Is God Unjust to Save Some?

[BNR32FAN]

I'm inspired by George Whitfield in this thread. John Wesley preached against Whitefield's Calvinism (although they were dearly beloved friends). Wesley said that God would be unjust if he sovereignly chose to save only some and sovereignly chose to condemn others to hell. Here is how Whitfield responded:

Would God have been unjust to pass over every sinner and save none? If God is not unjust by saving none, then surely he is not unjust to mercifully save some while passing over others.

What do you say? Is God unjust to save some?

Unjust? Yes I believe it would be unjust to save some and not all if that were the case. For who deserves to receive salvation? Choosing one unworthy person over another person who is equally unworthy would be unfair hence unjust. But I don’t believe this is what God has done and I’ll just leave it at that as to not cause a huge debate in this particular thread.

 

[Tree of Life]

Unjust? Yes I believe it would be unjust to save some and not all if that were the case. For who deserves to receive salvation? Choosing one unworthy person over another person who is equally unworthy would be unfair hence unjust. But I don’t believe this is what God has done and I’ll just leave it at that as to not cause a huge debate in this particular thread.

So if God saves one sinner he is obligated to save them all? If God graciously cures one person of cancer is he obligated to cure all cancer patients?

You and my kids have the same idea of what is just. They think it's unfair if I graciously give one of them (and not all) a candy bar!

 

[BNR32FAN]

So if God saves one sinner he is obligated to save them all? If God graciously cures one person of cancer is he obligated to cure all cancer patients?

You asked if it was unjust not that He is obligated. God is only obligated to do what He promised. Unjust simply means not behaving on what is morally right or fair. God choosing one sinner over another would not be fair. If you have two children do you only feed and love one but let the other go hungry and not care about it? Would that be unjust?

 

[Tree of Life]

You asked if it was unjust not that He is obligated. God is only obligated to do what He promised. Unjust simply means not behaving on what is morally right or fair. God choosing one sinner over another would not be fair. If you have two children do you only feed and love one but let the other go hungry and not care about it? Would that be unjust?

You are confused. Justice and obligation are two sides of the same coin. If God behaves unjustly it is because he is violating some moral obligation.

You say that it would be immoral for God to save one sinner and not another. Where do you get this idea from?

 

[grasping the after wind]

This is a very odd bunch of sentences. I don't see a meaningful difference between the concepts of justice and fairness.

I'm surprised you do not understand what I am getting at. I am saying that to be unjust is a moral term. It is morally reprehensible to be unjust. To be unjust would be to deprive a person of what they deserve or to punish a person that does not deserve punishment. To be unfair is not a measure of whether something is morally right or wrong but rather a calculation of whether something is equally meted out. To be unfair only requires that one favor one over the other and it does not matter what either one might deserve. Unless I have been mislead, according to Calvinistic philosophy, God favors those He decides to save over those He decides not to. Saving one set of people and not the other but he does not deprive salvation nor punish anyone that deserves saving or doesn't deserve punishment. Instead He chooses to bestow his Grace and Mercy upon those He has decided to favor who are no more worthy of that Grace and Mercy than those He decides not to favor. So I say that it is not fair but it is just.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are confused. Justice and obligation are two sides of the same coin. If God behaves unjustly it is because he is violating some moral obligation.

You say that it would be immoral for God to save one sinner and not another. Where do you get this idea from?

You didn’t answer the question. And I never said God behaves unjustly. I said if He choose some who are unworthy to be saved and doesn’t choose all who are unworthy to be saved that would be unjust. But God doesn’t choose some to be saved. He chooses for all of us to be saved. Unfortunately many do not accept His gracious gift.

 

[Tree of Life]

I'm surprised you do not understand what I am getting at. I am saying that to be unjust is a moral term. It is morally reprehensible to be unjust. To be unjust would be to deprive a person of what they deserve or to punish a person that does not deserve punishment. To be unfair is not a measure of whether something is morally right or wrong but rather a calculation of whether something is equally meted out. To be unfair only requires that one favor one over the other and it does not matter what either one might deserve. Unless I have been mislead, according to Calvinistic philosophy, God favors those He decides to save over those He decides not to. Saving one set of people and not the other but he does not deprive salvation nor punish anyone that deserves saving or doesn't deserve punishment. Instead He chooses to bestow his Grace and Mercy upon those He has decided to favor who are no more worthy of that Grace and Mercy than those He decides not to favor. So I say that it is not fair but it is just.

Ok I understand your meaning. I believe that God does not treat people equally. But he is not unjust in doing so. Do you think that God treats all people equally?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

AND, whoever, out of everyone,
whoever SEEKS HIM, and keeps on seeking HIM, will FIND HIM.

HIS PROMISE, all through HIS WORD,PLANand PURPOSE in CHRIST JESUS.

 

[Tree of Life]

I said if He choose some who are unworthy to be saved and doesn’t choose all who are unworthy to be saved that would be unjust.

Where do you get this idea?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm surprised you do not understand what I am getting at. I am saying that to be unjust is a moral term. It is morally reprehensible to be unjust. To be unjust would be to deprive a person of what they deserve or to punish a person that does not deserve punishment. To be unfair is not a measure of whether something is morally right or wrong but rather a calculation of whether something is equally meted out. To be unfair only requires that one favor one over the other and it does not matter what either one might deserve. Unless I have been mislead, according to Calvinistic philosophy, God favors those He decides to save over those He decides not to. Saving one set of people and not the other but he does not deprive salvation nor punish anyone that deserves saving or doesn't deserve punishment. Instead He chooses to bestow his Grace and Mercy upon those He has decided to favor who are no more worthy of that Grace and Mercy than those He decides not to favor. So I say that it is not fair but it is just.

Just-based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair

 

[grasping the after wind]

Ok I understand your meaning. I believe that God does not treat people equally. But he is not unjust in doing so. Do you think that God treats all people equally?

I think God 's thoughts are not my thoughts and my attempting to decide what God would consider equal treatment is beyond me. I would however agree with you that if God does treat people unequally that that would not be unjust.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Just-based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair

Are you giving us your definition of Just here? I think you may be but am not sure.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where do you get this idea?

It’s common sense. You see Calvinism teaches that no one can even want to love God unless they are chosen. So then their own disobedience is a result of God’s choice making God responsible for their ungodliness and hence it is unjust that He would choose some to be saved and some to perish because their ungodliness is a result of His own choice. It would not be the ungodly person’s fault for their disobedience but ultimately God’s fault. That’s just one of many errors in Calvinism.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are you giving us your definition of Just here? I think you may be but am not sure.

No I copied & pasted it from the dictionary on my phone

 

[Tree of Life]

It’s common sense.

It may make sense to you, but it does not make sense to me and many others. I deny that it is common sense. And since you cannot support it with Scripture I don't see why I should take it as anything more than your opinion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It may make sense to you, but it does not make sense to me and many others. I deny that it is common sense. And since you cannot support it with Scripture I don't see why I should take it as anything more than your opinion.

Didn’t want to tackle that one eh? Lol

 

[Tree of Life]

Didn’t want to tackle that one eh? Lol

No need to tackle the mere opinions of man. If you can mount a Scriptural response then I will deal with that.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You see Calvinism teaches that no one can even want to love God unless they are chosen.

Really? I find it hard to believe they would say that, or that anyone would say such a thing.

So then their own disobedience is a result of God’s choice making God responsible for their ungodliness and hence it is unjust that He would choose some to be saved and some to perish because their ungodliness is a result of His own choice.

There seems to be a jump from teaching someone love God because they are chosen (if they believe that)
to teaching that disobedience being God's choice also ?
What's the connection ? Do they teach that disobedience to God is God's choice also, --- Is that related to teaching that "to love God" is God's choice ?

It would not be the ungodly person’s fault for their disobedience but ultimately God’s fault.

Isn't it God's Choice whether or not it is the ungodly person's fault too ?
If everything is God's Choice ?!

That’s just one of many errors in Calvinism.

I'm not sure anyone in any religion cares to have their dirty laundry aired out here ?
Did anyone ask for this ?

 

[grasping the after wind]

No I copied & pasted it from the dictionary on my phone

Well that is kind of what I was asking . I wasn't trying to insinuate you were making up a definition if that is how you saw my question I am sorry for the clumsy way I put it. Is that definition that you copired and pasted from your phone the one you would find most apt? If so then we will slightly disagree on the inclusion of "and fair" in the definition. My quarrel with the inclusion is more in terms of the meaning of the word "fair" than anything else, as in modern usage that word means something altogether different than it would have years ago when I would have found the definition of just you provided to be much more apt. When fair meant something more like equitable than equally distributed, I would have been more likely to accept it as being something included in the idea of being just. Still I will stick to my idea that just means giving others what they deserve and fair means giving others equal treatment regardless of what they deserve. We can agree to disagree on that but there is no sense in us spending our time telling each other how right we are and how wrong the other one is about the definition of just.

 

[Hammster]

You asked if it was unjust not that He is obligated. God is only obligated to do what He promised. Unjust simply means not behaving on what is morally right or fair. God choosing one sinner over another would not be fair. If you have two children do you only feed and love one but let the other go hungry and not care about it? Would that be unjust?

The assumption here is that all are His children. Scripture doesn’t support that.