Is Paul's issue sin or the law?

[bugkiller]

The whole of the Torah is the entire OT.... this is why Yeshua answer the question about which is the greatest of commandments the way he does. If you will recall he finishes his statement by saying On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

More specifically the word law is mistranslated and the Hebrew carries a much closer understanding of INSTRUCTION. The law is found in the first 5 books, civil, dietary and religious are all found in those first 5. The writings and prophets expand on the Torah and show the spirit of the instruction and much if not most of it is an expository of HOW we are to love one another and G-d....

What believer does not want this?? How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers! But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night. He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, Which yields its fruit in its season And its leaf does not wither; And in whatever he does, he prospers.

Are you remotely trying to say we're to walk in the covenant made with Israel only at Mt Sinai? Do you have any idea what that means?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

What is this about? You say that the words of Jesus in the Gospels are a lie?

This should be interesting. How did you come to that conclusion?

No, that isn't remotely what I said.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

No, you apparently don't understand what I am saying. You believe somehow that the law(TORAH) is bad and in fact it is not.

No one here is saying the law is bad.

Paul specifically declares rightfully, that it is HOLY. The law has existed forever. Scripture tells us that... speaking of the Torah we are told in proverbs that it was with the Father in the beginning.

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. "From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth. "When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water. "Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. "When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep, When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And having my delight in the sons of men. "Now therefore, O sons, listen to me, For blessed are they who keep my ways. "Heed instruction and be wise, And do not neglect it. Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at my doorposts. "For he who finds me finds life And obtains favor from the LORD. "But he who sins against me injures himself; All those who hate me love death."

Israel is who Adonai made the covenant with. HIS chosen people.

Are you denying there's an active new covenant against the words of Jesus found in 3 Gospels?

The problem those who reject Torah have, is that Torah was available to ANY who chose to seek after it. Before Messiah, they had to convert and be circumcised if they wanted to partake of the Passover Seder. Today that covenant is with ALL mankind and HIS Torah is written on our hearts and in our mind.

No. You're trying to amend the covenant given to Israel at Sinai. There's nothing in the Bible to support such nonsense. Please review Rom 7:6.

Scripture DOES NOT LIE. Nor does it fade away or is no longer applicable in any way, shape or form.... when it says those who HATE Torah love death, that is exactly what it means. It is as true today as it was the day those words were first uttered.

Yep you're correct, the Bible doesn't lie.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

It says His Word is written on our hearts. All of the Bible.

Then the question becomes what is that Word. I gather you think its the covenant issued at Sinai. Such is contrary to the prophets and Jesus, et all.

bugkiller

 

[BukiRob]

Just what is the covenant made with Israel?

There is absolutely nothing in Jeremiah saying the covenant made with Israel alone is written on anyone's heart. The word "new" doesn't imply movement from stone to our heart. The phrase "not according to" further makes the case it won't be the same.

bugkiller

You STILL do not get it. The covenants, ALL OF THEM are FIRST with Israel and THEN with the goyim (sojourner/alien/foreigner) Adonia chose 1st the Jew and if any of the rest of mankind wanted to follow after him he or she could do so and were "grafted in." You conveniently ignore what is written that there is to be ONE LAW for both the Israelite and the foreigner among you.

 

[BukiRob]

No one here is saying the law is bad.Are you denying there's an active new covenant against the words of Jesus found in 3 Gospels?No. You're trying to amend the covenant given to Israel at Sinai. There's nothing in the Bible to support such nonsense. Please review Rom 7:6.Yep you're correct, the Bible doesn't lie.

bugkiller

Yet again, you are wrong.

Exodus 12:49 "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

Leviticus 24:22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'"

Numbers 15:16 'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.'

There is 1 law for ALL MANKIND. Paul says as much calling it the natural law that when a man who is goy does what is right under the law....but to be formally IN COVENANT required the goy to come under the Torah. With the new (renewed) covenant males are NOT required to have a physical circumcision (unless you want to partake of the passover)

The BIG LIE that has its root in the early catholic church, is that the Torah is done away with. That "christians" are "free from the law" and are not under any of the decree's BY G-D to observe ANY of the appointed times. This thinking is utter rubbish....

 

[ToBeLoved]

You STILL do not get it. The covenants, ALL OF THEM are FIRST with Israel and THEN with the goyim (sojourner/alien/foreigner) Adonia chose 1st the Jew and if any of the rest of mankind wanted to follow after him he or she could do so and were "grafted in." You conveniently ignore what is written that there is to be ONE LAW for both the Israelite and the foreigner among you.

I didn't read what you say. Jesus and the disciples first went to Israel, before the Gentiles.

The New Covenant is NOT only for whoever follows after Israel. First to the Jew, THEN to the Gentile

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yet again, you are wrong.

Exodus 12:49 "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

Leviticus 24:22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'"

Numbers 15:16 'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.'

There is 1 law for ALL MANKIND. Paul says as much calling it the natural law that when a man who is goy does what is right under the law....but to be formally IN COVENANT required the goy to come under the Torah. With the new (renewed) covenant males are NOT required to have a physical circumcision (unless you want to partake of the passover)

The BIG LIE that has its root in the early catholic church, is that the Torah is done away with. That "christians" are "free from the law" and are not under any of the decree's BY G-D to observe ANY of the appointed times. This thinking is utter rubbish....

What is rubbish is thinking is that Jesus came to earth and died just to keep the old covenant.

Let's get real.

 

[bugkiller]

You STILL do not get it. The covenants, ALL OF THEM are FIRST with Israel and THEN with the goyim (sojourner/alien/foreigner) Adonia chose 1st the Jew and if any of the rest of mankind wanted to follow after him he or she could do so and were "grafted in." You conveniently ignore what is written that there is to be ONE LAW for both the Israelite and the foreigner among you.

I guess you're right. I just don't get it. Maybe that is 'cuse I read the whole Bible.

I'm not a sojourner in Israel or with Jews. I live in a nation of gentiles that Jews have come to live in. They are the sojourner/alien/foreigner.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yet again, you are wrong.

Exodus 12:49 "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

Leviticus 24:22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'"

Numbers 15:16 'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.'

There is 1 law for ALL MANKIND. Paul says as much calling it the natural law that when a man who is goy does what is right under the law....but to be formally IN COVENANT required the goy to come under the Torah. With the new (renewed) covenant males are NOT required to have a physical circumcision (unless you want to partake of the passover)

The BIG LIE that has its root in the early catholic church, is that the Torah is done away with. That "christians" are "free from the law" and are not under any of the decree's BY G-D to observe ANY of the appointed times. This thinking is utter rubbish....

I see you have a reading problem.

The natural law isn't the subject being discussed. Since the law was added, it isn't natural.

No the free from the law isn't rubbish from the Roman Catholic Church unless of course you're calling Paul a RCC. That is impossible because it didn't have sway until the 6th century. You're conflating the early Church with the RCC. This is unreasonable and unsupportable. You're still trying to subject Christians to Judaism. There's no requirement in the NT (new covenant) to observe days. Those who judge others as sinners violate the new covenant and disbelieve the Bible.

bugkiller

 

[Open Heart]

Before Messiah, they had to convert and be circumcised if they wanted to partake of the Passover Seder. Today that covenant is with ALL mankind and HIS Torah is written on our hearts and in our mind.

Now, that's two DIFFERENT covenants. The Covenant where one is circumcised and remembers the Exodus with a Seder meal is not the New Covenant. The first is for the People of Israel and the promise is for the Land. The second is for all humanity and the promise is for eternal life.

 

[Open Heart]

ONE LAW for both the Israelite and the foreigner among you.

Right. This applies to the Gentile that literally lives among Israel, within the community, aka lives in the Land of Israel. It does NOT apply to Gentiles out in the regular world, because such are not "among you." Nor is "among you" figurative.

 

[Open Heart]

I guess you're right. I just don't get it. Maybe that is 'cuse I read the whole Bible.

I'm not a sojourner in Israel or with Jews. I live in a nation of gentiles that Jews have come to live in. They are the sojourner/alien/foreigner.

bugkiller

Right on.

 

[Open Heart]

You're conflating the early Church with the RCC.

Ignatius, letter to the Church at Smyrna, 108 AD "Catholic Church"
Obviously the Church that had begun at pentecost came to be called the Catholic Church.

 

[bugkiller]

Ignatius, letter to the Church at Smyrna, 108 AD "Catholic Church"
Obviously the Church that had begun at pentecost came to be called the Catholic Church.

Catholic Church, yes. Roman Catholic Church, No!!!!! Those are two very different groups of people.

bugkiller

 

[Open Heart]

Catholic Church, yes. Roman Catholic Church, No!!!!! Those are two very different groups of people.

bugkiller

Not at all. "Roman" Catholic Church is simply slang for Catholic Church.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Not at all. "Roman" Catholic Church is simply slang for Catholic Church.

I agree.

 

[BukiRob]

Right. This applies to the Gentile that literally lives among Israel, within the community, aka lives in the Land of Israel. It does NOT apply to Gentiles out in the regular world, because such are not "among you." Nor is "among you" figurative.

Very disingenuous. It is speaking about where the gentiles heart was. There was no reason for a goy to be among israel UNLESS he or she was seeking to be in relationship with the Father.

 

[BukiRob]

Now, that's two DIFFERENT covenants. The Covenant where one is circumcised and remembers the Exodus with a Seder meal is not the New Covenant. The first is for the People of Israel and the promise is for the Land. The second is for all humanity and the promise is for eternal life.

Never said it was

 

[BukiRob]

I see you have a reading problem.

The natural law isn't the subject being discussed. Since the law was added, it isn't natural.

No the free from the law isn't rubbish from the Roman Catholic Church unless of course you're calling Paul a RCC. That is impossible because it didn't have sway until the 6th century. You're conflating the early Church with the RCC. This is unreasonable and unsupportable. You're still trying to subject Christians to Judaism. There's no requirement in the NT (new covenant) to observe days. Those who judge others as sinners violate the new covenant and disbelieve the Bible.

bugkiller

Nope, but thanks for twisting what I said.

I am for being obedient to the decree set forth in scripture.