Is eating Pork wrong?

[ViaCrucis]

Cleansed ''Homosexuality''...

If the food laws are no longer in effect then...

Curious: How strictly do you abide by Leviticus 15:16-17/Deuteronomy 23:9-11? How about Leviticus 19:19?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Fireinfolding]

I dont know if you guys have ever heard of this letter but it was a real letter sent to a doctor Laura who teaches the Levitcal law. I think the letter was meant to make you think (perhaps give you a chuckle) but it does make the point (according to the way it can be taken) that folks pick and chose from it (even naturally speaking)

This one from (something like) 5 years ago, I just never fogot it

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.

I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge
with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual
lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly
states it to be an abomination. ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of
God's Law and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They
claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A
friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not
Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2.
The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.
How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of
getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we
just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people
who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable
expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,
Anonymous

Anyone remeber this letter? It sorta went viral back in the day

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I dont know if you guys have ever heard of this letter but it was a real letter sent to a doctor Laura who teaches the Levitcal law. I think the letter was meant to make you think (perhaps give you a chuckle) but it does make the point (according to the way it can be taken) that folks pick and chose from it (even naturally speaking)

This one from (something like) 5 years ago, I just never fogot it





Anyone remeber this letter? It sorta went viral back in the day

Thats a good one Fire, I note a touch of sarcasm in the tone of the letter.

Thats the thing, the law of Moses is spiritually discerned, it is written in metaphors and can only be discerned by the Holy Spirit.

That is why I said God did not change his mind, it was the carnal mind of man that needed to change in order to understand the true spiritual meanings written into the law.

With God there is no variance, no shadow of turning. It was the mind of man that needed to change by way of Gods Spirit in order to understand those deep things hidden in the natural law.(which is prophecy)

That is why Jesus said not one jot or one tittle of the law shall pass, till heaven and earth pass away. Because every last bit of the prophecy hidden in the law shall be fulfilled before heaven and earth pass away.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Thats a good one Fire, I note a touch of sarcasm in the tone of the letter.

Thats the thing, the law of Moses is spiritually discerned, it is written in metaphors and can only be discerned by the Holy Spirit.

That is why I said God did not change his mind, it was the carnal mind of man that needed to change in order to understand the true spiritual meanings written into the law.

With God there is no variance, no shadow of turning. It was the mind of man that needed to change by way of Gods Spirit in order to understand those deep things hidden in the natural law.(which is prophecy)

That is why Jesus said not one jot or one tittle of the law shall pass, till heaven and earth pass away. Because every last bit of the prophecy hidden in the law shall be fulfilled before heaven and earth pass away.

The sarcasm just made it

Well yeah bro, you can sure catch that which is in Leviticus in Revelation here and there, how its worded

Lev 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Theres no denying that,"shall make her naked"

Isaiah 47:3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.


Lam 1:8 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward.


I mean you see the same wording used throughout, but to take those things to yourself to literal pull a womans skirt up to see their literal nakedness and take a blowtorch to burn them with literal fire seems to miss how they speak elsewhere. But we could always yank one verse out and do (as is always done on these forums) and be like Oh yeah, " what about THIS"?? And what about THIS ONE?

Thats always done here, "What cha say about THIS ONE" huh huh?

I must say that gets so old with me, but sometimes it can be fun to play along (depend on my mood I guess) lol

God bless you brother

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The sarcasm just made it

Well yeah bro, you can sure catch that which is in Leviticus in Revelation here and there, how its worded

Lev 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Theres no denying that,"shall make her naked"

Isaiah 47:3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.


Lam 1:8 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward.


I mean you see the same wording used throughout, but to take those things to yourself to literal pull a womans skirt up to see their literal nakedness and take a blowtorch to burn them with literal fire seems to miss how they speak elsewhere. But we could always yank one verse out and do (as is always done on these forums) and be like Oh yeah, " what about THIS"?? And what about THIS ONE?

Thats always done here, "What cha say about THIS ONE" huh huh?

I must say that gets so old with me, but sometimes it can be fun to play along (depend on my mood I guess) lol

God bless you brother

One of the first things the Lord revealed to me through the Holy Spirit was the true meaning of the tithe, or tenth part; which is the Lords portion of his people.

A few days after recieving the anointing of the Holy Spirit I was flipping through the christian network channels(when I had cable). And I saw on every channel a different preacher laying a guilt trip on their congregations about paying to them the tenth part of their income to the church they belonged to. Most were telling their congregations it was a sin against God not to do so.

As I was watching this display of greed by these wolves in sheeps clothing I had this over whelming feeling of nausea come over me for a few seconds by way of the Spirit. It was then I sought out by scripture what the Lord was truly showing in this sign given in the law of Moses.

But what I thought was even more strange is how these same preachers will tell their congregations the law was nailed to the cross, and done away with when Christ was crucified. But then in the next breath they will try to lay a guilt trip on them about keeping the law of the tithe.

And I thought, Wow, that is hypocrisy in the highest. And yet, there are still people who swallow it, hook, line, and sinker.

To the carnal mind the law is a curse, but to the Spiritual mind it is the Glory of God.

 

[Fireinfolding]

It took me a couple of years before my first revelation because I couldnt read, I didnt know the difference between thee and thou

I needed a dictionary to His mouth (for a long time) and then after a couple of years I just naturally found myself (with my little highlighter pens) flipping back and forth between the OT and the NT, it was sorta strange too, because thats not a natural thing to do, but it began to, no one needed to tell me to do that. And I found He is just the best teacher, so faithful and if it werent for His drawing there would have been no way my natural energy would be enough to get me to Him.

Its weird that you mention your first revelation was the tenth, my first failure to discern was that very thing. I'll never forget the guys name either (but I wont tell) because someone who has befreinded me sorta posts his videos to me followed by that same gut wrenching feeling you describe I want to say RUN! LOL

Because heres the thing, I hadnt no problem leaving all on my end, I had nothing, no job, no home, I lived at home with my parents and my intent was not to seek anything but God. What was weird about this incident, being so young in the Lord and without knowledge and understanding, this guy used not seeking God for the best (so to speak) was paraded around as if the devil was stealing from me (sorta thing) know how they do that? Well here I was, thinking wow, the devil does want to steal and here I am with nothing (even though I was perfectly content) and so his motto was you are the KINGS kids, you gonna let the devil steal your blessings from you?

I know... the shady things they SAY! Well, then I began to doubt in myself however I knew in myself there was nothing I really desired, but I felt maybe I should ask? I dont want that devil to get one over on me (Notice how I missed it? ) I was already taken in but looking back I can see just how gullible, and ungrounded I was) and I went from content to tossed, because I would pray, and would not receive (see?) I was asking amiss (anyway) believing this guy, which then snowballs you into the endless guilt they heaped on you (in the ways that they do that) which demanded more and more from you (and further dependence on them, because they know so much better then you) a mere babe. Whats great about the Lord is His faithfulness even to babes growing in Him, He eventually exposes those predators. Im glad the apostles speak of this time for babes, they will be naturally tossed, by nature of their age and so I was also.

Thank God that only lasted a few months, shortly after I became very distrusting of men and shut them all out. I only knew (then) I was hungry for God, and did what any babe would seek to do, listen to everything under the sun about Him. What was clearly noticable in this time that all this inner blessedness (I knew) shot right out the window (I believe I had to perceive that in myself) to teach me (through this experience) to discern between good and evil (those who served God and those who did not). So I do see it as an important step. The experience (looking back) was a good one for me, I can see that now. His faithfulness to me exceeds theirs and I know His compassion for those who are out of the way even as I was. And I can perceive a mountain trails from a mile away, something grabs hold of a person and they have tunnel vision, you can try to help but sometimes it just needs to run its course (sometimes).

I hate admitting that happened to me but its true it did, "that we be no more children tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine" the slieght of men deceiving and corrupting the words of God by how they tie things together.

God bless you brother

 

[Eccl12and13]

How about looking at the OP from a different side. How about reading and reasoning from God's what He will do in the future. Let's read how and what laws Jesus will enforce when He returns to rule here on earth for 1000 years;

Rev.12
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
Rev.19
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev.2
[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

So we find that Jesus will be quite the harsh King, when He arrives. It’s NOT going to be a walk in the park, at least not for those that disobey, as some may have pictured. The Lamb of God has come and gone. When Jesus returns to rule, He will come as the LION OF JUDAH!

Now let's read some of His laws He will enforce;

Zech. 14
[16] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
[18] And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
[19] This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

So we know that ALL the nations remaining on the earth during Jesus rule WILL be keeping the Feast of Tabernacles. Notice this feast is NOT just for the nation of Israel. Let's find another…

Isa.66
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Again we find that God's Sabbath will be a requirement for ALL flesh that are here on earth during Jesus rule.

So it seems that Jesus Laws and Commandments are NOT just for the nation of Israel. They will be for ALL nations and ALL flesh during his 1000yr rule here on earth.

Now if the Lord is going to require EVERYBODY to keep the Feast of Tabernacles and His 7th day Sabbath, what about ALL of the rest of His Holy days?

Do you think He will overlook the Passover, Blowing of the Trumpets, Days of Unleavened Bread, Day of Atonement and the rest? He did say they ALL were to be observed forever!

So....we just read that Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. He will have ALL flesh to observe His sabbath and feast days. And if they do not they will be punished.

Now if Jesus is commanding all flesh to keep His sabbath and feast days...whould it be too much of a stetch to think that He would not be imposing ALL of His laws upon the nations of the earth?

Jesus will be teaching ONLY the truth for 1000 years. Do you think He will now over look those OT laws? Let's read a few of them;

Exod.21
[28] If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
[29] But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

Lev.18
[9] The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

Lev.19
[13] Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
[15] Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

Do you not think NONE of these laws of God will be enforced?

The reason I bring this up is to ask the question, "Why would Jesus NOT also enforce His dietary laws upon on all flesh?"

And if He will do so when He returns...why would He suspend them for now?



.

 

[sleepingdog]

Well you were asking an administrator about homosexuality and Im not sure whether you read the rules but theres certain places that can be discussed (per rules) and here isnt one of them

These food laws?

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

I still sorta believe the food laws can still in effect for those who weak in faith, for example if you regard some as unclean then for you it is, but its more self imposed now

He that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

So it would be a sin eating not of faith

Whereas another can be happy as a jaybird who condemneth not himself by what he approves

The weak brother (not the strong brother) in respects to foods is noted

The weak brother is basically destroyed (in conscience) over foods, this is a big deal with the weaker, it sorta lets you know where they are, and not to invite him over for pork chops (type thing)

If you do invite him over you must be sensitive to his little feelings, and walk charitably towards him, serve what his conscience allows him

I am talking about homosexuality as an example,if the food laws are done away with,are various other laws?

 

[sleepingdog]

Sleeping dog

You might want to read Romans 1:18-31

I know homosexuality is wrong,so why is one law done away with and not another?

 

[Hentenza]

I am talking about homosexuality as an example,if the food laws are done away with,are various other laws?

That is a red herring since you should be aware of the teachings about homosexuality in the NT, however, there are teachings in the NT regarding the cleansing of all foods.

 

[sleepingdog]

Curious: How strictly do you abide by Leviticus 15:16-17/Deuteronomy 23:9-11? How about Leviticus 19:19?

-CryptoLutheran

I don't own a farm...

 

[sleepingdog]

That is a red herring since you should be aware of the teachings about homosexuality in the NT, however, there are teachings in the NT regarding the cleansing of all foods.

2 Macabees Chapter 7

1 It came to pass also, that seven brethren with their mother were taken, and compelled by the king against the law to taste swine's flesh, and were tormented with scourges and whips.
2 But one of them that spake first said thus, What wouldest thou ask or learn of us? we are ready to die, rather than to transgress the laws of our fathers.
3 Then the king, being in a rage, commanded pans and caldrons to be made hot:
4 Which forthwith being heated, he commanded to cut out the tongue of him that spake first, and to cut off the utmost parts of his body, the rest of his brethren and his mother looking on.
5 Now when he was thus maimed in all his members, he commanded him being yet alive to be brought to the fire, and to be fried in the pan: and as the vapour of the pan was for a good space dispersed, they exhorted one another with the mother to die manfully, saying thus,
6 The Lord God looketh upon us, and in truth hath comfort in us, as Moses in his song, which witnessed to their faces, declared, saying, And he shall be comforted in his servants.
7 So when the first was dead after this number, they brought the second to make him a mocking stock: and when they had pulled off the skin of his head with the hair, they asked him, Wilt thou eat, before thou be punished throughout every member of thy body?
8 But he answered in his own language, and said, No. Wherefore he also received the next torment in order, as the former did.
9 And when he was at the last gasp, he said, Thou like a fury takest us out of this present life, but the King of the world shall raise us up, who have died for his laws, unto everlasting life.
10 After him was the third made a mocking stock: and when he was required, he put out his tongue, and that right soon, holding forth his hands manfully.
11 And said courageously, These I had from heaven; and for his laws I despise them; and from him I hope to receive them again.
12 Insomuch that the king, and they that were with him, marvelled at the young man's courage, for that he nothing regarded the pains.
13 Now when this man was dead also, they tormented and mangled the fourth in like manner.
14 So when he was ready to die he said thus, It is good, being put to death by men, to look for hope from God to be raised up again by him: as for thee, thou shalt have no resurrection to life.
15 Afterward they brought the fifth also, and mangled him.
16 Then looked he unto the king, and said, Thou hast power over men, thou art corruptible, thou doest what thou wilt; yet think not that our nation is forsaken of God;
17 But abide a while, and behold his great power, how he will torment thee and thy seed.
18 After him also they brought the sixth, who being ready to die said, Be not deceived without cause: for we suffer these things for ourselves, having sinned against our God: therefore marvellous things are done unto us.
19 But think not thou, that takest in hand to strive against God, that thou shalt escape unpunished.
20 But the mother was marvellous above all, and worthy of honourable memory: for when she saw her seven sons slain within the space of one day, she bare it with a good courage, because of the hope that she had in the Lord.
21 Yea, she exhorted every one of them in her own language, filled with courageous spirits; and stirring up her womanish thoughts with a manly stomach, she said unto them,
22 I cannot tell how ye came into my womb: for I neither gave you breath nor life, neither was it I that formed the members of every one of you;
23 But doubtless the Creator of the world, who formed the generation of man, and found out the beginning of all things, will also of his own mercy give you breath and life again, as ye now regard not your own selves for his laws' sake.
24 Now Antiochus, thinking himself despised, and suspecting it to be a reproachful speech, whilst the youngest was yet alive, did not only exhort him by words, but also assured him with oaths, that he would make him both a rich and a happy man, if he would turn from the laws of his fathers; and that also he would take him for his friend, and trust him with affairs.
25 But when the young man would in no case hearken unto him, the king called his mother, and exhorted her that she would counsel the young man to save his life.
26 And when he had exhorted her with many words, she promised him that she would counsel her son.
27 But she bowing herself toward him, laughing the cruel tyrant to scorn, spake in her country language on this manner; O my son, have pity upon me that bare thee nine months in my womb, and gave thee such three years, and nourished thee, and brought thee up unto this age, and endured the troubles of education.
28 I beseech thee, my son, look upon the heaven and the earth, and all that is therein, and consider that God made them of things that were not; and so was mankind made likewise.
29 Fear not this tormentor, but, being worthy of thy brethren, take thy death that I may receive thee again in mercy with thy brethren.
30 Whiles she was yet speaking these words, the young man said, Whom wait ye for? I will not obey the king's commandment: but I will obey the commandment of the law that was given unto our fathers by Moses.
31 And thou, that hast been the author of all mischief against the Hebrews, shalt not escape the hands of God.
32 For we suffer because of our sins.
33 And though the living Lord be angry with us a little while for our chastening and correction, yet shall he be at one again with his servants.
34 But thou, O godless man, and of all other most wicked, be not lifted up without a cause, nor puffed up with uncertain hopes, lifting up thy hand against the servants of God:
35 For thou hast not yet escaped the judgment of Almighty God, who seeth all things.
36 For our brethren, who now have suffered a short pain, are dead under God's covenant of everlasting life: but thou, through the judgment of God, shalt receive just punishment for thy pride.
37 But I, as my brethren, offer up my body and life for the laws of our fathers, beseeching God that he would speedily be merciful unto our nation; and that thou by torments and plagues mayest confess, that he alone is God;
38 And that in me and my brethren the wrath of the Almighty, which is justly brought upon our nation, may cease.
39 Than the king' being in a rage, handed him worse than all the rest, and took it grievously that he was mocked.
40 So this man died undefiled, and put his whole trust in the Lord.
41 Last of all after the sons the mother died.
42 Let this be enough now to have spoken concerning the idolatrous feasts, and the extreme tortures.

they preferred to die,than eat swine...
Were their deaths meaningless?

 

[Fireinfolding]

I am talking about homosexuality as an example,if the food laws are done away with,are various other laws?

I dont approve of homosexuality (per my conscience) but I certainly dont need something in letters to tell me that.

However, I do sow way more then two kinds of seeds in my garden and I wear cotton blends. But I dont build battlements on my roof top and all of that jazz

Do you?

Break one you have broken them all, do you wear anything of mixed materials?

Love your neighbour as yourself is in Leviticus too, and Jesus tells us to do that He adresses the meats for the belly.

Theres the "ye HAVE heard" BUT I SAY unto YOU parts right?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I know homosexuality is wrong,so why is one law done away with and not another?

The natural(outward) fleshy part of the law was put off, but the inward(spiritual) part remains.

Meat and drink is outside the man.

But a reprobate mind is inside the man.

Just as Jesus said, there is nothing outside of the man that goes into the man that can defile him. But it is that which is inside the man that defiles him.

 

[Fireinfolding]

The natural(outward) fleshy part of the law was put off, but the inward(spiritual) part remains.

Meat and drink is outside the man.

But a reprobate mind is inside the man.

Just as Jesus said, there is nothing outside of the man that goes into the man that can defile him. But it is that which is inside the man that defiles him.

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.


Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Amen bro

 

[Hentenza]

2 Macabees Chapter 7

1 It came to pass also, that seven brethren with their mother were taken, and compelled by the king against the law to taste swine's flesh, and were tormented with scourges and whips.
2 But one of them that spake first said thus, What wouldest thou ask or learn of us? we are ready to die, rather than to transgress the laws of our fathers.
3 Then the king, being in a rage, commanded pans and caldrons to be made hot:
4 Which forthwith being heated, he commanded to cut out the tongue of him that spake first, and to cut off the utmost parts of his body, the rest of his brethren and his mother looking on.
5 Now when he was thus maimed in all his members, he commanded him being yet alive to be brought to the fire, and to be fried in the pan: and as the vapour of the pan was for a good space dispersed, they exhorted one another with the mother to die manfully, saying thus,
6 The Lord God looketh upon us, and in truth hath comfort in us, as Moses in his song, which witnessed to their faces, declared, saying, And he shall be comforted in his servants.
7 So when the first was dead after this number, they brought the second to make him a mocking stock: and when they had pulled off the skin of his head with the hair, they asked him, Wilt thou eat, before thou be punished throughout every member of thy body?
8 But he answered in his own language, and said, No. Wherefore he also received the next torment in order, as the former did.
9 And when he was at the last gasp, he said, Thou like a fury takest us out of this present life, but the King of the world shall raise us up, who have died for his laws, unto everlasting life.
10 After him was the third made a mocking stock: and when he was required, he put out his tongue, and that right soon, holding forth his hands manfully.
11 And said courageously, These I had from heaven; and for his laws I despise them; and from him I hope to receive them again.
12 Insomuch that the king, and they that were with him, marvelled at the young man's courage, for that he nothing regarded the pains.
13 Now when this man was dead also, they tormented and mangled the fourth in like manner.
14 So when he was ready to die he said thus, It is good, being put to death by men, to look for hope from God to be raised up again by him: as for thee, thou shalt have no resurrection to life.
15 Afterward they brought the fifth also, and mangled him.
16 Then looked he unto the king, and said, Thou hast power over men, thou art corruptible, thou doest what thou wilt; yet think not that our nation is forsaken of God;
17 But abide a while, and behold his great power, how he will torment thee and thy seed.
18 After him also they brought the sixth, who being ready to die said, Be not deceived without cause: for we suffer these things for ourselves, having sinned against our God: therefore marvellous things are done unto us.
19 But think not thou, that takest in hand to strive against God, that thou shalt escape unpunished.
20 But the mother was marvellous above all, and worthy of honourable memory: for when she saw her seven sons slain within the space of one day, she bare it with a good courage, because of the hope that she had in the Lord.
21 Yea, she exhorted every one of them in her own language, filled with courageous spirits; and stirring up her womanish thoughts with a manly stomach, she said unto them,
22 I cannot tell how ye came into my womb: for I neither gave you breath nor life, neither was it I that formed the members of every one of you;
23 But doubtless the Creator of the world, who formed the generation of man, and found out the beginning of all things, will also of his own mercy give you breath and life again, as ye now regard not your own selves for his laws' sake.
24 Now Antiochus, thinking himself despised, and suspecting it to be a reproachful speech, whilst the youngest was yet alive, did not only exhort him by words, but also assured him with oaths, that he would make him both a rich and a happy man, if he would turn from the laws of his fathers; and that also he would take him for his friend, and trust him with affairs.
25 But when the young man would in no case hearken unto him, the king called his mother, and exhorted her that she would counsel the young man to save his life.
26 And when he had exhorted her with many words, she promised him that she would counsel her son.
27 But she bowing herself toward him, laughing the cruel tyrant to scorn, spake in her country language on this manner; O my son, have pity upon me that bare thee nine months in my womb, and gave thee such three years, and nourished thee, and brought thee up unto this age, and endured the troubles of education.
28 I beseech thee, my son, look upon the heaven and the earth, and all that is therein, and consider that God made them of things that were not; and so was mankind made likewise.
29 Fear not this tormentor, but, being worthy of thy brethren, take thy death that I may receive thee again in mercy with thy brethren.
30 Whiles she was yet speaking these words, the young man said, Whom wait ye for? I will not obey the king's commandment: but I will obey the commandment of the law that was given unto our fathers by Moses.
31 And thou, that hast been the author of all mischief against the Hebrews, shalt not escape the hands of God.
32 For we suffer because of our sins.
33 And though the living Lord be angry with us a little while for our chastening and correction, yet shall he be at one again with his servants.
34 But thou, O godless man, and of all other most wicked, be not lifted up without a cause, nor puffed up with uncertain hopes, lifting up thy hand against the servants of God:
35 For thou hast not yet escaped the judgment of Almighty God, who seeth all things.
36 For our brethren, who now have suffered a short pain, are dead under God's covenant of everlasting life: but thou, through the judgment of God, shalt receive just punishment for thy pride.
37 But I, as my brethren, offer up my body and life for the laws of our fathers, beseeching God that he would speedily be merciful unto our nation; and that thou by torments and plagues mayest confess, that he alone is God;
38 And that in me and my brethren the wrath of the Almighty, which is justly brought upon our nation, may cease.
39 Than the king' being in a rage, handed him worse than all the rest, and took it grievously that he was mocked.
40 So this man died undefiled, and put his whole trust in the Lord.
41 Last of all after the sons the mother died.
42 Let this be enough now to have spoken concerning the idolatrous feasts, and the extreme tortures.

they preferred to die,than eat swine...
Were their deaths meaningless?

Maccabees is part of the old testament apocrypha and its inpiration is in question. However, even if we accept its inspiration, they were still under the Mosaic law. In the New Covenant there is no commandment that teaches that the Christian is required to follow the Mosaic law. In fact, the Mosaic law including the 10 commandments were given at Mount Sanai to the Jews and have never been given to the gentiles. In the church of Christ there is no Jew nor gentile so the law was never given to us to begin with. We are Christians and we do not need to convert to Judaism to be Christian. That was decided by the apostles in the council of Jerusalem depicted in Acts 15.

Stop judaizing Christians.

 

[sleepingdog]

Maccabees is part of the old testament apocrypha and its inpiration is in question. However, even if we accept its inspiration, they were still under the Mosaic law. In the New Covenant there is no commandment that teaches that the Christian is required to follow the Mosaic law. In fact, the Mosaic law including the 10 commandments were given at Mount Sanai to the Jews and have never been given to the gentiles. In the church of Christ there is no Jew nor gentile so the law was never given to us to begin with. We are Christians and we do not need to convert to Judaism to be Christian. That was decided by the apostles in the council of Jerusalem depicted in Acts 15.

Stop judaizing Christians.

So are you saying the Ten Commandments do not apply to Christians?

Judaism was not the religion of the Bible.Are you saying that all the laws in the Pentetuch only apply to Jews and not Christians?

As for Maccabees it is part of the Apocrypha,what do you mean when you state '' its inpiration is in question''?

 

[Hentenza]

So are you saying the Ten Commandments do not apply to Christians?

No they do not. Jesus reiterated 9 of the 10 commandments which He incorporated into the two commandments given to Christians. Read the sermon on the mount and subsequent chapters of Matthew and their parallel verses in the other two synoptics.

Judaism was not the religion of the Bible.Are you saying that all the laws in the Pentetuch only apply to Jews and not Christians?

Yes. None apply to Christians. The Mosaic law was given to the Jews ONLY in Mt. Sinai. Read Exodus then find where the Mosaic law was given to the gentiles in the New Covenant (it isn't there).

As for Maccabees it is part of the Apocrypha,what do you mean when you state '' its inpiration is in question''?

The Jews do not consider it part of their canon and only a few of the churches consider it scripture but what is called apocrypha. Personally, I reject the book as scripture. It is a good read though.

 

[sleepingdog]

No they do not. Jesus reiterated 9 of the 10 commandments which He incorporated into the two commandments given to Christians. Read the sermon on the mount and subsequent chapters of Matthew and their parallel verses in the other two synoptics.



Yes. None apply to Christians. The Mosaic law was given to the Jews ONLY in Mt. Sinai. Read Exodus then find where the Mosaic law was given to the gentiles in the New Covenant (it isn't there).



The Jews do not consider it part of their canon and only a few of the churches consider it scripture but what is called apocrypha. Personally, I reject the book as scripture. It is a good read though.

Then what is the point for Christians to read the Old Testament?
If none of it applies to Christians as you imply,then,why do we read it?


The Mosaic law was not given to the Jews,it was given to Israel,do not confuse the 2!
''Jews'' does not appear in the Bible until 2 Kings 16:6.
Jacob did not have his name changed to a ''state''

You do know you can find the Apocrypha in some Bibles like the Douay?

 

[Hentenza]

Then what is the point for Christians to read the Old Testament?
If none of it applies to Christians as you imply,then,why do we read it?

Because you can not fully understand the meaning of Jesus sacrifice without it. Secondly, there are many unfulfilled prophesies in the OT that will be fulfilled during the time of the gentiles. Third, there are many fulfilled prophesies in the OT that are germaine to the NT. Forth, the OT is highly Christological which sheds quit a bit of understanding on who Jesus is. There are many more reasons that I will be happy to get into if you wish.

The Mosaic law was not given to the Jews,it was given to Israel,do not confuse the 2!
''Jews'' does not appear in the Bible until 2 Kings 16:6.
Jacob did not have his name changed to a ''state''

Semantics. There were no Jews that were not Israeli except for the proselytes. The fact still remains that the law was ONLY given to Israel not to the Christians.

You do know you can find the Apocrypha in some Bibles like the Douay?

Yes which is the Catholic bible. You can also find them, with variation, in the eastern churches such as the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox bibles.