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Featured Is God Unjust to Save Some?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    I'm inspired by George Whitfield in this thread. John Wesley preached against Whitefield's Calvinism (although they were dearly beloved friends). Wesley said that God would be unjust if he sovereignly chose to save only some and sovereignly chose to condemn others to hell. Here is how Whitfield responded:

    Would God have been unjust to pass over every sinner and save none? If God is not unjust by saving none, then surely he is not unjust to mercifully save some while passing over others.

    What do you say? Is God unjust to save some?
     
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  2. JohnB445

    JohnB445 Well-Known Member

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    After some reflecting, I don't understand either why people aren't getting saved or regenerated.

    I don't know why God doesn't just pour his grace on everyone, or if people are just willfully rejecting it all the time. But it doesn't make sense for someone to willfully reject it. A friend of mine believes that people would want to willingly want to go to hell to end up there, don't know how that makes any sense.

    Do people really like darkness that much? I don't know

    People can get eternal life for free, but no one wants it.
     
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  3. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    Everyone wants eternal life. Sinners simply hate the God that they'd be worshipping for eternity! We'd be happy to have an eternal life full of God's blessings so long as God stays out of the picture.

    The Bible teaches that a person can only want God if God graciously regenerates their hearts. God only does this for some.
     
  4. JohnB445

    JohnB445 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe they aren't being genuine with God, and don't want a real relationship with him?

    Could be a reason, especially with the new Evangelism movement with the sinner's prayer which doesn't seem to be doing much. They also do not tend to like to talk about sin or discuss it much, or talk about being regenerated like the New Birth (Born Again).
     
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Your response on my screen was only 4 lines and you touched on some valid and serious issues.
     
  6. NeedyFollower

    NeedyFollower Well-Known Member

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    Jesus spoke a parable of the wheat and the tares . The tares were sown by the enemy though Paul says we were all children of wrath prior to the new birth . I recall being on an overseas flight as an unregenerate sinner and thinking to myself , " I'll repent if this plane should start to go down . " ...Of course that was not repentance but rather just not wanting to go to hell . By and only through God's mercy , I actually did repent several years later but it was due to God's love for wicked men like me ...I could not understand how he could love someone like me ...It broke my heart . May it it stay broken . To answer your question ...The grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men , teaching us that...etc. Maybe God grants an opportunity of repentance to His children whereas the children of the enemy would and could only spurn God ...since the children of the enemy are like their father , they would by definition be too proud to repent . Jesus said , Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
     
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  7. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    The sinner against me wrongs his own soul, and all who hate me love death. (Proverbs 8:36)

    That's not prophetic in the sense if God speaking directly, that's God's wisdom, what we might call God's natural revelation (Romans 1:18-20). How long will simple ones love simple ways, fools hate knowledge and mockers delight in scorn it says in the early chapters. The point being God has made enough known that we are without excuse for our sin, and we know just enough to hear the inescapable call of God's wisdom as it calls out in the public squares.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
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  8. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    I had to cut the previous post short, my point was we all get a sufficient level of revelation to know God is righteous and we are not. That means every sinner who rejects what light he has runs the risk of going on to perdition, as Paul says, those who have the Law will be judged by the Law, those who do not have the Law will be judged apart from the Law.
     
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  9. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    The 'evangelical' message, the 'good news' is that you being a sinner are invited to receive the mercies of God in Christ. The two biggest question for me have always been what you are saved from and what you are saved for, not that the regeneration that happens in the middle is some small thing. Ministers of grace have long preached fire and brimstone, Johnathan Edward's 'Sinners in the hands of an Angry God' comes to mind. With Calvinists sin is seen as so bad that it takes a miracle for you to even understand the gospel and have the will to repent. I've identified with Calvinism for that reason because it was my experience that I felt utterly helpless under the weight of conviction for sin, just never thought there was anyway I could measure up to what God wanted from me. Praying the sinners prayer one night God responded, even though I must have prayed it a half a dozen times before, to no effect.

    I don't know of a gospel that doesn't first convict of sin, I have no idea how that would work. If you can read the Proverbs and not realize your the fool wisdom is talking to, if you can read Romans 1 and not realize that you are the sinner Paul is talking about, you missed the whole point.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
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  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    I think we see support in John 3 for your comments.

    John 3: ESV
    18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
     
  11. BBAS 64

    BBAS 64 Contributor Supporter

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    Good Day, Tree of Life

    Saving some is the fullest expression of God's freedom.

    In Him,

    Bill
     
  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    God would be within His right to do nothing and let us destroy ourselves, but God goes further than that, God demonstrates His love in that Christ died for us sinners. That's the Gospel.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  13. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    :oldthumbsup:

    No, because the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23 and we have all sinned, Romans 3:23.
    We don't deserve, and can never earn, anything from God, and if he had decided to destroy us all rather than show mercy, and offer grace; he would have been justified in doing so.

    No, because that would mean that God was denying himself.
    ALL are sinners, Romans 3:23, and Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8. If God said, "I am only going to save some of you", it would suggest that there were some sinners for whom Christ did not die; that some could have their sins forgiven and receive eternal life but that some could not, because God had chosen not to save them. It would mean that when Jesus said "come to me", "believe in me" or "receive me" he should have said, "but only those who have been pre-selected for salvation", or "these words are for only a few people; God has chosen to reject the rest of you."

    Showing mercy to a few people, while ignoring/passing over others does not, to me, fit with a God who is love.
     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    John 3:19 And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world ...

    https://biblehub.com/john/3-19.htm

    And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.

    Revelation 9:20 Now the rest of mankind who were not killed by these ...

    https://biblehub.com/revelation/9-20.htm

    The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, ...
     
  15. NeedyFollower

    NeedyFollower Well-Known Member

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    "And He could do there not mighty works because of their unbelief." Mark 6:5-6 . If a captain of a ship calls out to abandon ship so that people may be saved by going into another ship but people would not hear him through their unbelief , would the captain be guilty of not showing love ? It is not God's will that any should perish but that they all should come to repentance . Through unbelief ( a form of trusting in their own boat ) many will perish . But an ark has been prepared through the most significant cost ever . Christ became sin for US and took it to the grave . Being human and full of sin , I do not suppose we can understand what that must have been like for purity to take on sin and the sin of the whole world ...all the atrocities ...Maybe like a child being forced to watch porn or themselves being defiled ...utterly disgusting and abhorrent . I can't imagine how it grieved Christ Jesus to have to drink from that cup . But love compelled Him . God does not reject us , we reject Him and thereby choose death over life .
     
  16. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I think God is just, the salvation, forgiveness of sins, is equally for all, but if person doesn’t accept it and don’t repent and don’t become righteous, it is not useful.


    "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."

    John 8:11

    They went out and preached that people should repent.
    Mark. 6:12

    There must happen change in persons heart so that he becomes righteous, if he is not already.


    Jesus answered him, "Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'

    John 3:3-7

    But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    John 1:12-13


    Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.

    1 John 3:7-10

    ...the righteous into eternal life.
    Mat. 25:46


    "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."

    Hebrews 8:10-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

    It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
    John 6:63

    The offering is for all, but not all want to come to light.

    This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
    John 3:19-21
     
  17. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    So a God who is love must either save none or endeavor to save all? He cannot, in love, save some?

    If God chose to save none, would that be inconsistent with his love?
     
  18. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    If God wishes to treat one child of His better than another when neither has earned any sort of benevolent treatment that is not unjust it is merely unfair. To be unjust the one child would have to deserve the better treatment that God gave the other child. As neither child deserves better treatment but one gets better treatment that is unfair but not unjust.
     
  19. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    To save all would be inconsistent with his justice. Certainly the bsasis for salvation is available at some level but narrow is the path to live and few are they that find it. Broad is the path that leads to destruction and many there are who go thereby.
     
  20. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    This is a very odd bunch of sentences. I don't see a meaningful difference between the concepts of justice and fairness.
     
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