IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

[Archippus]

Both kingdoms becoming one maybe...?

God Bless!

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

A new heaven and a new earth
21 Then I saw ‘a new heaven and a new earth,’a]'>[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Look! God’s dwelling-place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death”b]'>[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away Rev20:11-55&21:1-4

Jesus said he would raise up those who believed in him on the last day(of this present earth/the end of the age) John6:40. The dead will be judged. Then the old earth and heaven will pass away and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. The new heaven(the new Jerusalem) will come down from heaven to this present earth, which will then be a new earth, and God will dwell with his people in his Kingdom, in the new Heaven. That's how I see it anyway

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The letter kills because it is speaking of the Old Law. If you disobeyed the Moral Law in the OT, you could be killed by your own people (God’s people). This is not the case in the New Covenant.

The letter does indeed still kill in the NEW COVENANT it always has in OLD AND NEW.

ROMANS 6:23 [23] FOR THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jason, still waiting for you to respond to my posts but it is ok if you do not wish to. Maybe you can pray about them at home if you cannot address them here.

It may be a pointless excercise anyway unless your open to the fact you may have some things wrong. Ignoring God's WORD does not make it dissappear. Sent only as a help brother.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word

 

[Archippus]

Anyways, I gotta go.

Peace and blessings to you in the Lord (even if we may disagree strongly).

That is kind of you Jason. Enjoyed the chat.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This sounds kind of like the story of the young rich ruler (except he kept the Moral Law). Jesus told him that if he were to enter into life, keep the commandments (See Matthew 19:17). Jesus told him about the Moral Law (See Matthew 19:18-19). The young rich ruler did not say he did not keep the Moral Law. He said all these things (Commands) he had kept since his youth and then asked Jesus what thing he lacked (See Matthew 19:20). Jesus’s reply should shock you or make you freeze like a deer caught in a daze by the headlights of an oncoming car. For Jesus said,

“If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.” (Matthew 19:21).

The Bible continues to say:

“But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, “Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 19:22-23).
‭‭
Jesus did not say, “Don’t go.” “All you have to do is believe and don’t worry about selling your possessions.” He had his answer but was sorrowful because it was something he loved more then God.

Actually Jesus was teaching that the rich young ruler was not obeying the 10 commandments. When Jesus said go sell all that you have and give it away to the poor, Jesus was showing him that he loved his riches more then God breaking the 1st, 2nd and 10th Commandment. When Jesus said this the young man went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions (Matthew 19:22).

Jesus concludes the conversation by saying; Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God (Matthew 19:16-24).

 

[expos4ever]

In your point2) Paul relentlessly stated you cannot be justified by observing the law. I doubt he would go into such detail about it unless he was concerned that is what many of his readers tried to do. The Galatian church concerns this issue.

I don't think you understood me. I am saying that Paul was not even addressing the notion that one might be justified by observing the law. I think this is fairly clear from context as well as the historical argument - advanced first by EP Sanders I believe - that the Jew of the first century simply did not think in terms of the law as something you need to obey to be justified.

I believe I said that Paul was criticizing the belief - among Jews of course - that justification was limited to Jews.

Thus, my take on what Paul is saying is this:

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law {***that is, of course, Jews}, so that every mouth {***i.e. both Jews who are under the Law as well as Gentiles who, of course, are not} may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight {***in other words you Jews take note: even though you alone can do the works of the Law since only you are under its jurisdiction, don't think that possession of Law limits justification to you}; for [j]through the Law comes the knowledge of sin {i.e. the law is not a guarantee of justification to you Jew, it is instead the means by which you gain knowledge of sin}.

I would have thought it was painfully clear from this - written almost immediately afterward - that Paul's issue with the Law is that the Jews thought it limited justification to them alone since the Jew saw the law as a kind of ethnic charter, marking them out as God's people to the exclusion of the Gentile, and not as a set of rules that needed to be followed to be justified:

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one

Clearly, Paul's focus here is on the notion that the Law - as something only Jews were given - gives the Jew a "ticket to heaven".

 

[Archippus]

I don't think you understood me. I am saying that Paul was not even addressing the notion that one might be justified by observing the law. I think this is fairly clear from context as well as the historical argument - advanced first by EP Sanders I believe - that the Jew of the first century simply did not think in terms of the law as something you need to obey to be justified.

I believe I said that Paul was criticizing the belief - among Jews of course - that justification was limited to Jews.

Thus, my take on what Paul is saying is this:

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law {***that is, of course, Jews}, so that every mouth {***i.e. both Jews who are under the Law as well as Gentiles who, of course, are not} may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight {***in other words you Jews take note: even though you alone can do the works of the Law since only you are under its jurisdiction, don't think that possession of Law limits justification to you}; for [j]through the Law comes the knowledge of sin {i.e. the law is not a guarantee of justification to you Jew, it is instead the means by which you gain knowledge of sin}.

I would have thought it was painfully clear from this - written almost immediately afterward - that Paul's issue with the Law is that the Jews thought it limited justification to them alone since the Jew saw the law as a kind of ethnic charter, marking them out as God's people to the exclusion of the Gentile, and not as a set of rules that needed to be followed to be justified:

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one

Clearly, Paul's focus here is on the notion that the Law - as something only Jews were given - gives the Jew a "ticket to heaven".

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness/justification, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works Rom9:30-32


To be under the law, is to be under righteousness of observing the law. The Jews attacked Paul for his message. And a main thrust of his message was, you are not righteous by obeying the law

 

[Neogaia777]

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness/justification, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works Rom9:30-32


To be under the law, is to be under righteousness of observing the law. The Jews attacked Paul for his message. And a main thrust of his message was, you are not righteous by obeying the law

Two different ways, one a better and higher way... (Romans 9:30-32)...

But the Jews (today I think "law" types, for lack of a better word, and then) after being brought to burning jealousy finally realizing that they have become a branch that was broken off, and the Gentiles grafted in their place, will catch up to them by their same way and then they can then be grafted in again... (Romans 11:23, Romans 11:1-24 (or more))...

Some might even make pretty good leaders and teachers after that, if after being grafted in again, they are given lots of new insights into what they know of the OT, when they embrace the New, if they do not remain in their lack of faith... (Romans 11:23)...

God Bless!

 

[Archippus]

Two different ways, one a better and higher way... (Romans 9:30-32)...

But the Jews (today I think "law" types, for lack of a better word, and then) after being brought to burning jealousy finally realizing that they have become a branch that was broken off, and the Gentiles grafted in their place, will catch up to them by their same way and then they can then be grafted in again... (Romans 11:23, Romans 11:1-24 (or more))...

God Bless!

Absolutely. For there are many OT scriptures that speak of future blessings for them.

 

[Neogaia777]

Absolutely. For there are many OT scriptures that speak of future blessings for them.

Edited/added to my post...

 

[Archippus]

Have you never heard of Matthew 25:30 that says,

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).​

Why is he called a servant if he is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth?

I sincerely wish you could get past just reading the partial letter and leaving it at that.

What kind of unprofitable servant will be thrown into the darkness? One who does not care a less to do his masters bidding? Or, one who allows themselves to be distracted at times from what God wants them to do and is grieved by their faliures?

Just as, there is a huge difference between a person hating their imperfections(which we all have) and someone else choosing to live a wilfull sinfull lifestyle and not caring about it? It could even be said that arguing on this kind of website is not what God wants people to do, the list is endless.


If we disown him he must disown us

If we are faithless he remains faithful for he cannot disown himself

2Tim2:13


You see, you must read the bible as a cohesive whole!



Take the parable of the sower. In the second example people made a shallow commitment. They walked away from the faith when persecution came. However, in the third example people kept getting sidetracked in their walk by worldly things. Jesus said they did not mature in the faith, they did not walk away. For you only mature by practicing doing right from wrong.



Jesus said if your brother sins against you forgive him 70x7, do you think God would forgive less than he asks you to do?



The love God has for his children is not shallow. Only an unloving God would threaten you with hell everytime you failed to faultlessly obey his laws, unless of course, you tell others that is what he will do. (Matt7:2)



In my view, those who are grieved by and acutely aware of their faliures, are in a far more secure position with God, than are those who believe they can attain heaven due to living good enough lives. For the former shows the law is in their heart and doing its job, that is why they are so grieved at, and acutely aware of their faliures



For the proud shall be humbled

And the humble will be exalted


It is not wise to only take note of part of the bible, nor is it wise just to read parts of the letter and neglect the great love, mercy and compassion of God in the process

 

[LoveGodsWord]

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43).​

It says, they (the angels) shall gather out of His Kingdom (Christ's Kingdom) all things (anyone or anything) that offends and or them (people) which do iniquity (sin). It says they will be cast then into the furnace of fire (Which is the Lake of Fire).

This is at the second coming Jason. There is no people sinning in Heaven. You are leaving out CONTEXT again in relation to a parable.

MATTHEW 13:36-43
[36], Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came to him, saying, Declare to us the parable of the tares of the field.
[37], He answered and said to them, He that sows the good seed is the Son of man;
[38], The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
[39], The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
[40], As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[41], The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42], And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[43], Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Hope this helps

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are judged at the last day/the end of the age. Then you dwell in the kingdom of heaven with God and Christ. There will be no wickedness or sin in heaven. So you cannot be thrown out because of it. Your wooden literalism of refusing to take the whole passage into account, just cherry picking leaves you failing to understand basic truth

But you are not offering what it means for them to be in the Kingdom and then for them to be gathered out by angels to be cast into the furnace of fire. If there is a metaphor expressing some other meaning, where is it?

Generally the rule of thumb in reading is that you take it literally unless there is a clear indicator that it is a metaphor based on the context or or other parts that say otherwise.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

First off it says "Son of man", and doesn't say which "kingdom" or world belonging to the Son of man he is talking about, we just don't know for sure if it's heaven or earth... But, let's say it is heaven, on Judgment Day or a Judgement Day, is when this clearing of that kingdom would happen, it happened in Jesus Day, it happened in Noah's Day, it will happen in a very similar way in our day...

And if you take the passages you quote in context you can see that it is talking about a Judgement, and/or the, Judgement Day, and that is when there would be a clearing out and casting down and out, out of that kingdom the wicked in that place, to no longer have access, or exist there...

God Bless!

It is obvious that it is talking about Judgment Day and those who were in the Kingdom of Christ (because they accepted Christ and done His work) are being cast out because they also offend (sin) worked iniquity (intense sin). Surely you just do not want to see that because it does not line up with your view of Soteriology. For we see a repeated theme of this. At the sheep and the goats judgment in Matthew 25:31-46, the sheeps and goats are separated. Those who did not help the poor (the goats) were cast into everlasting fire. In Matthew 7, we see Jesus tell those who claimed to do wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin) (See Matthew 7:23 and then read Matthew 7:26-27).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is at the second coming Jason. There is no people sinning in Heaven. You are leaving out CONTEXT again in relation to a parable.

MATTHEW 13:36-43
[36], Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came to him, saying, Declare to us the parable of the tares of the field.
[37], He answered and said to them, He that sows the good seed is the Son of man;
[38], The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
[39], The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
[40], As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[41], The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42], And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[43], Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Hope this helps

No. This is at the final Judgment on the New Earth.
They will be burned in the Lake of Fire after the final Judgment.
The end of the world does not officially take place until after the Millennium when this world will pass away and there will be a New Heavens and New Earth. The Judgment will take place on the New Earth.

"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13:28).​

Meaning, there is going to be a people who thought they were true believers in the Lord but they will be thrust out of God's Kingdom while they see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom. God's Kingdom in the end will be the New Earth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The trouble here is Jason, you refuse to discuss mosty of what I write, then bring forth partial scriptures:

The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40 ‘As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

You only enter the kingdom of heaven at the last day. And there is no wickedness/sin in heaven. You have already been judged and given eternal life in God's kingdom.

No. The Bible says the children of the kingdom will be cast into outer darkness (See Matthew 8:12). The unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness will there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you believe their can be wickedness in the kingdom of Heaven?

Not in Heaven itself but in the Kingdom of those believers here upon this Earth. Believers also make up God's Kingdom. They will not all remain in His Kingdom because of their iniquity or sin. At the Judgment, they will be gathered out by Christ's angels and thrown into the furnace of fire. But you have to do theological back flips to try and make it say that they were not in the Kingdom when it says that they were in the Kingdom.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The letter does indeed still kill in the NEW COVENANT it always has in OLD AND NEW.

But the context is talking about the Old Covenant because you could physically die by the hands of your own people (i.e. God's people). Jesus now teaches something different. He said he that is among you without sin, cast the first stone. So this is a new teaching. We are not to pick up stones anymore for those in the tribe of believers who may commit adultery. Paul instead told the Corinthians to kick that person out who committed sexual immorality. He did not say to pick up stones and kill this person.

ROMANS 6:23 [23] FOR THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Spiritual death and not physical death. A person abides in spiritual death if they commit grievous sin.

Jason, still waiting for you to respond to my posts but it is ok if you do not wish to. Maybe you can pray about them at home if you cannot address them here.

You have made many posts to me and many of them are insanely long. It would take a better part of the year to reply to them and I said I would not argue with you over the Sabbath issue.

It may be a pointless excercise anyway unless your open to the fact you may have some things wrong. Ignoring God's WORD does not make it dissappear. Sent only as a help brother.

I can say the same to you, but truth is proven by what God's Word says.

Oh, and yes.

May God bless you, too.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Actually Jesus was teaching that the rich young ruler was not obeying the 10 commandments. When Jesus said go sell all that you have and give it away to the poor, Jesus was showing him that he loved his riches more then God breaking the 1st, 2nd and 10th Commandment. When Jesus said this the young man went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions (Matthew 19:22).

Jesus concludes the conversation by saying; Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God (Matthew 19:16-24).

You know, I actually agree with you for once. Before the cross, the 10 commandments still applied; And you are right. I did not catch that. The young rich ruler did not keep the commandments just as you pointed out. But I believe Jesus in what He says in regards to Matthew 19:17. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. This is one of the many reasons from Scripture why I believe that keeping God's commands is a part of the salvation equation.

 

[Neogaia777]

It is obvious that it is talking about Judgment Day and those who were in the Kingdom of Christ (because they accepted Christ and done His work) are being cast out because they also offend (sin) worked iniquity (intense sin). Surely you just do not want to see that because it does not line up with your view of Soteriology. For we see a repeated theme of this. At the sheep and the goats judgment in Matthew 25:31-46, the sheeps and goats are separated. Those who did not help the poor (the goats) were cast into everlasting fire. In Matthew 7, we see Jesus tell those who claimed to do wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin) (See Matthew 7:23 and then read Matthew 7:26-27).

Is "Kingdom of Christ", the heavenly one, or the earthly one, (or both?)...? Or what...?

God Bless!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No. This is at the final Judgment on the New Earth.
They will be burned in the Lake of Fire after the final Judgment.
The end of the world does not officially take place until after the Millennium when this world will pass away and there will be a New Heavens and New Earth. The Judgment will take place on the New Earth.

"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13:28).​

Meaning, there is going to be a people who thought they were true believers in the Lord but they will be thrust out of God's Kingdom while they see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom. God's Kingdom in the end will be the New Earth.

Goodness brother you have just ignored God's WORD showing the context you have left out of the parable. What are you saying no to? Where does the scripture say "NEW EARTH"? It says "END OF THE WORLD" v39. I suggest you read the scriptures you are saying no to and left out showing context.