Is Mary the Queen of Heaven?

[~Anastasia~]

I think the part that made me understand was knowing some of the heretical teachings of Sergius Bulgakov - who promoted something similar to her almost being part of the Holy Trinity.

I’ve never taken it that way in the liturgy myself - but I can understand the feeling, especially when first hearing the liturgy. For me, I didn’t see it has her being part of the Holy Trinity - but the hymns about / to her were confusing to me regarding her role.

Yes, certainly some things needed clarifying for me. That much is very true!

I just never got any hint of her being part of the Trinity, so that sounded WAY out in left field to me.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The Father clearly loves the one He chose to bear His Son. The Son clearly honored His earthly mother by telling St. John to behold mother Mary as the mother of St. John ( John 19:26-27).

Isn't Mary's rank far above the saints?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Isn't Mary's rank far above the saints?

in her closeness to her Son, yes. but she is the example of what a human person can be.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yes, certainly some things needed clarifying for me. That much is very true!

I just never got any hint of her being part of the Trinity, so that sounded WAY out in left field to me.

I'm referring to the Panagia, while lifted up is verbally associated with the Trinity.

Then, taking the Panagia in his fingertips, he lifts it up while saying, "Great is the name," and then the community continues with "of the Holy Trinity." The rite then continues with, "O All-holy Mother of God, help us!" with the reply, "At her prayers, O God, have mercy and save us."

Panagia - Wikipedia

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm referring to the Panagia, while lifted up is verbally associated with the Trinity.

Then, taking the Panagia in his fingertips, he lifts it up while saying, "Great is the name," and then the community continues with "of the Holy Trinity." The rite then continues with, "O All-holy Mother of God, help us!" with the reply, "At her prayers, O God, have mercy and save us."

Panagia - Wikipedia

of course she is associated with the Trinity, as she is the Mother of the Son. but even in this quote here, the saving is done by God.

 

[All4Christ]

I'm referring to the Panagia, while lifted up is verbally associated with the Trinity.

Then, taking the Panagia in his fingertips, he lifts it up while saying, "Great is the name," and then the community continues with "of the Holy Trinity." The rite then continues with, "O All-holy Mother of God, help us!" with the reply, "At her prayers, O God, have mercy and save us."

Panagia - Wikipedia

The two sentences aren’t directly connected. The priest glorifies the Holy Trinity. Then he asks for the Mother of God to intercede for us. They are two separate statements - and is not intended to mean that Mary is one of the Trinity.

ETA: Also - The priest makes the sign of the cross - hence the statement about the Holy Trinity. The “lifting” of the Panagia with the words you quoted are part of a rite specific to some monasteries.

 

[narnia59]

I just wonder, in Luke 11:27 we read this:

As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!”

And Jesus replies:

But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Jesus didn't seem to encourage what the woman was saying. Why did he do this?

Merriam-Webster's online definition for 'rather'
1 : with better reason or more propriety : more properly
2 : more readily or willingly : PREFERABLY
3 : more correctly speaking
4 : to the contrary : INSTEAD
5 : in some degree : SOMEWHAT

If you interpret that to be 'to the contrary' Christ would be contradicting the Holy Spirit who inspired Elizabeth to say in Luke 1:42 that Mary is 'blessed among women'. It's not possible for Christ and the Holy Spirit to be in disagreement.

Christ is not saying here Mary was not blessed to be his physical mother, but with even better reason she is blessed because she heard the word of God and kept it with her fiat -- "Be it done unto me according to thy word" (Luke 1:38)

 

[☦Marius☦]

I still feel there is a strawman in some ideas of Catholicism with Mary (I am not saying that some theology is right, the Immaculate Conception and her Ascension without death are wrong). Nevertheless, someone could say some stuff about Orthodoxy with Mary can seem excessive like St. John of Damascus saying Christ owes to the Blessed Virgin.

In my catechism book:
The Lady Mother of God is the bond linking heaven and earth, she unites man with God, From Christ, the head of the body which is the Church, comes every perfect gift (Jas. 1:17); and through the Mother of God, who is the neck of the body, the divine gift reaches the faithful, the members of the body. "The Mother of Jesus, who directly bears the head which is Christ, is a mediator between the head of the Church and the body, and in a way a link joining the two like a neck... In consequence, just as the head [Christ] is the only way that leads to the Father... so this sacred neck [the Mother of God] is also a way, the only way, that leads everyone to the head of all [Christ].
Theophanes, Theotokos 22-3. pp. 128-32. Cf. John 14:6: No man comes to the Father except through me.

The power of the Mother of God's prayers is invincible. Every sinner calls on the all-merciful Mother of Christ and through her finds salvation: 'I have you as Mediatress with God the lover of mankind... I supplicate you, O Virgin, come unto my aid most quickly.
The Great Supplicatory Canon, Exapostilarion.

In my Protestant times, I would have been worried about how Mary is called "Mediatress with God", "Mediator between the head of the Church and the body" and finding salvation through her.

St John of Damascus was as much Catholic as he was Orthodox

 

[Not David]

St John of Damascus was as much Catholic as he was Orthodox

Sorry Marius, I don't follow.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Generally the Saints that lived and reposed before the Great Schism are held in common with Orthodoxy and Catholicism. There was no official division (that I'm aware of) between us relating to him.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Generally the Saints that lived and reposed before the Great Schism are held in common with Orthodoxy and Catholicism. There was no official division (that I'm aware of) between us relating to him.

This, St. John was Pre-Schism therefore a saint of both Churches.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Yeah - I'm not sold on Her being the only way that leads us to Christ. She is the only why that He came into the world, but many were led to Christ through preaching of the Apostles - most I'd venture to say. Look a the day of Pentecost.

Who said she was the only one to lead us to Christ?

God the Father draws us to Christ.

Actually scripture claims that the Holy Spirit draws us to Christ, now who in the scripture is described as being "filled with the Holy Spirit"?

The Theotokos. The reason she is so effective an agent for our salvation, is because she is completely filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore any interaction with her is going to lead one to God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

St John of Damascus was as much Catholic as he was Orthodox

no he wasn't. Rome was just Orthodox back then.

 

[☦Marius☦]

no he wasn't. Rome was just Orthodox back then.

Are we not Catholic? One holy Catholic and apostolic Church? Since Rome was part of the fold at that time after all.

 

[Not David]

Who said she was the only one to lead us to Christ?



Actually scripture claims that the Holy Spirit draws us to Christ, now who in the scripture is described as being "filled with the Holy Spirit"?

The Theotokos. The reason she is so effective an agent for our salvation, is because she is completely filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore any interaction with her is going to lead one to God.

My catechism book.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Are we not Catholic? One holy Catholic and apostolic Church? Since Rome was part of the fold at that time after all.

if you mean us, then yes. usually when folks say Catholic they mean Rome today, as if the modern Roman church can claim him.

 

[☦Marius☦]

My catechism book.

Ok I see what you are referring to:
In my catechism book:

The Lady Mother of God is the bond linking heaven and earth, she unites man with God, From Christ, the head of the body which is the Church, comes every perfect gift (Jas. 1:17); and through the Mother of God, who is the neck of the body, the divine gift reaches the faithful, the members of the body. "The Mother of Jesus, who directly bears the head which is Christ, is a mediator between the head of the Church and the body, and in a way a link joining the two like a neck... In consequence, just as the head [Christ] is the only way that leads to the Father... so this sacred neck [the Mother of God] is also a way, the only way, that leads everyone to the head of all [Christ].
Theophanes, Theotokos 22-3. pp. 128-32. Cf. John 14:6: No man comes to the Father except through me.

Yes I would say this is a theological exaggeration of the Theotokos being the ladder between God and Man. Jacob's ladder vision in Genesis is in fact a vision of the Theotokos. She was the ladder by which the divine came down to man, and through her man is saved by her constant prayers and intercession, as well as being led by her as she is the champion leader of the Church. Her flesh is the flesh that Christ took from and sanctified with his Godhood, and therefore it is her flesh that is the representation of all mankind's flesh as Christ only had one parent. That means 100% of Christ's human flesh originated from Mary.

The Theotokos mediates through her flesh being united to Christs, and therefore Christ being united to us through her.

The writing isn't inaccurate in saying that the Theotokos is the only way to Christ, as her flesh is all that ties Christ to us, hence the entire point of the incarnation. The wording of it is a bit confusion however

 

[☦Marius☦]

if you mean us, then yes. usually when folks say Catholic they mean Rome today, as if the modern Roman church can claim him.

They seem to at least hold to his writings at the 7th council. I don't think we should call them impious for holding the Saintly man in high regard.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Who said she was the only one to lead us to Christ?



Actually scripture claims that the Holy Spirit draws us to Christ, now who in the scripture is described as being "filled with the Holy Spirit"?

The Theotokos. The reason she is so effective an agent for our salvation, is because she is completely filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore any interaction with her is going to lead one to God.

This actually supports what I said in post #12.

"Some believe that the Holy Spirit is just a 'placeholder' for Mary's eventual investiture as the third personage of the trinity, which would allow worship of her as part of the Godhead. Any truth to that?"