Is Mary the Queen of Heaven?

All4Christ

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This actually supports what I said in post #12.

"Some believe that the Holy Spirit is just a 'placeholder' for Mary's eventual investiture as the third personage of the trinity, which would allow worship of her as part of the Godhead. Any truth to that?"
Anyone who believes that doesn’t believe what the Orthodox Church teaches. Mary is not and never will be the third person of the Trinity; she will not be given the role of the Holy Spirit in the Trinity and will never be given the worship due to God alone.
 
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Markie Boy

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This actually supports what I said in post #12.

"Some believe that the Holy Spirit is just a 'placeholder' for Mary's eventual investiture as the third personage of the trinity, which would allow worship of her as part of the Godhead. Any truth to that?"

No truth to that that I have seen. Not that you couldn't find some fringe, fanatics that my propose it, but it's not fair to judge any group by it's most extreme fringes.
 
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Markie Boy

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Who said she was the only one to lead us to Christ?



Actually scripture claims that the Holy Spirit draws us to Christ, now who in the scripture is described as being "filled with the Holy Spirit"?

The Theotokos. The reason she is so effective an agent for our salvation, is because she is completely filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore any interaction with her is going to lead one to God.

That was straight up good!! Thanks!
 
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ArmyMatt

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They seem to at least hold to his writings at the 7th council. I don't think we should call them impious for holding the Saintly man in high regard.

yeah, but there is more to him than the 7th Council. they reject a lot of his theology. so he isn't theirs because Rome rejects his theology and is no longer in the Body he was in. and I didn't say they were impious for that.
 
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Knee V

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No truth to that that I have seen. Not that you couldn't find some fringe, fanatics that my propose it, but it's not fair to judge any group by it's most extreme fringes.

I've never even encountered that in the fringes.
 
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All4Christ

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I've never even encountered that in the fringes.
The most I’ve seen is in some of the Sophiology teachings - where they talk about a “hypostatic union” between the Theotokos and the Holy Spirit. This teaching was condemned as heresy and is not permitted as an Orthodox teaching.

As the temple that the Holy Spirit came to inhabit at the Annunciation, She [Mother of God]is the Spirit-Bearer, the transparent human image of the revelation of the Holy Spirit, who, according to His hypostatic property, does not became incarnate but makes incarnate and glorifies. Alone of God's creatures found worthy of being inhabited by the Holy Spirit, She is the human hypostatic image of the Holy Spirit. One can say that, in this sense, She is the Holy Spirit not incarnate but manifested in a human hypostasis. There is no, and can be no, greater and fuller manifistation of the Holy Spirit. Thus, after the ascension of Christ and assumption of the Mother of God, there exists in the heavens, with the "Heavenly Man" (1Cor.15:47-49), a human image of the Holy Spirit, not according to incarnation, which cannot be, but according to a perfect spiritual conformity with Him.

Sergius Bulgakov
The Bride of the Lamb
Section III. Eschatology

For all readers - I can’t emphasize this enough - this teaching is NOT the teaching of the Orthodox Church.

As St John Maximovitch said:

In the words [of Fr. Sergius Bulgakov], when the Holy Spirit came to dwell in the Virgin Mary, she acquired "a dyadic life, human and divine; that is, She was completely deified, because in Her hypostatic being was manifest the living, creative revelation of the Holy Spirit" (Archpriest Sergei Bulgakov, The Unburnt Bush, 1927, p. 154). "She is a perfect manifestation of the Third Hypostasis" (Ibid., p. 175), "a creature, but also no longer a creature" (P. 19 1)....But we can say with the words of St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: "There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper" (Panarion, "Against the Collyridians"). This Holy Father accuses those who give Her an almost divine worship: "Let Mary be in honor, but let worship be given to the Lord" (same source). "Although Mary is a chosen vessel, still she was a woman by nature, not to be distinguished at all from others. Although the history of Mary and Tradition relate that it was said to Her father Joachim in the desert, 'Thy wife hath conceived,' still this was done not without marital union and not without the seed of man" (same source). "One should not revere the saints above what is proper, but should revere their Master. Mary is not God, and did not receive a body from heaven, but from the joining of man and woman; and according to the promise, like Isaac, She was prepared to take part in the Divine Economy. But, on the other hand, let none dare foolishly to offend the Holy Virgin" (St. Epiphanius, "Against the Antidikomarionites"). The Orthodox Church, highly exalting the Mother of God in its hymns of praise, does not dare to ascribe to Her that which has not been communicated about Her by Sacred Scripture or Tradition. "Truth is foreign to all overstatements as well as to all understatements. It gives to everything a fitting measure and fitting place" (Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov)."[6]
 
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☦Marius☦

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This actually supports what I said in post #12.

"Some believe that the Holy Spirit is just a 'placeholder' for Mary's eventual investiture as the third personage of the trinity, which would allow worship of her as part of the Godhead. Any truth to that?"

How does being filled with the HS equate replacing it? You seem desperate to push that narrative.
 
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☦Marius☦

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It just seems to be a natural progression.

Why does their have to be a progression at all? We've already drawn the lines in the sand and well defined our theology. It's been consistent for 2000 years so it's not going to just morph into something else. At least not in Orthodoxy.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Why does their have to be a progression at all? We've already drawn the lines in the sand and well defined our theology. It's been consistent for 2000 years so it's not going to just morph into something else. At least not in Orthodoxy.

When was the Assumption?
 
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Not David

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The most I’ve seen is in some of the Sophiology teachings - where they talk about a “hypostatic union” between the Theotokos and the Holy Spirit. This teaching was condemned as heresy and is not permitted as an Orthodox teaching.



For all readers - I can’t emphasize this enough - this teaching is NOT the teaching of the Orthodox Church.

As St John Maximovitch said:
Was Sergius Bulgakov condemned? If that is the case, then it would be like using Arius theology to say Christianity believes Jesus was created.
 
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prodromos

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Orthodox don't believe in the assumption.
We do, just not that she was still alive when bodily assumed. The Church has the bodily remains of all the Apostles but not of Mary.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Was Sergius Bulgakov condemned? If that is the case, then it would be like using Arius theology to say Christianity believes Jesus was created.

Bulgakov wasn't but his theology was.
 
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☦Marius☦

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We do, just not that she was still alive when bodily assumed. The Church has the bodily remains of all the Apostles but not of Mary.

Yes but the title of the narrative different for a good reason. Sure you could call Christ coming for the Theotokos' body an "assumption", but the story surrounding it has entirely different circumstances and I thi k calling it the "falling asleep" is much more appropriate. The assumption is a distinctly Roman Catholic narrative.
 
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All4Christ

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Was Sergius Bulgakov condemned? If that is the case, then it would be like using Arius theology to say Christianity believes Jesus was created.
His teachings on this subject were condemned. The teachings were anathemized by both Moscow and ROCOR in two separate councils. I don’t think he was excommunicated though.

I agree that it isn’t Orthodox theology. I could see how it would be confusing though to those who aren’t aware of the background.
 
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All4Christ

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Bulgakov wasn't but his theology was.
...Which is one reason it can be confusing to people. He has many writings - some of which are good, but we can’t accept all of what he says as theologically correct or accepted by Orthodoxy.
 
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ArmyMatt

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...Which is one reason it can be confusing to people. He has many writings - some of which are good, but we can’t accept all of what he says as theologically correct or accepted by Orthodoxy.

correct, that is why we pray and read the saints first, so that we can discern someone like Fr Bulgakov.
 
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