Is it ever ok to kill our enemies in the name of Jesus?

[Kutte]

While I don't disagree with you in theory the practice of what you're saying is a bit hypocritical. If you want to take the hardline on pacifism based on the teachings of the Lord then why do you own a computer? Shouldn't you sell it along with the rest of your belongings to wander the Earth spreading the Word? Matthew 19:21

Hi Kevin,

The computer is a valuable tool for spreading the 'word'.

God bless

 

[JackRT]

As Christians, we have an obligation to use as much force as necessary to protect ourselves and our families. That may mean we must kill in times of invasion.

Agreed but who is doing the invading?

A description of the fall of the City of La Palma on the Island of Majorca in AD 1229 taken from a letter from a crusader to his wife and family: "Once inside, Christ’s soldiers unleashed a divine retribution on the city’s inhabitants. Most of the Muslims, men, women, and children, were killed within two hours of the breach of the walls. It was a scene of such savage butchery that, but for its divine inspiration, some might well mistake its noble purpose for the devil’s work."

 

[PastorFreud]

Had you actually read the list, not just the few I quoted, you would have seen some 'proper' references.

It's up to you to provide a reference if you want to be credible.

Logical fallacy "Tu Quoque, " therefore irrelevant

You know just enough about logical fallacies to be dangerous.

Irrelevant counter example. Jim Jones did not have hordes of armed radicals attacking people outside his group forcing his beliefs on them and killing those who refused.

Another irrelevant counter example. There are many Christians who openly oppose the actions of those who use deadly violence against abortion clinics. How many 100s of these abortion clinic attackers did you say there were? There are approximately 1.7 billion Muslims in the world. Of those between .13 and .23% are radical that is approximately 221,ooo,ooo

Approx. 221 million Muslims do consider the list a mandate from Allah.

I disagree with your source. Do you have any objective proof of these numbers?

I'm not sure anybody thinks that the military actions against radical Islam is intended to bring about reformation but to put a stop to the slaughter and oppression of innocents.

Military actions taken by nations are indeed trying to put a stop to slaughter. Theological actions taken by reformers are trying to empower the 1.7 billion (minus the radicals) to stand up for themselves and confront their fringe. My examples above were a parallel to your example -- all having to do with the need to confront our fringe factions. During the inquisition, radical Christianity was guilty of some of the same crimes as radical Islam.

A very malicious accusation. Nothing I have said could by the remotest imagination imply that.

That is a decision every person must make for themselves. But I can assure the world this old man will not be assaulted or attacked without a fight and I have no qualms about continuing the opposition until the threat is eliminated, by any means necessary..

I was not accusing you of any position. I was asking you to clarify your position. At what point do you use lethal force? How do you determine that force? If you are a military combatant, these answers may differ. If you are talking about defending your home, would the criteria be the same? I don't understand where you draw the line and why. I draw the line at lethal force. You don't. But you seem to have some idea of when force is required and when it is not. Or are you winging it? No accusation. Just trying to understand.

Hope that works out for you but it does not seem to be working to well for the moderate Muslims, Christians etc. in Syria, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt etc. and they speak the same language and supposedly worship the same god.

I too have a very up to date security system but security systems can be hacked, bypassed etc. I too believe that God can provide non-violent ways to address these problems but for me it must happen out there somewhere not standing on my front doorstep with a gun.

So you being on your front doorstep is what confuses me. This sounds like a preemptive position where you are willing to shoot first and ask questions later. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you. I do hope you'll clarify where you draw the line and why. Maybe it will make me reconsider. And I still see resorting to your own use of lethal force to be a sign of not having faith in God for alternate solutions.

 

[Theo Book]

As Christians is it ok to kill our enemies ? Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, what if we are called to war or someone is trying to hurt our families?

Personal enemies because of religion> No!

(John 16:2-3) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Enemies of the state?

Jesus told the soldiers "Be content with your wages."

Nothing about "Get out of the military" or "don't kill.

Rather, "Fear God, honor the King."

 

[DeepWater]

How is this taken out of context; please explain.

Have you ever actually read a New Testament, or is your capacity to talk about spiritual thing limited to bumper sticker type Jesus Quotes?

The Apostle Paul?
If you study him and his doctrine, you have found what God wants you to know regarding a lot of things you are not familiar with.
For example, Paul says to live peaceably with all men (people) >as much as you can<.
Your NT tells us that we are no better infidels (unbelievers) if we dont "provide for our family".
Provide = protect, as well as feed.

 

[DeepWater]

So, turning the other cheek is not about turning the other cheek at all, it is about keeping immigrant out of the country?

Steve,

If you didnt comprehend the context or underlying meaning of what i was explaining the first time, you certainly are not going to grasp it the 2nd time around.
But i do thank you for sounding just like an MSNBC Parrot.

 

[Der Alte]

It's up to you to provide a reference if you want to be credible.

Link:
SHARIA LAW — LIST OF KEY RULES — What Is Sharia Law?

You know just enough about logical fallacies to be dangerous.

I know one when I see one. When one continues to to use past actions by Christians et ali. to excuse current actions by radicals that is a logical fallacy.

I disagree with your source. Do you have any objective proof of these numbers?

Link:
Unusual Answer from Panelist Receives Standing Ovation at Benghazi Coalition Meeting

Military actions taken by nations are indeed trying to put a stop to slaughter. Theological actions taken by reformers are trying to empower the 1.7 billion (minus the radicals) to stand up for themselves and confront their fringe. My examples above were a parallel to your example -- all having to do with the need to confront our fringe factions.

During the inquisition, radical Christianity was guilty of some of the same crimes as radical Islam.

Logical fallacy, "Tu Quoque."

I was not accusing you of any position. I was asking you to clarify your position.

At what point do you use lethal force? How do you determine that force? If you are a military combatant, these answers may differ. If you are talking about defending your home, would the criteria be the same? I don't understand where you draw the line and why. I draw the line at lethal force. You don't. But you seem to have some idea of when force is required and when it is not. Or are you winging it?

No accusation. Just trying to understand.

This is you not accusing me of something. "You seem to think it's ok to take a Muslim's life if said Muslim holds jihadist ideals?" Simply tacking a question mark at the end of an accusation does not make it a question.

So you being on your front doorstep is what confuses me. This sounds like a preemptive position where you are willing to shoot first and ask questions later. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you.

Guess you missed the part "with a gun."

Guess I do hope you'll clarify where you draw the line and why. Maybe it will make me reconsider. And I still see resorting to your own use of lethal force to be a sign of not having faith in God for alternate solutions.

I think I adequately stated my position in the previous post. In 1946 a German pastor Martin Niemoeller, who had survived 7 years in Nazi prison camps, gave a lecture which has since became famous, it begins "When they came for the Social Democrat I did not speak out because I was not a Social Democrat." I'm not going to wait until there is no one to speak for me.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Another out-of-context proof text. What does the Bible actually say about punishing disobedient children?

The law of Moses says Deuteronomy 21:18, Deuteronomy 21:21

 

[John Hyperspace]

Nope.
That would be anti-gospel.
Can you produce a verse that says to give your children up to the fire, or to turn up the TV louder in order not to hear the screams of your daughters and your wife as they are being raped?

Can you find a verse that advises you that is someone sues you for your shirt, you should offer him also your neices virginity?

 

[John Hyperspace]

According to the dictionary:

Now, you claim that you hold this belief.
Yet, Jesus always majors on attitudes, more than physical actions.

How is it you can claim to be a literal follower of Christ, and claim to be a pacifist, and yet think it's okay to fight with words, and enjoy verbal violence?

Easy, I say you are equivocating the word "pacifist"; it has nothing to do with "verbal violence" - the word describes a person who believes physical warfare and physicial violence are never justified. A person trying to equivocate it with the concept of "violence of words" is being intellectually dishonest and has an obvious biased agenda.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I said the context to YOU was under the dove .. and it was said that a dove fights .. so .I said as Christ did defend his home he did defend those being robbed he did INDEED use FORCE and he took it to the level needed to defend his home

THAT is the same as we can do .. defend our homes to the necessary level needed to stop it .. this shows the scriptures you quoted are not intended to be used in the way you say it ..

what happened to turning the other cheek? Jesus did not there....what happens to repay not an evil man? .. did not christ do this ? resist not evil men ..did not christ do that ?.. see you have the scriptures taken in the wrong context .. or else Christ would not have done what he did .This and Ananias incident says you are incorrect in your assumptions

SO i am the type to say ACTIONS speak louder than words .. Christ actions dealing with robbers evil men in his fathers earthly house proves you have those scriptures out of context .

So answer what I said .. not cop out with "you seriously cannot compare what he did in the temple " because I already proved he is not your definition of harmless as a dove. nor is the definitions of turn the other cheek resist not an evil man OR not to repay evil ..

I also showed that others were put to death for holding back money and lying Husband and Wife .. I can put together many many more examples but you don't care about actions that show what the words actually mean

he gave us commonsense to use .. IF you do not fight for your family or children friends being killed and can listen to their screams and begging for you or anyone to help
If you do not fight to your death for them and lay down your life if needed to save them THEN that is not GOD you are listening too hear God and his words as the Good Shepard ..why call him that ? to defend from wolves .. or so he could watch the wolves kill his sheep?

I suppose you will poo poo away the defensive qualities of a Shepard and say its symbolism .. YET harmless as a dove is symbolism as well ..

I'm saying if you wish to take teachings "harmless as doves" "do not resist evil" "render evil to evil to no man" "take up your cross" etc, as "it's okay to kill others" then that's all you.

 

[John Hyperspace]

We are not enforcers of the law, personally.
It is the government that enforces law.

Oh so you don't advocate we follow the law of Moses. I guess so much for your argument concerning the need to follow the law of Moses?

 

[D2wing]

Jesus healed the servant of a Roman officer, and gave rules for soldiers. This would indicate that people were not forbidden to be soldiers or law enforcement. I served in combat and do not see a problem with it. However I have friends that were CO's. I think either decision is valid. As far as personal protection I think you should decide for yourself prayerfully. Do you have anything worth killing for?

 

[John Hyperspace]

The commandment of "An eye for and eye, and a tooth for a tooth" was something said by "them of old time"--the rabbis of the 400 years of silence, whose teachings the Pharisees studied and applied more than the actual Torah. and THIS is what Jesus was correcting in the Sermon on the Mount. He was not doing away with Exodus 21:24.

Remember, Jesus preceded his teachings there with "I have not come to destroy the law!"

Yes, God told Moses those words, but the rabbis and the Pharisees twisted them to mean something different.

What God was giving Moses, was guidelines for the government, when enforcing punishment. No punishment could go higher than the level of wrong done.
However, the punishment could be avoided altogether, if the party wronged chose to forgive it completely.

The Pharisees were applying this as "I can make you suffer every inch as much as you made me suffer!"
When that is exactly the attitude God warned against, in Leviticus 19:18.

You claim to be such a pacifist, in outward letter-of-the-law physical violence.
But your heart... how full of strife and war is it?

Isn't this hypocrisy?

At this point all I can say is that you can teach that killing is good all you want. I'll have no part of it.

 

[PastorFreud]

Link:
SHARIA LAW — LIST OF KEY RULES — What Is Sharia Law?

I know one when I see one. When one continues to to use past actions by Christians et ali. to excuse current actions by radicals that is a logical fallacy.

Link:
Unusual Answer from Panelist Receives Standing Ovation at Benghazi Coalition Meeting

Logical fallacy, "Tu Quoque."


This is you not accusing me of something. "You seem to think it's ok to take a Muslim's life if said Muslim holds jihadist ideals?" Simply tacking a question mark at the end of an accusation does not make it a question.

Guess you missed the part "with a gun."

I think I adequately stated my position in the previous post. In 1946 a German pastor Martin Niemoeller, who had survived 7 years in Nazi prison camps, gave a lecture which has since became famous, it begins "When they came for the Social Democrat I did not speak out because I was not a Social Democrat." I'm not going to wait until there is no one to speak for me.

I am not making an appeal to hypocrisy, despite your bouncing about screaming "Tu Quoque." I'm trying to show how all religions have gone through a world domination phase.

In context, I said, "You seem...." OR is it "....." and I went on with two other choices. And then asked you to clarify. You really haven't made your criteria clear, so all I have left is guessing. Why won't you say what you criteria are? Why are you afraid to make your meaning plain so we can discuss it?

Billionbibles is not a credible source for this topic. Breitbart doesn't think Saba Ahmed is a credible source: Deception Cloaked in an American Flag - Breitbart
Would you like to argue whether Breitbart is a credible source?

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

As Christians is it ok to kill our enemies ? Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, what if we are called to war or someone is trying to hurt our families?

The Biblical answer is IT DEPENDS. Let me explain...

"There is a time to kill and a time to heal." Wisdom in Ecclesiastes 3:3
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword" Jesus Christ in Matthew 26:52
"and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one" Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36

So we see at one time Jesus said to put away the sword, but at another time, he said to pick it up. So is God's Word divided???? No. Never. He is just repeating what He said earlier... "There is A TIME to kill and A TIME to heal." So it depends on WHAT TIME it is.

In the Old Covenant (under the Law), killing was justified in specified cases. Since the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the only killing that is allowed by God is to stop the immediate murder of innocent, weaker people.

No Christian is EVER allowed to kill another human being simply for their beliefs, their words, for "God's will", or any anything EXCEPT to stop the immediate murder of another innocent, weaker person. God will 100% NEVER tell any Christian to kill for Him because it is Jesus Christ who already died and Jesus Christ alone who casts the wicked into the Lake of Fire.

So generally speaking the answer is "NO", no one led by the Spirit of God will ever again kill for God, for Christ, for Christianity, or for anything except to save innocent human life from immediate murder. From the time of Jesus Christ's death onward, no human WILL EVER again be called by God to kill for Him except in the rare, specific case of saving innocent, weaker humans from their immediate murder. In fact, the opposite is true. We are to give our lives as a sacrifice.

However, there remains Biblical, Legal justification to kill the oppressor if it is absolutely required to stop the imminent murder of another innocent, weaker person. This is what is referred to in Ecclesiastes 3:3 as "A time to kill".

Anyone who believes God/Allah/etc is calling them to kill for Him is 100% deceived by Lucifer. It will NEVER be God, except if it is to stop the immediate murder of the innocent.

PS I have a CCW permit in Indiana, but I only carry to defend people around me, never myself. God protects me. I protect others. And God has saved me from assaulters, gang members, angry drug dealers, angry pimps (I was sharing the Gospel with "their women" LOL), demon-possessed inpatients in psychiatric hospitals, crooked police who lied and beat me, and even a "Marked" man (he had THE LITERAL MARK, claiming about me "He's just jealous because Satan gave me this Mark and he cannot get it"), who full of satanic power, moving bibles telepathically, stopping the wind from blowing, and who held a box knife to my stomach but could not plunge it into me.

I don't need a piece of metal to defend myself. I have the Living Sword of Almighty God, the same Sword that guards the way to the Paradise of God, the same Sword that knocked over Jesus' attackers in John 18:6 and the same Sword has already stopped the Serpent/Dragon, the same Sword that will slay all followers of the Anti-Christ and False Prophet as shown in Revelation 19:21. Better yet, God Himself is "The wall of Fire about [me] and the Glory within [me]" as seen in Zechariah 2:5.

As David said in Psalm 118:6 "The LORD is with me; I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?"

 

[PastorFreud]

For example, Paul says to live peaceably with all men (people) >as much as you can<.
Your NT tells us that we are no better infidels (unbelievers) if we dont "provide for our family".
Provide = protect, as well as feed.

I am not sure if I am in agreement with this or not. It depends on what "as much as you can" means, and I have yet for anyone to give me some clear criteria. What is the line? How do I know if I have exhausted all means and now taking the life of another is the only viable solution? I really would like to know where this line is. But so far everyone's promotion of using killing force does not appear to have any clear criteria. In contrast, Just War Theory has some criteria that we can discuss. WWII seems to fit the criteria for a just war, whereas invading Iraq does not. At least there's some criteria. But for this personal protection theory, I've yet to see any.

 

[PastorFreud]

The Biblical answer is IT DEPENDS. Let me explain...

"There is a time to kill and a time to heal." Wisdom in Ecclesiastes 3:3
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword" Jesus Christ in Matthew 26:52
"and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one" Jesus Christ in Luke 22:36

So we see at one time Jesus said to put away the sword, but at another time, he said to pick it up. So is God's Word divided???? No. Never.

Christ calls us to lay down our lives for, not to save ourselves by killing in self-defense, even though to do so is AT TIMES Biblicaly justified.

No Christian is EVER allowed to kill another human being simply for their beliefs, their words, for "God's will", or any anything EXCEPT to stop the immediate murder of another innocent, weaker person. God will 100% NEVER tell any Christian to kill for Him because it is Jesus Christ who already died and Jesus Christ alone who casts the wicked into the Lake of Fire.

So generally speaking the answer is "NO", no one led by the Spirit of God will ever again kill for God, for Christ, for Christianity, or for anything except to save innocent human life from immediate murder. From the time of Jesus Christ's death onward, no human is EVER called by God to kill for Him except in the rare, specific cases to save innocent, weaker humans from their immediate murder. In fact, the opposite is true. We are to give our lives as a sacrifice.

However, there remains Biblical, Legal justification to kill an oppressor if it is required to stop the imminent murder of an innocent, weaker person. This is what is referred to in Ecclesiastes 3:3 as "A time to kill".

Anyone who believes God is calling them to kill for Him is 100% deceived by Satan. It is not God, except for to stop the immediate murder of the innocent.

Hey Jonathan,
Thanks for that post. It is the first one I've seen in this thread (unless I missed something) that gives some clarity. You say we can use lethal force to prevent the imminent murder of an innocent, weaker person. Can you expand on this? How do we determine the "innocent" and would stopping a potential rape be valid or just potential murder? Even though I am against lethal force as an option for Christians, I think if we had clearly defined criteria like preventing an imminent murder of an innocent, I might see that an exception to the general rule.

 

[PollyJetix]

Oh so you don't advocate we follow the law of Moses. I guess so much for your argument concerning the need to follow the law of Moses?

Nope. You misunderstand me on more than one point.

First of all, even though we are not enforcers of the Law (that is what earthly governments are for) yet we are personally to exemplify the righteousness contained in the moral code.


"God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:3-4

We do not attain righteousness by trying to obey the law (because whoever offends in one point is guilty of all.)
However, once we have attained justification by faith in Christ, then we are empowered to live out the righteousness of the moral code of Moses.

Another point you misunderstand:
I grew up in a very pacifist setting. I was born and raised very Conservative Mennonite. I was trained from the time I was born, to be non-violent. I was trained daily in the Scriptures, from a pacifist point of view.
And your brand of pacifism is nothing but hypocrisy.
To be truly pacifist, you have to learn how to love a lot deeper than just keeping from killing someone. You have to stop fighting using non-physical means.

 

[BukiRob]

What if you are drafted into an army. Do you kill an enemy?

Me personally, I don't want to kill unless I have no choice. If my there were armed men in my house who wanted to rape/kill us... I'd kill them if I could. As the bible says about laying down your life for your brother. Now... if I were drafted into the army... I would refuse to kill since I did not volunteer. I may be court marshelled but I'm ok with that.

Wild difference between thou shalt not commit murder and to kill someone.

To defend your family is justified. If you are drafted in the military and you fail to follow an order during time of war will and SHOULD be court marshaled. If found guilty (at least in the US) the penalty is death.

I find it ironic that people who have NEVER served know what they will do.... So let me get this straight, if you are drafted and you end up on the ground with other soldiers you are going to carelessly and calously put them in extreme danger by your failure to protect?

If you want to talk about laying down your life, then you do your all to ensure that you have your fellow soldiers 6.

The commandment is concerning murder. Killing in war is not what scripture is speaking of.... or do you actually write off the commands of the Father to Israel to take by war the land??