Is it ever ok to kill our enemies in the name of Jesus?

[ldibart]

I'm saying if you wish to take teachings "harmless as doves" "do not resist evil" "render evil to evil to no man" "take up your cross" etc, as "it's okay to kill others" then that's all you.

And I am saying that you are willfully avoiding the entire point all along trying to bubble up on a few scriptures and stating the ridiculous notion that I am saying those scriptures mean you can kill .. I am saying those scriptures intention was not to mean you cannot defend yourself

I PROVE that point with other scriptures and defensive actions by CHRIST ..

CHRIST himself went against the way you use those scriptures he did resist evil men ..

he did he did defend from those robbers, protecting those forced into buying

He did use the amount of force and violence necessary to remove them
Ananias and his wife were put to death by the Lord for lying holding back part of the money

so if you are correct then explain Jesus himself going against them? see it is not ME saying it it is Christ actions TELLING IT ..

explain why if you have those scriptures correct and if that dove statement was suppose be total passivity allow evil people to just pound on you as they wish ..

these other scriptures are just as scriptural as yours ..you do understand we need to use the whole bible in context ..

See i can argue the way you do (HERE COMES THE JOKE PART ).. the bible says that if I believe in Jesus I am saved ..and many more scriptures says if I have faith i am saved because faith comes from God as a gift so I believe because of that faith .. so now i can do anything i want to ..i can even beat up and persecute Christians because i have a few scriptures that says I am saved..

and John no matter WHAT counter scriptures you give me I will just keep saying to you ..how does what you say, stop the scripture if I believe i am saved? .. and that's all i will say the whole time ..I will bubble up and pretend its dialect ..and whats more as I persecuit christians I will tell them they cannot fight back because of your scriptures says so .. (JOKE ENDS)

Not sure why you bother replying if your mind is closed off .. so please dont unless you actually want to take the entire bible serious.

 

[BukiRob]

Thankyou I really appreciate your reply.
It makes sense to me.
I think as Christians we should be doing everything possible to help our Christian brothers and sisters in countries like Egypt, Iraq, Iran etc.

My problem lies with who controls that Christian army, Donald Trump? Vladimir Putin? Theresa May?
Christianity has become weak and voiceless cowing down to politicians, wealthy organisations and vicious dictators.

Dan 12:11 "It is He who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding.

Christianity has become weak because it has traded OBEDIENCE for a "do right in your own eyes" mentally under the psuedo spiritual doctrines of name it and claim it along with living fleshly and calling being "led by the spirit"

Shall we let the pope or a king lead us? Last time that happened millions of people died and we killed our own brothers and sisters.
Christians need to question all authority in their lives.

The Tv and media have blinded us in our own comfortable environment.

I don't feel there is a strong enough Christian leader at the moment.
Also Christians have become fickle and soft only thinking of their own little kingdoms.

No, brother you are wrong. We are called to PRAY for our leaders. G-d establishes presidents and kings.

 

[sparow]

In the Garden of Gethsemane. Judas brought a group of centurions to arrest Jesus. When they laid hands on Jesus, one of His disciple reacted in self defense. Jesus went on to say this.

Matthew 26:50-52 New King James Version (NKJV)
50 But Jesus said to him, “Friend, why have you come?” Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and took Him. 51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear. 52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

Isn't it terrible; who then will be saved; one only has to hate someone to be guilty of murder.

I really do not think one can take these words of Jesus out of the context of all of scripture;
Ecclesiastes 3:1-3 (NKJV)
1 To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven:
2 A time to be born, And a time to die; A time to plant, And a time to pluck what is planted;
3 A time to kill, And a time to heal; A time to break down, And a time to build up;

Matthew 26:50-52, was a time not to kill; in these verses prophesy was being fulfilled and the enemies there were operating within the Law, were the Law.

Revelation 13:10 (NKJV)
10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

If a Christian was to find a time and reason to kill he would need not be opposing God and the fulfilment of prophesy; when the saints are being slaughtered two things are happening; the slayers are being judged and the victims are earning rewards; when slaying is required God usually has His enemies do it.

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

Hey Jonathan,
Thanks for that post. It is the first one I've seen in this thread (unless I missed something) that gives some clarity. You say we can use lethal force to prevent the imminent murder of an innocent, weaker person. Can you expand on this? How do we determine the "innocent" and would stopping a potential rape be valid or just potential murder? Even though I am against lethal force as an option for Christians, I think if we had clearly defined criteria like preventing an imminent murder of an innocent, I might see that an exception to the general rule.

The BEST answer is God's Word thru The Law of Moses. An "innocent person" is someone who is being killed for anything other then what the Law of Moses explicitly defines, and in the way the Law defines it (2+ witnesses, etc).

Here's a great place to start reading some explicit Law on the rightful and wrongful killing of humans: (What Does the Bible Say About Punishment For Murder?)

That being said, I see only 2 types of cases where God says the death of a human BY a human is right:

1) Hatred (Rebellion) against God and Parents
2) Unlawful killing of another human being

#1 is between God, Parents, and the Transgressor. I'm not involved because the decision there is between God and Parents. However, God has shown Himself to be Merciful and Long-suffering, hasn't He? Or we'd all be dead already...

#2 If someone has ALREADY unlawfully killed (murdered), it is right, fair, and just for them to be executed in like manner, according the Law of Moses. However, Christ calls us to a higher Love (Forgiveness) because He has forgiven our sins. That being said, here is the best example of this I've ever seen in 32 years on this earth:

Lastly, and this is my personal conviction, but I think I have the Spirit in this. #2 only involves me when I'm the only one able to stop the murder from occurring. Even then, the aim is never to kill, only to stop murder. For me, that may include putting myself in the way, using my hands, pepper spray, tasers, kicking, threatening with a knife, or even firing metal projectile into their arm, leg, or worse, the Transgressors chest (center of mass stops movement). Again, it should ONLY be motivated by the desire SAVE the innocent life and to STOP the unlawful killing, not TO KILL the Transgressor. All good law enforcement are taught this. Therefore, I should be well trained and prepared so as NOT to kill, but to precisely STOP the would-be Transgressor without killing him. If I do all that, whether they live or die is up to God.

 

[PastorFreud]

The BEST answer is God's Word thru The Law of Moses. An "innocent person" is someone who is being killed for anything other then what the Law of Moses explicitly defines, and in the way the Law defines it (2+ witnesses, etc).

Here's a great place to start reading some explicit Law on the rightful and wrongful killing of humans: (What Does the Bible Say About Punishment For Murder?)

That being said, I see only 2 types of cases where God says the death of a human BY a human is right:

1) Hatred (Rebellion) against God and Parents
2) Unlawful killing of another human being

#1 is between God, Parents, and the Transgressor. I'm not involved because the decision there is between God and Parents. However, God has shown Himself to be Merciful and Long-suffering, hasn't He? Or we'd all be dead already...

#2 If someone has ALREADY unlawfully killed (murdered), it is right, fair, and just for them to be executed in like manner, according the Law of Moses. However, Christ calls us to a higher Love (Forgiveness) because He has forgiven our sins. That being said, here is the best example of this I've ever seen in 32 years on this earth:

Lastly, and this is my personal conviction, but I think I have the Spirit in this. #2 only involves me when I'm the only one able to stop the murder from occurring. Even then, the aim is never to kill, only to stop murder. For me, that may include putting myself in the way, using my hands, pepper spray, tasers, kicking, threatening with a knife, or even firing metal projectile into their arm, leg, or worse, the Transgressors chest (center of mass stops movement). Again, it should ONLY be motivated by the desire SAVE the innocent life and to STOP the unlawful killing, not TO KILL the Transgressor. All good law enforcement are taught this. Therefore, I should be well trained and prepared so as NOT to kill, but to precisely STOP the would-be Transgressor without killing him. If I do all that, whether they live or die is up to God.

All that seems pretty reasonable. I can't wrap my head around the position of a couple of others here, but you make sense.

 

[GodB4S]

The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name....and he does not change. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect....I see the LORD tell many in the bible to kill. I would not have the desire to unless he told me to. Abraham had to kill Isaac but God stopped it before he did. Joshua killed many as others in the bible have...David killed Goliath and many others but he sinned when he kill Uriah...Elijah killed 450 prophets of Baal...Samson kill thousands before his death and more at his death...Jesus will slay all those around Jerusalem when he comes back, so many that his vesture will be red with the blood from the slain...will you be with him when he returns to see the birds eat the flesh of those that came against Jerusalem?

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I find it ironic that people who have NEVER served know what they will do.... So let me get this straight, if you are drafted and you end up on the ground with other soldiers you are going to carelessly and calously put them in extreme danger by your failure to protect?

Yes. No one can force me to do anything I do not want. So if forced to join, I'd rather be court marshaled. Though death sentence is considered the extreme outcome, not the only one. From what I remember learning though if I was drafted I could claim to be a "conscientious objector" and they would not let me join then. Free and clear! So its a line I have to remember for the future in case there was another draft for some reason.

And on side note, if they didn't care about "conscientious objector" and still made me join then I'd let them give me the death penalty. I won't serve a country who thinks I have to do what they want despite my religion/moral views.

 

[PastorFreud]

The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name....and he does not change. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect....I see the LORD tell many in the bible to kill. I would not have the desire to unless he told me to. Abraham had to kill Isaac but God stopped it before he did. Joshua killed many as others in the bible have...David killed Goliath and many others but he sinned when he kill Uriah...Elijah killed 450 prophets of Baal...Samson kill thousands before his death and more at his death...Jesus will slay all those around Jerusalem when he comes back, so many that his vesture will be red with the blood from the slain...will you be with him when he returns to see the birds eat the flesh of those that came against Jerusalem?

These are all examples before Jesus. I think Jesus slaying those around Jerusalem sounds like an interpretation of Revelation? Not sure these examples are examples of what we should do.

 

[Der Alte]

The law of Moses says Deuteronomy 21:18, Deuteronomy 21:21

Why did your omit the complete context? That's why I asked the question I did. Most folks who try to cram this passage down peoples's throat quote only part of the passage and try to make it appear that a parent was required to stone his disobedient child, but that is not what it says., is it?

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
(18) If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
(19) Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
(20) And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
(21) And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.​

Please note the correct procedure.
If a child is disobedient and does not respond to the parents and will not listen after being chastened by the parent. The parent does not stone the child but takes him to the elders, the legally constituted justice authority, and if the elders find the child guilty the parent still doesn't stone the child but the men of the city do. So when read in-context this passage has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Just argumentative smoke screen.

 

[ldibart]

Dan 12:11 "It is He who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding.

Christianity has become weak because it has traded OBEDIENCE for a "do right in your own eyes" mentally under the psuedo spiritual doctrines of name it and claim it along with living fleshly and calling being "led by the spirit"


No, brother you are wrong. We are called to PRAY for our leaders. G-d establishes presidents and kings.

God establishes Governments WE THE PEOPLE are that Government that God has established we take down presidents and put them up . If God does indeed establish Governments then he established us to be this government . IF the ones that represent our government become corrupted those that represent our government is not obeying that government and THEY are held accountable to US and we remove them.

 

[Der Alte]

I am not making an appeal to hypocrisy, despite your bouncing about screaming "Tu Quoque." I'm trying to show how all religions have gone through a world domination phase.

Which is irrelevant to this discussion. If you wish to discuss how Islam, medieval Christianity and/or pre-Christian Judaism all went through a world domination phase then start another thread. Please read the title of this thread and confine your arguments to the topic. I remember in the 6th grade just before I got a paddling for throwing erasers the teacher said "If all the other kids jumped off the top of the building would you do it?

In context, I said, "You seem...." OR is it "....." and I went on with two other choices. And then asked you to clarify. You really haven't made your criteria clear, so all I have left is guessing. Why won't you say what you criteria are? Why are you afraid to make your meaning plain so we can discuss it?

What exactly are you asking? Make your question plain so I can understand it.

Billionbibles is not a credible source for this topic. Breitbart doesn't think Saba Ahmed is a credible source:

Deception Cloaked in an American Flag - Breitbart
Would you like to argue whether Breitbart is a credible source?

Thank you for your opinion of billionbibles. Did you happen to note the citations for the Quran and Hadith? Breitbart has come under some criticism for their reporting of late. Who is Saba Ahmed, a muslim? I linked to a panel discussion which featured a response by Brigitte Gabriel a Lebanese born Christian.

 

[GodB4S]

These are all examples before Jesus. I think Jesus slaying those around Jerusalem sounds like an interpretation of Revelation? Not sure these examples are examples of what we should do.

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army." Jesus is the one on the horse and who do you think is his army?. I am in the LORD's army! I am a weapon of God!

 

[PastorFreud]

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army." Jesus is the one on the horse and who do you think is his army?. I am in the LORD's army! I am a weapon of God!

What a frightening misinterpretation of Revelation.

 

[PastorFreud]

Which is irrelevant to this discussion. If you wish to discuss how Islam, medieval Christianity and/or pre-Christian Judaism all went through a world domination phase then start another thread. Please read the title of this thread and confine your arguments to the topic. I remember in the 6th grade just before I got a paddling for throwing erasers the teacher said "If all the other kids jumped off the top of the building would you do it?

What exactly are you asking? Make your question plain so I can understand it.

Thank you for your opinion of billionbibles. Did you happen to note the citations for the Quran and Hadith? Breitbart has come under some criticism for their reporting of late. Who is Saba Ahmed, a muslim? I linked to a panel discussion which featured a response by Brigitte Gabriel a Lebanese born Christian.

It would appear you are not actually reading the posts but just responding to key words. You were the one making a proposition that Muslims are bent on destroying us based on your list from the Quran. I was showing how our OT bible and even the NT text can also be interpreted as violent. In fact,
Text Analysis of Bible VS Quran
this article reports a textual analysis and shows that both the NT and the OT are more violent, word wise, that the Quran. Again, not defending Muslims, but countering your point that a list from a biased website is adequate evidence for your point.

In the article you linked to (maybe you didn't read it?) Saba Ahmed is the person who is credited with the numbers that you cited about how many violent Muslims there are. And the number of Muslims seeking reform continue to grow. Maybe I missed Brigitte Gabriel in the link. I'll look at it again.

Jonathan understood my question. Where is the line where killing someone else is not acceptable, and then crossing that line it is acceptable? Jonathan said imminent murder in progress. What say you?

 

[PastorFreud]

Who is Saba Ahmed, a muslim? I linked to a panel discussion which featured a response by Brigitte Gabriel a Lebanese born Christian.

Ok, so Saba Ahmed was on the panel. I missed a paragraph. It was Brigitte Gabriel who quoted the numbers, numbers which I could not find substantiated anywhere else. But I did find this: "The Military Religious Freedom Foundation, a U.S. veterans group, refers to Gabriel as 'pathologically bigoted.'"

 

[harkpuff]

I think this conversation is taking off in many directions which is confusing the original question.
The original question was, is it ever ok to kill our enemies in the name of Jesus?
In other words, like ISIS, do we run screaming at our enemies that we are killing them in the name of Jesus? The answer to that would be a resounding NO! By the nature of Jesus and God, this is not what They would have us to do.
Other misconceptions:
The Thou shall not kill in the Ten Commandments, translated from the original text means to "Murder". There is a huge difference.
Secondly someone mentioned something about us Hating to a degree that we are willing to violate one of the Ten Commandments.
First of all....one does not have to engage in the act of hate to kill an enemy of the state, or kill someone who is threatening the safety of a child or family members from a would be killer.
I believe that God has placed within men and women a natural quality and defense mechanism to protect his family. Somewhere in Scripture it says we are to protect the innocent.
As a Christian man I can love mankind like Jesus does and still be absolutely devastated that it was necessary for me to take another life while protecting my wife or children, or country. It is an awful thing to have to do and nobody said we had to enjoy it.
However, I defy these fuzzy wuzzy legalistic theologians to convince me that if all of the sudden Freddie Kruger showed up on your front door step announcing that he was going to rape and butcher your wife and daughters before your very eyes that you would gladly invite him in for a cup of warm cocoa and a few verses of Kum-By-Ahh and share a few Bible verses.
The very fact that he was on your doorstep and announcing his intent is an indicator that he has chosen his fate and I can almost guarantee that any Bible believing mother or father would be frantically going for their 357 Magnum rather than their Bible. And none of these folks would be less of a Christian for doing so.
Look into the eyes of your three year old child and You tell me you are just going to hand your baby to Freddie on a platter in the name of Jesus.

 

[SolomonVII]

I think it is a cop out, as far as answers go.
Fair enough.
Carry on.

 

[harkpuff]

Yes. No one can force me to do anything I do not want. So if forced to join, I'd rather be court marshaled. Though death sentence is considered the extreme outcome, not the only one. From what I remember learning though if I was drafted I could claim to be a "conscientious objector" and they would not let me join then. Free and clear! So its a line I have to remember for the future in case there was another draft for some reason.

And on side note, if they didn't care about "conscientious objector" and still made me join then I'd let them give me the death penalty. I won't serve a country who thinks I have to do what they want despite my religion/moral views.

Old Testament history teaches us that in order for God to further His plans for the salvation of His human creation here on earth, God first had to create conditions that would enable his plans to flourish and take root.
In order to give the Hebrew people (from which Jesus would come) a place of peaceful existence, He first had to rid the promised land of all sorts of evil tribes and influences, thus God's armies under great men of war like Saul and David at times were ordered under God to annihilate entire cities of men, women, children and even livestock.
Fast forward to modern day history. God's word says that He has put governments in place and we are to honor the king. This does not mean we are to blindly honor someone like Adolph Hitler who goes completely contrary to God's Word. But, being part of a country who is willing to fight to maintain peace against the Godless Satanic evils of Communism, in order for peaceful conditions to continue to exist for the furtherance of God's Word and to save the lost is an honorable thing that does not violate the Ten Commandments, since it is not an act of premeditated murder.
This world is Satan's domain and Hitler was Satan in boot leather and this war between good and evil has been going on since the Garden of Eden.
It's a good thing that Saul and David and all the men of WWII were not consciences objectors, because the Hebrew people would have never gotten their promised land and all of the world countries today would be goose stepping under the godless flag of the swastika right now and enjoying none of the freedoms of worship and worldwide evangelism.

 

[SolomonVII]

I think this conversation is taking off in many directions which is confusing the original question.
The original question was, is it ever ok to kill our enemies in the name of Jesus?
In other words, like ISIS, do we run screaming at our enemies that we are killing them in the name of Jesus? The answer to that would be a resounding NO! By the nature of Jesus and God, this is not what They would have us to do.

Amen to that.

Other misconceptions:
The Thou shall not kill in the Ten Commandments, translated from the original text means to "Murder". There is a huge difference.
Secondly someone mentioned something about us Hating to a degree that we are willing to violate one of the Ten Commandments.
First of all....one does not have to engage in the act of hate to kill an enemy of the state, or kill someone who is threatening the safety of a child or family members from a would be killer.
I believe that God has placed within men and women a natural quality and defense mechanism to protect his family. Somewhere in Scripture it says we are to protect the innocent.
As a Christian man I can love mankind like Jesus does and still be absolutely devastated that it was necessary for me to take another life while protecting my wife or children, or country. It is an awful thing to have to do and nobody said we had to enjoy it.
However, I defy these fuzzy wuzzy legalistic theologians to convince me that if all of the sudden Freddie Kruger showed up on your front door step announcing that he was going to rape and butcher your wife and daughters before your very eyes that you would gladly invite him in for a cup of warm cocoa and a few verses of Kum-By-Ahh and share a few Bible verses.
The very fact that he was on your doorstep and announcing his intent is an indicator that he has chosen his fate and I can almost guarantee that any Bible believing mother or father would be frantically going for their 357 Magnum rather than their Bible. And none of these folks would be less of a Christian for doing so.
Look into the eyes of your three year old child and You tell me you are just going to hand your baby to Freddie on a platter in the name of Jesus.

Jesus always challenges us to go beyond the letter of the law. It is not enough that we refrain from murdering; we are challenged to deal with the emotions of anger that would lead to that murder. It is not enough that we don't sleep with the neighbour's wife; we are challenged to deal with the emotions that are stirred within us every time we see that beautiful woman.
We are challenged always and everywhere to be better, to shine brighter in a moral sense than the people around us.
The thing is, refraining from doing all that is in our power to deal with the truly evil does not make us shine. It does not make us higher than the angels. To be passive in the face of evil attacking those we love and are responsible for makes us lower than the monsters who perpetrate the evil in the first place.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Old Testament history teaches us that in order for God to further His plans for the salvation of His human creation here on earth, God first had to create conditions that would enable his plans to flourish and take root.
In order to give the Hebrew people (from which Jesus would come) a place of peaceful existence, He first had to rid the promised land of all sorts of evil tribes and influences, thus God's armies under great men of war like Saul and David at times were ordered under God to annihilate entire cities of men, women, children and even livestock.
Fast forward to modern day history. God's word says that He has put governments in place and we are to honor the king. This does not mean we are to blindly honor someone like Adolph Hitler who goes completely contrary to God's Word. But, being part of a country who is willing to fight to maintain peace against the Godless Satanic evils of Communism, in order for peaceful conditions to continue to exist for the furtherance of God's Word and to save the lost is an honorable thing that does not violate the Ten Commandments, since it is not an act of premeditated murder.
This world is Satan's domain and Hitler was Satan in boot leather and this war between good and evil has been going on since the Garden of Eden.
It's a good thing that Saul and David and all the men of WWII were not consciences objectors, because the Hebrew people would have never gotten their promised land and all of the world countries today would be goose stepping under the godless flag of the swastika right now and enjoying none of the freedoms of worship and worldwide evangelism.

I guess I'd ask what if I were drafted to go to war on Israel. What do we choose? In the end I'm more of a pacifist. I don't want to kill anyone despite the situation. Even if my house were broken into by a man with a gun, I'd prefer to harm him, not kill him. Obviously if I had no choice I'd kill him and I know it was self defense. I just seen enough gore online that its horrible and I don't want to do that to someone. To be fair though the odds of me being in a situation like that are slim.