Is Paul's issue sin or the law?

[ToBeLoved]

The reason this doctrine is being promoted is because some here want to add members to their religious organization to the detriment of their victims.

bugkiller

Could definately be that.

Could also be those who believe that 'Christians' ride the coat tails of the Jews. Can't tell you how many times I've heard. "If it wasn't for Israel, the Gentiles would not have been brought into the Kindgom".

Which is a BIG lol, because God always intended to bring the gentiles in.

Jealousy because we are following God and His New Covenant where others are not. But then they have their law, Old Covenant which Jesus came to fulfill, but they point back too. It's like be who you want to be. CHristianity does not care. Just keep your Old Covenant bits to yourself as your choice. Not coming running over to the Christians and insist the law is still valid?

Then they wonder why we are not welcoming. Overstepping boundaries. On their side, we don't go over and play in their sandbox.

And they prey on the weak ones. That's enough to light my candle and keep it lit.

When people compromise boundaries and do not stay in their lane, but push their beliefs on others with this "Jesus was a Jew and followed ALL of the Jewish law" which would make some sense to the unsuspecting weaker Christian. That is out of line because they use it out of context.

 

[bugkiller]

The Word of God (ie the whole Bible, ie the Old and New Testament).

So then, if the Old Covenant was made with Israel alone, but is part of the Bible, which it is. Your statement makes no sense at all.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. I am confuzzled.

I'll ask one more time for any quote you might provide saying the covenant with Israel is written on anyone's heart.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Could definately be that.

Could also be those who believe that 'Christians' ride the coat tails of the Jews. Can't tell you how many times I've heard. "If it wasn't for Israel, the Gentiles would not have been brought into the Kindgom".

Which is a BIG lol, because God always intended to bring the gentiles in.

Jealousy because we are following God and His New Covenant where others are not. But then they have their law, Old Covenant which Jesus came to fulfill, but they point back too. It's like be who you want to be. CHristianity does not care. Just keep your Old Covenant bits to yourself as your choice. Not coming running over to the Christians and insist the law is still valid?

Then they wonder why we are not welcoming. Overstepping boundaries. On their side, we don't go over and play in their sandbox.

And they prey on the weak ones. That's enough to light my candle and keep it lit.

When people compromise boundaries and do not stay in their lane, but push their beliefs on others with this "Jesus was a Jew and followed ALL of the Jewish law" which would make some sense to the unsuspecting weaker Christian. That is out of line because they use it out of context.

They won't let you play in their sand box here. Doing so would gat one banned. Ask me how I know? (rhetorical question).

bugkiller

 

[ToBeLoved]

They won't let you play in their sand box here. Doing so would gat one banned. Ask me how I know? (rhetorical question).

bugkiller

Why would this get one banned? I'm not understanding?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Neverminnd. I think I get what you're saying now.

 

[BukiRob]

I'll ask one more time for any quote you might provide saying the covenant with Israel is written on anyone's heart.

bugkiller

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Ezekiel 36:25-27
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Jeremiah 32:40
I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.

 

[bugkiller]

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Ezekiel 36:25-27
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Jeremiah 32:40
I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.

Ah but you only wish to quote part of a sentence to support your view.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

You wish to disregard some words and phrases such which have been highlighted. I can and have presented the truth about these phrases you cn't get around several times over the past few years.

Even your quote from Jer 32 shows the previous covenant will be removed.

No where do the verses quoted suggest anything about the law (covenant made exclusively with Israel) being written on anyone's heart.

Furthermore to support your idea one has to say the words of Jesus are a lie as quoted and found in the Gospels.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Could definately be that.

Could also be those who believe that 'Christians' ride the coat tails of the Jews. Can't tell you how many times I've heard. "If it wasn't for Israel, the Gentiles would not have been brought into the Kindgom".

Which is a BIG lol, because God always intended to bring the gentiles in.

Jealousy because we are following God and His New Covenant where others are not. But then they have their law, Old Covenant which Jesus came to fulfill, but they point back too. It's like be who you want to be. CHristianity does not care. Just keep your Old Covenant bits to yourself as your choice. Not coming running over to the Christians and insist the law is still valid?

Then they wonder why we are not welcoming. Overstepping boundaries. On their side, we don't go over and play in their sandbox.

And they prey on the weak ones. That's enough to light my candle and keep it lit.

When people compromise boundaries and do not stay in their lane, but push their beliefs on others with this "Jesus was a Jew and followed ALL of the Jewish law" which would make some sense to the unsuspecting weaker Christian. That is out of line because they use it out of context.

Religious people don't care. Christians do care. Yes I fully understand there are those fence riders I call religious Christians. They're real Christians who've swallowed and follow religion and not led by the Holy Spirit. Yes I understand and was almost destroyed by them. Thank God, He set me free.

bugkiller

 

[BukiRob]

Ah but you only wish to quote part of a sentence to support your view.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

You wish to disregard some words and phrases such which have been highlighted. I can and have presented the truth about these phrases you cn't get around several times over the past few years.

Even your quote from Jer 32 shows the previous covenant will be removed.

No where do the verses quoted suggest anything about the law (covenant made exclusively with Israel) being written on anyone's heart.

Furthermore to support your idea one has to say the words of Jesus are a lie as quoted and found in the Gospels.

bugkiller

Talk about ignoring what is written!!!

So please do tell us, just how is what Ive been saying any different than that what Jeremiah is saying? The new covenant is the TORAH WRITTEN ON YOUR HEART AND IN YOUR MIND.... that is exactly what he is saying there..

You on the other hand have been advocating for some mythical do your own thing nebulous no where found in scripture deal.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Ah but you only wish to quote part of a sentence to support your view.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

You wish to disregard some words and phrases such which have been highlighted. I can and have presented the truth about these phrases you cn't get around several times over the past few years.

Even your quote from Jer 32 shows the previous covenant will be removed.

No where do the verses quoted suggest anything about the law (covenant made exclusively with Israel) being written on anyone's heart.

Furthermore to support your idea one has to say the words of Jesus are a lie as quoted and found in the Gospels.

bugkiller

You are missing the whole point. What you should be looking at is verse 33, "After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; ". Verse 31 is talking about the New Covenant (Jesus Christ). Verse 32 is talking about the Old Covenant (Moses) which they broke. Verse 33 is talking about the New Covenant (Jesus) again.

I'm not sure how you can deny that bolded text above, which obviously says that the law is written on our hearts.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Talk about ignoring what is written!!!

So please do tell us, just how is what Ive been saying any different than that what Jeremiah is saying? The new covenant is the TORAH WRITTEN ON YOUR HEART AND IN YOUR MIND.... that is exactly what he is saying there..

You on the other hand have been advocating for some mythical do your own thing nebulous no where found in scripture deal.

The Law is not the Torah. My understanding is the Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible. Is this true?

If it is, then you are saying something different.

 

[BukiRob]

The Law is not the Torah. My understanding is the Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible. Is this true?

If it is, then you are saying something different.

The whole of the Torah is the entire OT.... this is why Yeshua answer the question about which is the greatest of commandments the way he does. If you will recall he finishes his statement by saying On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

More specifically the word law is mistranslated and the Hebrew carries a much closer understanding of INSTRUCTION. The law is found in the first 5 books, civil, dietary and religious are all found in those first 5. The writings and prophets expand on the Torah and show the spirit of the instruction and much if not most of it is an expository of HOW we are to love one another and G-d....

What believer does not want this?? How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers! But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night. He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, Which yields its fruit in its season And its leaf does not wither; And in whatever he does, he prospers.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Furthermore to support your idea one has to say the words of Jesus are a lie as quoted and found in the Gospels.

bugkiller

What is this about? You say that the words of Jesus in the Gospels are a lie?

This should be interesting. How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[ToBeLoved]

The whole of the Torah is the entire OT.... this is why Yeshua answer the question about which is the greatest of commandments the way he does. If you will recall he finishes his statement by saying On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Well you just said it yourself. The law is not the Torah. The Torah is the entire OT.

The Law is specific. Laws given by God in a covenant with Israel.

I think you might be mixed up in your understanding of what the law is.

 

[BukiRob]

Well you just said it yourself. The law is not the Torah. The Torah is the entire OT.

The Law is specific. Laws given by God in a covenant with Israel.

I think you might be mixed up in your understanding of what the law is.

No, you apparently don't understand what I am saying. You believe somehow that the law(TORAH) is bad and in fact it is not.

Paul specifically declares rightfully, that it is HOLY. The law has existed forever. Scripture tells us that... speaking of the Torah we are told in proverbs that it was with the Father in the beginning.

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. "From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth. "When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water. "Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. "When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep, When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And having my delight in the sons of men. "Now therefore, O sons, listen to me, For blessed are they who keep my ways. "Heed instruction and be wise, And do not neglect it. Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at my doorposts. "For he who finds me finds life And obtains favor from the LORD. "But he who sins against me injures himself; All those who hate me love death."

Israel is who Adonai made the covenant with. HIS chosen people.

The problem those who reject Torah have, is that Torah was available to ANY who chose to seek after it. Before Messiah, they had to convert and be circumcised if they wanted to partake of the Passover Seder. Today that covenant is with ALL mankind and HIS Torah is written on our hearts and in our mind.

Scripture DOES NOT LIE. Nor does it fade away or is no longer applicable in any way, shape or form.... when it says those who HATE Torah love death, that is exactly what it means. It is as true today as it was the day those words were first uttered.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No, you apparently don't understand what I am saying. You believe somehow that the law(TORAH) is bad and in fact it is not.

Paul specifically declares rightfully, that it is HOLY. The law has existed forever. Scripture tells us that... speaking of the Torah we are told in proverbs that it was with the Father in the beginning.

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. "From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth. "When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water. "Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. "When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep, When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And having my delight in the sons of men. "Now therefore, O sons, listen to me, For blessed are they who keep my ways. "Heed instruction and be wise, And do not neglect it. Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at my doorposts. "For he who finds me finds life And obtains favor from the LORD. "But he who sins against me injures himself; All those who hate me love death."

Israel is who Adonai made the covenant with. HIS chosen people.

The problem those who reject Torah have, is that Torah was available to ANY who chose to seek after it. Before Messiah, they had to convert and be circumcised if they wanted to partake of the Passover Seder. Today that covenant is with ALL mankind and HIS Torah is written on our hearts and in our mind.

Scripture DOES NOT LIE. Nor does it fade away or is no longer applicable in any way, shape or form.... when it says those who HATE Torah love death, that is exactly what it means. It is as true today as it was the day those words were first uttered.

It says His Word is written on our hearts. All of the Bible.

 

[BukiRob]

It says His Word is written on our hearts. All of the Bible.

Where? Jeremiah 31:31-34“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

This prophecy is speaking about the current covenant G-d has made with ALL his children. This is the Messianic Covenant

 

[bugkiller]

Talk about ignoring what is written!!!

So please do tell us, just how is what Ive been saying any different than that what Jeremiah is saying? The new covenant is the TORAH WRITTEN ON YOUR HEART AND IN YOUR MIND.... that is exactly what he is saying there..

You on the other hand have been advocating for some mythical do your own thing nebulous no where found in scripture deal.

Just what is the covenant made with Israel?

There is absolutely nothing in Jeremiah saying the covenant made with Israel alone is written on anyone's heart. The word "new" doesn't imply movement from stone to our heart. The phrase "not according to" further makes the case it won't be the same.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

You are missing the whole point. What you should be looking at is verse 33, "After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; ". Verse 31 is talking about the New Covenant (Jesus Christ). Verse 32 is talking about the Old Covenant (Moses) which they broke. Verse 33 is talking about the New Covenant (Jesus) again.

I'm not sure how you can deny that bolded text above, which obviously says that the law is written on our hearts.

Ah yes the rest of the sentence should be ignored. ehehehehehe

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The Law is not the Torah. My understanding is the Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible. Is this true?

If it is, then you are saying something different.

at least you're great entertainment.

bugkiller