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Featured Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by JohnB445, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    For starters, God slew the 2 sons of Aaron for breach of protocol. He slew Uzzah for similar reasons.

    Secondly, if God cares about 100 billion souls out there to be saved, then He most likely wants church to be conducted properly.

    Thirdly, even if He DOESN'T care, we still need enough prophetic revelatoin to be SURE it doesn't matter, since 100 billion souls are at stake.

    Fourthly, I've been discussing intellectual dishonesty. Precisely because there are 100 billion souls at stake, we can't, if we care about them, afford to TAKE THE RISK of building on intellectual dishonesty.
     
  2. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    I'm pretty sure I'm criticizing the building, and I'm pretty sure you know it full well.

    Third example of the silliness. Actually I wasn't the one to point this one out. I heard about it attending a Vineyard church in Florida - well known for their charismatic beliefs. I attended it for several years. I somewhat liked that particular Florida group, because it lacked a lot of the silliness seen in other charismatic churches. There was very little of the trivial-prophecy issue, for example. And one day the pastor preached a very interesting sermon. He was concerned with all the false prophesying in the church today. He said, 'Most of these prophecies follow recognizable patterns'. He made a short list of the most common ones. At the top of the list was one he called 'The Lighthouse Prophecy'. This typically happens when a guest-minister preaches at a church. All too often he will say, 'The Lord showed me that your congregatoin will be a beacon to the nations, a model for other churches to follow'. He warned, 'Don't fall for that one!'

    And you know what? He was right! Do you have any idea how many lighthouse prophecies I heard during my charismatic church-memberships, over the years? And some of those churches are DEAD !!!! Finished, shut down, cancelled, dispersed, finito. Am I to entertain seriously, then, the notion that they are serving as a beacon to the nations, that other churches are now modelling themselves after?

    How do you guys do it? How do you tolerate all that foolishness Sunday after Sunday, and never complain about it?
     
  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    perfect = complete
     
  4. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Paul used that crucial word dunamis on several occasions. First, example, he preached "by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God" (Romans 15:19).

    1Corinthians is the most charismatic epistle of the NT. He used that same term 'dunamis' in that epistle as well:

    "4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power."

    Here too, Paul doesn't place much stock in ordinary TALK - that's not how he defines effective preaching. There has to be something EMPIRICAL - an empirically evident display of power. (A few posts back, I testified to my own experience of authenticatoin during a Sunday service).

    Still not convinced? Take a hard look at what he says two chapters later:

    19 But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21 What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod of discipline, or shall I come in love and with a gentle spirit?

    That's a pretty clear reference to EMPIRICAL power. He is saying that when he arrives, in their VICINITY, THEN he will see their power, or lack thereof. That's consistent with what he says elsewhere. The crucial point is Paul's definition of Kingdom-on-Earth:

    "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of [empirical] power."

    If I am to believe the cessationist, the definition of the Kingdom has CHANGED, nay REVERSED.
    (1) Used to be, the kingdom of God was a matter of power, not of talk.
    (2) NOW, it is a matter of talk, not of power.

    That's insanity. If God wanted us to believe cessationism, He has an odd way of showing it. Evidently He's the most incompetent instructor that I've ever seen.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You need to understand we have all the early New Covenant believers had and more. Scripture is far better than tongues and prophecy that it replaced. It is the complete revelation where tongues and prophecy were only fragments.
     
  6. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    It's impossible to prove Cessationism. However, if you have been immersed (baptized) by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 2:4, Acts 11:16) then a Continuationist already has all the proof he/she needs. :)

    NOTE:
    Any scripture posted from any Book of the Bible can be opened with the exception being no scripture posted
    from the Book of Acts apparently can't be opened.
     
  7. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Except your"gifts" are not authentic when compared to the originals.
     
  8. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Yes if you keep telling me your opinions I can keep showing you weighty scriptures to the contrary, as I've been doing since I joined this thread. It's a tough call, but faced with a choice between your opinions, versus the bulk of the weight in Scripture, I think I'll go with Scripture. Call me crazy, if you will.
     
  9. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    I don't know for sure your experience, but here's my assessment of most present-day 'prophets' and prophetic utterances. There seems to be a widespread assumption (presumption) that it need not be an audible voice, it can just be a thought. This, in turn, leads to presumption (a presumption of prophecy) whenever a seemingly godly thought comes to mind (as will continually happen for any Christian daily immersed in the Scriptures and/or Christian ministry and affairs).

    It's pretty obvious this is what is happening, but charismatics have fallen into the rut of, 'Everybody's doing it, this apparently is how God wants prophecy to work today.'

    The problem would be largely alleviated if a standard of 100% certainty were honored. Simply meaning, I will be HONEST and admit, 'I'm not 100% sure that was God speaking to me' instead of saying, 'Thus saith the Lord'.

    My advice to these people: if you didn't hear an audible voice, especially if you lack 100% certainty, please don't presume your thoughts to be the voice of God, I don't care how godly or biblical they SEEM to you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  10. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Scripture is better? Really? So if you, wanting to be a well-informed Christian, had a choice between receiving:
    (A) a New Testament on which to practice exegesis, e.g. at seminary
    (B) OR, Paul's gift of inspiration whereby he WROTE much of that New Testament? Better yet, CHRIST'S gift of inspiration as experienced during the Incarnation?

    You'd choose A, presuming exegesis to be the more reliable avenue to sound doctrine? Is that correct?

    Christ wasn't confused on this issue. That's why He never went to seminary.
     
  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Is this biblical? (from post #273)
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    So, the question was, "Is scripture perfect?"
    You are defining "perfect" as complete.
    So, the question as defined: Is scripture complete?
    Like I asked earlier, is there room for faith?
    If so, it would have to be incomplete.

    I think the perfect to come would be Christ, not the scriptures.
    The scriptures are neither perfect nor complete. IMHO
    I suppose that makes me a heretic on some level.
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I never hear anyone claim "Thus saith the Lord."

    And I wouldn't claim it even with the 100 percent certain of a loud voice. (of God)
    I will testify what God spoke to me, but will not lay that on someone else.

    If I did that it would be like binding the person to my word is if it was God's word.
    Even if it is God's word, I want them to be free with what they do with it.

    If it resonates with them fine, if not that's fine too. They may not put the puzzle together until a later time. Someone else may give them a piece before they can see where the piece I gave them goes.
     
  14. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Never huh? Even the average pastor, in my experience, will say things like, 'The Lord spoke to me and said...' Not to mention those claiming to prophesy.

    Hope you didn't think I was referring specifically to the old-English phraseology. Yes, probably no one speaks like that anymore.
     
  15. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    (Not much time right now). The alternatives are self-contradicting as I have shown.
    To persist in a contradiction is certainly NOT biblical. Unless you think the Bible is a bunch of contradictions.

    Still waiting for you to address the charge of logical contradiction that I raised to you in regard to 273. I hope you're not deflecting.

    I'm honestly not aware of ever deflecting. I don't know of ANY logical problems in my theology. There are indeed some LOGISTICAL issues that might raise an eyebrow or two, but no logical CONTRADICTIONS that I'm aware of.

    And I DID demonstrate that it was biblical. I made the case that Abraham's decision seems quite impossible to make sense of without authoritative conscience. I also said the Inward Witness is equally impossible to make sense of, otherwise. We could discuss that more, but seems to me the charge of a BLATANT LOGICAL CONTRADICTION is more pressing.
     
  16. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Nothing to do with my standards, really. Paul's standards. Read 1cor 9 - he tried to save as many as possible. So, like Paul, we need to try to choose a course that helps to save as many of those 100 billion as possible. This is obvious, and so when I see these superficial 'objections' to my positoin, it feels like mere deflection.
     
  17. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I guess you misunderstood me. Maybe I wasn't clear.
    I don't have a problem with someone testifying that the Lord spoke to them.
    But I would never say to someone that the Lord told me to tell them this or that.
    That's WAY too heavy-handed. How can a person weigh what was said when you play the "God card"?
    If they don't accept what you said they are rejecting God's word to them. Not good!
    Even if it was true, they may not be ready for it.
    I wouldn't do that unless it was part of the directive God gave to me.
    And even then I would do it a graciously and humbly as possible. (apologetically even)
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I'm not sure what you mean by that. And am probably not too concerned.
    Are you claiming a cognitive dissonance on my part? I think we all live with that to some degree. You know you should belong to a church right? But you can't do it. But you are happy to point a finger at me?
     
  19. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    You objected to authoritative conscience. I replied, well then, refute the example given in post 273, namely where a man tells his son to clean his room 7 days a week. I've given that challenge on multiple threads over the years, and never seen a rebuttal, not even an attempted one.
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    It's an illustration. What's to refute?
    I already said your premise is false. That seems like a rebuttal to me.
     
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