Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

JAL

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Why do you think that God cares (or is offended by) how we "run" a church?
Does it matter to God as much as it matters to you?
Jesus said He would build His church. Are you dissatisfied with how he is doing it?
Seems so. Who are you really criticizing here? The building or the builder? (maybe both)
For starters, God slew the 2 sons of Aaron for breach of protocol. He slew Uzzah for similar reasons.

Secondly, if God cares about 100 billion souls out there to be saved, then He most likely wants church to be conducted properly.

Thirdly, even if He DOESN'T care, we still need enough prophetic revelatoin to be SURE it doesn't matter, since 100 billion souls are at stake.

Fourthly, I've been discussing intellectual dishonesty. Precisely because there are 100 billion souls at stake, we can't, if we care about them, afford to TAKE THE RISK of building on intellectual dishonesty.
 
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JAL

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Why do you think that God cares (or is offended by) how we "run" a church?
Does it matter to God as much as it matters to you?
Jesus said He would build His church. Are you dissatisfied with how he is doing it?
Seems so. Who are you really criticizing here? The building or the builder? (maybe both)
I'm pretty sure I'm criticizing the building, and I'm pretty sure you know it full well.

Third example of the silliness. Actually I wasn't the one to point this one out. I heard about it attending a Vineyard church in Florida - well known for their charismatic beliefs. I attended it for several years. I somewhat liked that particular Florida group, because it lacked a lot of the silliness seen in other charismatic churches. There was very little of the trivial-prophecy issue, for example. And one day the pastor preached a very interesting sermon. He was concerned with all the false prophesying in the church today. He said, 'Most of these prophecies follow recognizable patterns'. He made a short list of the most common ones. At the top of the list was one he called 'The Lighthouse Prophecy'. This typically happens when a guest-minister preaches at a church. All too often he will say, 'The Lord showed me that your congregatoin will be a beacon to the nations, a model for other churches to follow'. He warned, 'Don't fall for that one!'

And you know what? He was right! Do you have any idea how many lighthouse prophecies I heard during my charismatic church-memberships, over the years? And some of those churches are DEAD !!!! Finished, shut down, cancelled, dispersed, finito. Am I to entertain seriously, then, the notion that they are serving as a beacon to the nations, that other churches are now modelling themselves after?

How do you guys do it? How do you tolerate all that foolishness Sunday after Sunday, and never complain about it?
 
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JAL

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I believe Paul teaches indirectly that all prophets today are false. Scripture having replaced the office. But we have the early NT prophecies now as scripture.
Paul used that crucial word dunamis on several occasions. First, example, he preached "by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God" (Romans 15:19).

1Corinthians is the most charismatic epistle of the NT. He used that same term 'dunamis' in that epistle as well:

"4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power."

Here too, Paul doesn't place much stock in ordinary TALK - that's not how he defines effective preaching. There has to be something EMPIRICAL - an empirically evident display of power. (A few posts back, I testified to my own experience of authenticatoin during a Sunday service).

Still not convinced? Take a hard look at what he says two chapters later:

19 But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21 What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod of discipline, or shall I come in love and with a gentle spirit?

That's a pretty clear reference to EMPIRICAL power. He is saying that when he arrives, in their VICINITY, THEN he will see their power, or lack thereof. That's consistent with what he says elsewhere. The crucial point is Paul's definition of Kingdom-on-Earth:

"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of [empirical] power."

If I am to believe the cessationist, the definition of the Kingdom has CHANGED, nay REVERSED.
(1) Used to be, the kingdom of God was a matter of power, not of talk.
(2) NOW, it is a matter of talk, not of power.

That's insanity. If God wanted us to believe cessationism, He has an odd way of showing it. Evidently He's the most incompetent instructor that I've ever seen.
 
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Dave L

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Paul used that crucial word dunamis on several occasions. First, example, he preached "by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God" (Romans 15:19).

1Corinthians is the most charismatic epistle of the NT. He used that same term 'dunamis' in that epistle as well:

"4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power."

Here too, Paul doesn't place much stock in ordinary TALK - that's not how he defines effective preaching. There has to be something EMPIRICAL - an empirically evident display of power. (A few posts back, I testified to my own experience of authenticatoin during a Sunday service).

Still not convinced? Take a hard look at what he says two chapters later:

19 But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21 What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod of discipline, or shall I come in love and with a gentle spirit?

That's a pretty clear reference to EMPIRICAL power. He is saying that when he arrives, in their VICINITY, THEN he will see their power, or lack thereof. That's consistent with what he says elsewhere. The crucial point is Paul's definition of Kingdom-on-Earth:

"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of [empirical] power."

If I am to believe the cessationist, the definition of the Kingdom has CHANGED, nay REVERSED.
(1) Used to be, the kingdom of heaven was a matter of power, not of talk.
(2) NOW, it is a matter of talk, not of power.

That's insanity. If God wanted us to believe cessationism, He has an odd way of showing it. Evidently He's the most incompetent instructor that I've ever seen.
You need to understand we have all the early New Covenant believers had and more. Scripture is far better than tongues and prophecy that it replaced. It is the complete revelation where tongues and prophecy were only fragments.
 
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AbbaLove

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Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?
It's impossible to prove Cessationism. However, if you have been immersed (baptized) by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 2:4, Acts 11:16) then a Continuationist already has all the proof he/she needs. :)

NOTE:
Any scripture posted from any Book of the Bible can be opened with the exception being no scripture posted
from the Book of Acts apparently can't be opened.
 
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Dave L

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It's impossible to prove Cessationism. However, if you have been immersed (baptized) by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 2:4, Acts 11:16) then a Continuationist already has all the proof he/she needs. :)

NOTE:
Any scripture posted from any Book of the Bible can be opened with the exception being no scripture posted
from the Book of Acts apparently can't be opened.
Except your"gifts" are not authentic when compared to the originals.
 
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JAL

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You need to understand we have all the early New Covenant believers had and more. Scripture is far better than tongues and prophecy that it replaced. It is the complete revelation where tongues and prophecy were only fragments.
Yes if you keep telling me your opinions I can keep showing you weighty scriptures to the contrary, as I've been doing since I joined this thread. It's a tough call, but faced with a choice between your opinions, versus the bulk of the weight in Scripture, I think I'll go with Scripture. Call me crazy, if you will.
 
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JAL

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That's exactly how prophecy works today. (Except for the "loud voice" kind.)
It's a puzzle piece. The prophet usually has no idea what it means.
(Typically delivered apologetically) It is only meaningful to the recipient.

I don't have the "gift" of prophecy, but I do get the "loud voice" at times.
It comes as a clear directive. Usually a, "Go talk to that person."
The message for the person comes to me when I (in obedience) talk to them.
Usually something obvious, not an earth-shaking revelation.
Typically they need prayer for something.

God directs me to pray with complete strangers out in public, and He has
gifted me to be able to start a conversation with someone I have never met.
Not sure which gift that is. I think the list in 1 Cor.12 is incomplete.
It drives my wife crazy. I can make friends in the checkout lane at the store.
She has literally turned to me and said, "I can't take you anywhere anymore." lol
I don't know for sure your experience, but here's my assessment of most present-day 'prophets' and prophetic utterances. There seems to be a widespread assumption (presumption) that it need not be an audible voice, it can just be a thought. This, in turn, leads to presumption (a presumption of prophecy) whenever a seemingly godly thought comes to mind (as will continually happen for any Christian daily immersed in the Scriptures and/or Christian ministry and affairs).

It's pretty obvious this is what is happening, but charismatics have fallen into the rut of, 'Everybody's doing it, this apparently is how God wants prophecy to work today.'

The problem would be largely alleviated if a standard of 100% certainty were honored. Simply meaning, I will be HONEST and admit, 'I'm not 100% sure that was God speaking to me' instead of saying, 'Thus saith the Lord'.

My advice to these people: if you didn't hear an audible voice, especially if you lack 100% certainty, please don't presume your thoughts to be the voice of God, I don't care how godly or biblical they SEEM to you.
 
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JAL

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You need to understand we have all the early New Covenant believers had and more. Scripture is far better than tongues and prophecy that it replaced. It is the complete revelation where tongues and prophecy were only fragments.
Scripture is better? Really? So if you, wanting to be a well-informed Christian, had a choice between receiving:
(A) a New Testament on which to practice exegesis, e.g. at seminary
(B) OR, Paul's gift of inspiration whereby he WROTE much of that New Testament? Better yet, CHRIST'S gift of inspiration as experienced during the Incarnation?

You'd choose A, presuming exegesis to be the more reliable avenue to sound doctrine? Is that correct?

Christ wasn't confused on this issue. That's why He never went to seminary.
 
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Saint Steven

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perfect = complete
So, the question was, "Is scripture perfect?"
You are defining "perfect" as complete.
So, the question as defined: Is scripture complete?
Like I asked earlier, is there room for faith?
If so, it would have to be incomplete.

I think the perfect to come would be Christ, not the scriptures.
The scriptures are neither perfect nor complete. IMHO
I suppose that makes me a heretic on some level.
 
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Saint Steven

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The problem would be largely alleviated if a standard of 100% certainty were honored. Simply meaning, I will be HONEST and admit, 'I'm not 100% sure that was God speaking to me' instead of saying, 'Thus saith the Lord'.
I never hear anyone claim "Thus saith the Lord."

And I wouldn't claim it even with the 100 percent certain of a loud voice. (of God)
I will testify what God spoke to me, but will not lay that on someone else.

If I did that it would be like binding the person to my word is if it was God's word.
Even if it is God's word, I want them to be free with what they do with it.

If it resonates with them fine, if not that's fine too. They may not put the puzzle together until a later time. Someone else may give them a piece before they can see where the piece I gave them goes.
 
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JAL

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I never hear anyone claim "Thus saith the Lord."

And I wouldn't claim it even with the 100 percent certain of a loud voice. (of God)
I will testify what God spoke to me, but will not lay that on someone else.

If I did that it would be like binding the person to my word is if it was God's word.
Even if it is God's word, I want them to be free with what they do with it.

If it resonates with them fine, if not that's fine too. They may not put the puzzle together until a later time. Someone else may give them a piece before they can see where the piece I gave them goes.
Never huh? Even the average pastor, in my experience, will say things like, 'The Lord spoke to me and said...' Not to mention those claiming to prophesy.

Hope you didn't think I was referring specifically to the old-English phraseology. Yes, probably no one speaks like that anymore.
 
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JAL

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Is this biblical? (from post #273)
(Not much time right now). The alternatives are self-contradicting as I have shown.
To persist in a contradiction is certainly NOT biblical. Unless you think the Bible is a bunch of contradictions.

Still waiting for you to address the charge of logical contradiction that I raised to you in regard to 273. I hope you're not deflecting.

I'm honestly not aware of ever deflecting. I don't know of ANY logical problems in my theology. There are indeed some LOGISTICAL issues that might raise an eyebrow or two, but no logical CONTRADICTIONS that I'm aware of.

And I DID demonstrate that it was biblical. I made the case that Abraham's decision seems quite impossible to make sense of without authoritative conscience. I also said the Inward Witness is equally impossible to make sense of, otherwise. We could discuss that more, but seems to me the charge of a BLATANT LOGICAL CONTRADICTION is more pressing.
 
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JAL

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If you expect the church to meet your standards, you will NEVER be happy with church.
Nothing to do with my standards, really. Paul's standards. Read 1cor 9 - he tried to save as many as possible. So, like Paul, we need to try to choose a course that helps to save as many of those 100 billion as possible. This is obvious, and so when I see these superficial 'objections' to my positoin, it feels like mere deflection.
 
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Saint Steven

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Never huh? Even the average pastor, in my experience, will say things like, 'The Lord spoke to me and said...' Not to mention those claiming to prophesy.

Hope you didn't think I was referring specifically to the old-English phraseology. Yes, probably no one speaks like that anymore.
I guess you misunderstood me. Maybe I wasn't clear.
I don't have a problem with someone testifying that the Lord spoke to them.
But I would never say to someone that the Lord told me to tell them this or that.
That's WAY too heavy-handed. How can a person weigh what was said when you play the "God card"?
If they don't accept what you said they are rejecting God's word to them. Not good!
Even if it was true, they may not be ready for it.
I wouldn't do that unless it was part of the directive God gave to me.
And even then I would do it a graciously and humbly as possible. (apologetically even)
 
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Saint Steven

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Still waiting for you to address the charge of logical contradiction that I raised to you in regard to 273. I hope you're not deflecting.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. And am probably not too concerned.
Are you claiming a cognitive dissonance on my part? I think we all live with that to some degree. You know you should belong to a church right? But you can't do it. But you are happy to point a finger at me?
 
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JAL

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I'm not sure what you mean by that. And am probably not too concerned.
Are you claiming a cognitive dissonance on my part? I think we all live with that to some degree. You know you should belong to a church right? But you can't do it. But you are happy to point a finger at me?
You objected to authoritative conscience. I replied, well then, refute the example given in post 273, namely where a man tells his son to clean his room 7 days a week. I've given that challenge on multiple threads over the years, and never seen a rebuttal, not even an attempted one.
 
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Saint Steven

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You objected to authoritative conscience. I replied, well then, refute the example given in post 273, namely where a man tells his son to clean his room 7 days a week. I've given that challenge on multiple threads over the years, and never seen a rebuttal, not even an attempted one.
It's an illustration. What's to refute?
I already said your premise is false. That seems like a rebuttal to me.
 
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