Is Paul's issue sin or the law?

[bugkiller]

YOu are arguing semantics. The OT tells us from the beginning what the New Covenant is... that ADONAI will write the Law on our hearts and in our minds.

So, if indeed the Law is done away with (as you incorrectly suggest) then why is it observed in the Mellinium? Why does Revelations specifically state that if the nations refuse to observe the feast requirement to appear in the New Jerusalem that it will not rain in their lands?
And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. (Zechariah 14:17)

CLEARLY this prophecy has NOT yet been fulfilled so this is clearly speaking about Christ's reign during the millennium

Further more you make the grave mistake that Peter warns about regarding Paul's teaching.... 2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Finally Paul himself in Romans declares that the Torah is HOLY.

Now, you have scripture itself declaring the following about the Torah... that it is HOLY, LIFE, TRUTH, Honor is found with it... Wisdom and Discretion, Length of days and even wealth itself....

Now I ask you... why does one need deliverance from something that is Holy, is Life, truth, honor, wisdom, discretion, length of days....

Paul must be speaking about something else... people confuse the law of SIN AND DEATH with the Torah... we are indeed freed from the law of SIN AND DEATH....

More importantly, Messiah NEVER spoke about the Torah being done away with... NEVER in fact Messiah said the EXACT OPPOSITE and said so plainly....

Please quote and reference any passage you can saying the covenant given to Israel alone is written on anyone's heart.

bugkiller

 

[ToBeLoved]

So do you interpret the "law of sin and death" in Romans 8:1-4 to be the Torah of Moses or that the law of sin and death is referring to the fallen sinful nature of mankind ?

No one could keep the law, so everyone sinned under the law, which before the forgiveness of sins through the permanent atonement for sins and the forgiveness of sin, lead to spiritual death because God and man were not reconciled back to one another yet.

 

[bugkiller]

It states that upon those two commandments hang ALL the Law and the Prophets. Which confers with what Messiah said in Matthew 5:17

3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.​

Messiah is the end of the law "for righteousness". Messiah did not come to make an 'end of the law'. Israel was ignorant of 'the righteousness of God', and sought to establish their own (righteousness), they did not submit to 'God's righteousness'. Messiah is the end of (using) the law for righteousness. Again, read Matthew 5:17

Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?​

Again, obedient (to the faith) that leads to righteousness. Not obedient to a law of sin and death which leads to righteousness... We are not under the law so as to think it will bring righteousness. We are under the law of Messiah, which ALL the law and the prophets hang upon.

When genitles 'do what the law requires', though they were never given the law personally as Jews.

15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)​

Gentiles have the requirements of the law 'written on their hearts'. Not because they are 'under' the law 'for righteousness' sake, but because they are doing by nature what the law requires. Because it is being written upon their hearts. Though, not for righteousness sake.

We're not slaves to the law per Romans 6-7. The law is dead (Rom 7). We're dead to the law (Rom 6).

bugkiller

 

[ToBeLoved]

Quite the contrary. You fail to recognize a few things.... all of the writers of the NT with the exception of Luke were JEWS.

When John says in the beginning was the WORD.... just what word do you think he is talking about?

John was a Jew... the word for John=Torah

And both Paul and Peter as well as other Jews were eating non-kosher food with the Gentiles which PROVES they were no longer keeping the law.

And those were apostles. Not just any believers.

They were setting the example that under Jesus Christ and the New Covenant the law has been fulfilled.

PERIOD.

So your Jew theory flies right out the window.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Please quote and reference anyu passage you can saying the covenant given to Israel alone is written on anyone's heart.

bugkiller

The Word is written on our hearts. The law as part of biblical history is included in that, but it is not in effect because of Jesus and the New Covenant.

The law people will come around now. They'll send em' over. But we have God's Word on our side. They'll get tired after a while when they cannot prove the law is still in effect.

If the Messianic Jews want to still hold to the law and disobey Christ that is there issue, but it is sinful for them to try to push the law on Gentiles, because the Word of God CLEARLY says that the Law IS NOT FOR GENTILES.

But disobedient in one issue, usually disobedient in many.

 

[bugkiller]

Jesus IS THE TORAH BECOME FLESH. The New covenant is the TORAH is written on your hearts and in your mind! It is NOT done away with...

It appears you don't believe the prophets.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The Word is written on our hearts. The law as part of biblical history is included in that, but it is not in effect because of Jesus and the New Covenant.

The law people will come around now. They'll send em' over.

Sorry but you didn't meet the requirement of my post. You can't because there isn't any. Check mate!

bugkiller

 

[ToBeLoved]

Certainly you don't believe that the "just requirement of the Torah" actually excludes the Ten Commandments as a "just requirement" ? With the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit why would you not desire to keep the Ten Commandments when it's now possible to: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, Love your neighbor as yourself."

Because Jesus gave us His two most important commandments. When God Himself fulfills the Old Covenant and gives us a New Covenant, then I follow God.

It is odd that some who believe in salvation through Jesus Christ AND the New Covenant choose to go against His New Covenant. The covenant that He DIED to give us. Some of us obey, some do not. I would think you would obey God, but you choose to be in disobedience.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus IS THE TORAH BECOME FLESH. The New covenant is the TORAH is written on your hearts and in your mind! It is NOT done away with...

It is fulfilled, not done away with. It is still holy, but we are not held to the holiness of the Old Covenant, because no one in Israel could keep it. No one. So under the Old Covenant all are guilty of breaking it.

In fulfilling the Old Covenant, Jesus brought in the NEW and BETTER covenant. The Word of God tells us that, but some would rather not follow Jesus commands.

 

[BukiRob]

It appears you don't believe the prophets.

bugkiller

No, what is apparent is you refuse to see what is plainly in front of you. Quite the contrary I do believe the prophets...

 

[BukiRob]

And both Paul and Peter as well as other Jews were eating non-kosher food with the Gentiles which PROVES they were no longer keeping the law.

And those were apostles. Not just any believers.

They were setting the example that under Jesus Christ and the New Covenant the law has been fulfilled.

PERIOD.

So your Jew theory flies right out the window.

Uh show me scripture that supports your position that the apostles no long observed the dietary requirements of Torah.

 

[BukiRob]

It is fulfilled, not done away with. It is still holy, but we are not held to the holiness of the Old Covenant, because no one in Israel could keep it. No one. So under the Old Covenant all are guilty of breaking it.

In fulfilling the Old Covenant, Jesus brought in the NEW and BETTER covenant. The Word of God tells us that, but some would rather not follow Jesus commands.

Pleroo is the greek word translated as fulfilled. However, most people seem to be very confused as to what that word actually means.

Strongs defines it clearly. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment.

So yes, if you mean Fulfill= to obey the Torah as it should be obeyed and the Fathers promises given through the prophets to come about then we do agree.

However, you try to use Pleroo to mean something it does not mean....

 

[BukiRob]

It is fulfilled, not done away with. It is still holy, but we are not held to the holiness of the Old Covenant, because no one in Israel could keep it. No one. So under the Old Covenant all are guilty of breaking it.

In fulfilling the Old Covenant, Jesus brought in the NEW and BETTER covenant. The Word of God tells us that, but some would rather not follow Jesus commands.

Really? So you just pick and choose, distort here, twist there until you have your own way of doing things?

What, you ignore Messiah's own words? As John puts it PLAINLY:
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Funny how you preach a doctrine that declares Torah is the old covenant..... we are under grace with no obligation of obedience....

Yet, why is it then that during the millennial reign that those who do not observe the Feast requirements will have rain withheld from their lands.

Zechariah 14: 16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

Chapter 12 on is CLEARLY, UNMISTAKABLY has not come to pass and speaks directly concerning the end times. So, please, by all means please explain how we have Torah, then no Torah and then suddenly Torah again.... I wait for your response.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sorry but you didn't meet the requirement of my post. You can't because there isn't any. Check mate!

bugkiller

Wow! Such a rebuttal with no substance. No bug killing that's going on here, just some unsubstatiated opinion.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Really? So you just pick and choose, distort here, twist there until you have your own way of doing things?

What, you ignore Messiah's own words? As John puts it PLAINLY:
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

And Jesus own words were that the two commandments that fulfill all of the law are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and minds and to love your neighbor as yourself.

We all try to walk as Jesus walked.

Knowing that Christ fulfilled the Law changes nothing about how we walk with Christ. As a matter of fact, it makes us free to walk with Christ knowing that we have the New Covenant. A NEW and BETTER Covenant.

That is what you should be doing also. Walking in the freedom of God's grace and forgiveness. Not going back to the Law that Jesus died to free us from. Going backwards is not going forward.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Funny how you preach a doctrine that declares Torah is the old covenant..... we are under grace with no obligation of obedience....

Why is that funny WHEN the Torah IS the Old Covenant. You make me Your own words show your confusion.

 

[BukiRob]

And Jesus own words were that the two commandments that fulfill all of the law are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and minds and to love your neighbor as yourself.

We all try to walk as Jesus walked.

Knowing that Christ fulfilled the Law changes nothing about how we walk with Christ. As a matter of fact, it makes us free to walk with Christ knowing that we have the New Covenant. A NEW and BETTER Covenant.

That is what you should be doing also. Walking in the freedom of God's grace and forgiveness. Not going back to the Law that Jesus died to free us from. Going backwards is not going forward.

Wow, boy do you take what he says out of context.

Instead of taking your distortion of what Messiah says lets actually look at what he says shall we?

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

The word in verse 40 DEPENDS is kremannumi: depend (1), hanged (1), hanging (3), hangs (1), hung (1). Strong specifically assigns depends as the use of Kremannumi in that verse.

Depends is defined by Dictionary.com as to rely; place trust (usually followed by on or upon)

It never ceases to amaze me how people get things so backwards......

The ENTIRE Torah exists to give us a pattern of HOW to Love G-d and HOW to love our neighbor.

IF you really believed that you are living a life that walks in what Yeshua is talking about there in Matthew you would rejoice in the Torah because everything about it is the practical day to day of the HOW you go about loving your fellow man and HOW you are to go about loving the Father.

Scripture talks at some length about the EVIL of doing right in your own eyes.

There is much to be gleaned of the Parable of the Prodigal Son.....

 

[BukiRob]

Why is that funny WHEN the Torah IS the Old Covenant. You make me Your own words show your confusion.

Really? Must you take things completely out of the context in which they are communicated? Its really rather intellectually dishonest

 

[ToBeLoved]

Funny how you preach a doctrine that declares Torah is the old covenant..... we are under grace with no obligation of obedience....

Everyone knows that the Torah is Old Covenant and Old Testament.

I didn't say that because we are under grace we are not to be obedient. Those are your words, not mine. We have been commanded by Christ to follow the two commandments that He left us with.

Again, Jesus fulfilled the Law and gave us the two most important commandments to follow which FULFILL all of the Law when followed.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Wow, boy do you take what he says out of context.

Instead of taking your distortion of what Messiah says lets actually look at what he says shall we?

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

The word in verse 40 DEPENDS is kremannumi: depend (1), hanged (1), hanging (3), hangs (1), hung (1). Strong specifically assigns depends as the use of Kremannumi in that verse.

Depends is defined by Dictionary.com as to rely; place trust (usually followed by on or upon)

It never ceases to amaze me how people get things so backwards......

The ENTIRE Torah exists to give us a pattern of HOW to Love G-d and HOW to love our neighbor.

IF you really believed that you are living a life that walks in what Yeshua is talking about there in Matthew you would rejoice in the Torah because everything about it is the practical day to day of the HOW you go about loving your fellow man and HOW you are to go about loving the Father.

Scripture talks at some length about the EVIL of doing right in your own eyes.

There is much to be gleaned of the Parable of the Prodigal Son.....

It doesn't change that we were given the two most important commandments to follow by Christ.

I don't rejoice in the Torah which has passed away. I rejoice in Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.