repaired simply by being forgiven. We can make amends, we can undo the damage done. We can undo the damage done by others or by ourselves. It's different than guilt, and much more empirically evident. Look for example at the long term effect of the sin of slavery as just one example. Sin makes a mess of things. Penance is restorative.

This truism bugged the you know what out of me when I was a Protestant. I committed what the Catholic Church defines as a mortal sin and I prayed to God for forgiveness. And yet, I knew there was more to it than that. What I'd done was fine in its place. But there was a missing step that I needed to take. It was the Church that showed me what was missing and the realization of it was so flawlessly, perfectly logical that I was a little annoyed that I didn't make the change sooner.

If I'm not mistaken orthodox don't believe in purgatory either. I think the RCC is on their own with that one.

Purgatory - OrthodoxWiki

In brief, they don't call it Purgatory. But the transitional state of existence which they believe exists after death serves effectively the same function as Purgatory. So it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Their doctrine is less specific than Catholic doctrine, to be sure, but it's not exactly a night and day difference.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If I'm not mistaken orthodox don't believe in purgatory either. I think the RCC is on their own with that one.

They do pray for their dead, so whatever issue they have with purgatory as understood by Catholics, they already have the significant part. The Orthodox don't like a lot of Catholic formulations for a lot of things, but when it comes right down to it, the beliefs are incredibly similar. On purgatory as well, though they would never want to actually use that word.

 

[chevyontheriver]

“And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:11‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Ok there are ya happy now?

We've come full circle, and I commend you on your perfect, completed sanctification. Me? I have a long way to go. God's not done with me yet.

By the way, I did explain that this verse is about baptism, which even Catholics admit washes away all guilt and leaves a person entirely sanctified at that moment. Not permanently. The next day most people sin again, sullying that perfect sanctification. And so the need to confess, be reconciled, get back on the bus and repair the damage done. But you are entirely completely sanctified for all time. That's great. If it's true.