Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

JAL

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I think this is why believers in smaller churches are super-gifted. (multiple giftings) There are less believers to distribute the gifts to.
Personally I don't think anyone is super-gifted today. I honestly don't see a large quantity of convincingly genuine giftings in today's charismatic movement. For example a typical 'prophecy' goes like this, 'God told me that someone in the audience is having stomach problems, and should come down to the altar for prayer.' For an audience of 25 or more people, that's not really a prophecy. It's a statistically inevitable fact. Prophecy is supposed to glorify God. Therefore:
(1) If God is going to make such a trivial statement, He'd likely authenticate it at 100% certainty (as I explained in post 273).
(2) Alternatively, He could raise someone's level of certainty by revealing something non-trivial, i.e. a person's inner thoughts (see 1Cor 14:24-25).

Actually I think I experienced somewhat of a real authentication once, during my 12 years of regular church-attendance (can't really take it anymore). I'll never forget it. A man was ministering in church, strumming some tunes on his guitar and, intermittently, reading a verse or two from Scripture. Suddenly I almost fell out of my seat. I suddenly REALIZED (or at least felt VERY certain) that God was speaking to me directly. I was somewhat frightened, essentially in shock. I looked around the room to see if anyone else had the same reaction, but most still had their heads bowed in prayer.

Understand, it wasn't the CONTENT of the message. It wasn't one of those things like, 'Wow, that Scripture really spoke to me today." Rather, the authentication happened when he opened his mouth to read the verse, on the opening syllables, long BEFORE I actually apprehended the MEANING of the verse. It was an encouraging verse, but in my depression at that time it would ordinarily have had little positive effect. The difference here, of course, was the sudden realizatoin that God HIMSELF was THERE AND THEN speaking that verse directly to me. As Paul said, "The one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort" (1Cor 14:3).

But I digress. While it breaks my heart to disagree with a fellow charismatic such as yourself, I don't think I should sugar-coat my opinion. Today's charismatic movement seems symptomatic of the church being largely off-track for the last 2,000 years. It's not the real deal, for the most part, from what I can tell. And it's not likely going to improve if every charismatic keeps insisting that it really IS the real deal.

I also have some theological objections, particularly to the Pentecostal 'baptism of the holy Spirit'. Those who have indeed received an outpouring to speak in tongues (and I'm convinced that many Pentecostals received no such thing) presume it to be the same thing received on Pentecost. Pentecost was prophecy, not tongues, as I outlined in an earlier post. Secondly, I see no right or basis for presuming that ONE such outpouring is enough. The Spirit fell on Samson again and again (every time he needed supernatural strength). That same Spirit fell upon the prophets again and again (every time they needed to declare a message to an audience). There are metaphysical reasons for this, which would make for another (long) post.

In a nutshell,I distinguish between two kinds of anointings (two senses of being 'filled with the Spirit')
(1) An abiding, sanctifying fullness for holiness. But like a smoke filled container, even here more fillings are always needed, because we will never be 100% full (perfect) until the next life.
(2) A repeating-anointing (charismatic) that abides for (typically) a short session of healing, prophecy, or whatever (I already mentioned Samson). Example, 'And the power of the Lord was with Jesus to heal the sick' (Luke 5:17).

Toward the end of the last century, 2 scholarly authors wrote about the the (potential) prophethood of all believers. Many have heard of Stronstad, the other was James Shelton, his book entitled, 'Mighty in Word and Deed: The role of the Holy Spirit in Luke-Acts'.

Shelton argues convincingly that the NT prophet is identical to the OT prophet and that, as a result, a charismatic anointing is transitory (it lasts only for one charismatic session). Therefore its frequency of return can depend on factors such as prayer, God's mercy and favor with the people, etc.

My point: The Pentecostal doctrine of the 'baptism of the Spirit' is one of the most CATASTROPHIC doctrines in church history, because it leads people to remain complacent having received only ONE such visitation of the Holy Spirit, when in fact our ENTIRE SUCCESS is predicated upon asking God for MORE outpourings (essentially an askance for revival). Luke 11:13 is in the context of Christ teaching His disciples how to pray DAILY.
 
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Saint Steven

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People with fallible revelations need to be HONEST about it. Instead of saying, 'Thus saith the Lord', or, 'The Lord told me the following', they should say, 'I'm really not 100% sure about this, but I THINK the Lord is telling me the following. '
That's exactly how prophecy works today. (Except for the "loud voice" kind.)
It's a puzzle piece. The prophet usually has no idea what it means.
(Typically delivered apologetically) It is only meaningful to the recipient.

I don't have the "gift" of prophecy, but I do get the "loud voice" at times.
It comes as a clear directive. Usually a, "Go talk to that person."
The message for the person comes to me when I (in obedience) talk to them.
Usually something obvious, not an earth-shaking revelation.
Typically they need prayer for something.

God directs me to pray with complete strangers out in public, and He has
gifted me to be able to start a conversation with someone I have never met.
Not sure which gift that is. I think the list in 1 Cor.12 is incomplete.
It drives my wife crazy. I can make friends in the checkout lane at the store.
She has literally turned to me and said, "I can't take you anywhere anymore." lol
 
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Saint Steven

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Personally I don't think anyone is super-gifted today. I honestly don't see a large quantity of convincingly genuine giftings in today's charismatic movement. For example a typical 'prophecy' goes like this, 'God told me that someone in the audience is having stomach problems, and should come down to the altar for prayer.' For an audience of 25 or more people, that's not really a prophecy. It's a statistically inevitable fact.
You might feel differently if you were the person with the stomach problems.

Here are the statistics I prefer.
100 percent of the people we don't pray for don't get healed.
 
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Saint Steven

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But I digress. While it breaks my heart to disagree with a fellow charismatic such as yourself, I don't think I should sugar-coat my opinion.
You have a right to your opinion, and we need to hear it. Thanks for sharing.
 
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Dave L

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I strongly agree with you on this point.

On the other hand, some take it too far. They don't accept the concept of fallible revelation. While God, typically, fully authenticated the message both to the prophet and to his audience, as I defined authentication at post 273, that is, at the level of 100% certainty, I do not believe that EVERY thought, or even every divine message, in a prophet's mind was known at full certainty, especially for newbie prophets. To put it in layman's terms, in some cases God's voice was less than perfectly loud and clear.

Take David for example. In some cases:
(1) He inquired of the Lord as to whether he should go up and fight the Philistines.
(2) The divine voice responded, Yes.
(3) Later, David inquired again.
Why the 2nd inquiry? Obviously because he didn't get 100% certainty the first time, or had it and then lost it. This put him in a state of potentially fallible revelation.

People with fallible revelations need to be HONEST about it. Instead of saying, 'Thus saith the Lord', or, 'The Lord told me the following', they should say, 'I'm really not 100% sure about this, but I THINK the Lord is telling me the following. '
I believe Paul teaches indirectly that all prophets today are false. Scripture having replaced the office. But we have the early NT prophecies now as scripture.
 
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Saint Steven

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Actually I think I experienced somewhat of a real authentication once, during my 12 years of regular church-attendance (can't really take it anymore). I'll never forget it. A man was ministering in church, strumming some tunes on his guitar and, intermittently, reading a verse or two from Scripture. Suddenly I almost fell out of my seat. I suddenly REALIZED (or at least felt VERY certain) that God was speaking to me directly. I was somewhat frightened, essentially in shock. I looked around the room to see if anyone else had the same reaction, but most still had their heads bowed in prayer.

Understand, it wasn't the CONTENT of the message. It wasn't one of those things like, 'Wow, that Scripture really spoke to me today." Rather, the authentication happened when he opened his mouth to read the verse, on the opening syllables, long BEFORE I actually apprehended the MEANING of the verse. It was an encouraging verse, but in my depression at that time it would ordinarily have had little positive effect. The difference here, of course, was the sudden realizatoin that God HIMSELF was THERE AND THEN speaking that verse directly to me. As Paul said, "The one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort" (1Cor 14:3).
There it is.

Nothing to do specifically with what you said, but the only real difference between an agnostic and a Christian is their conclusion. In a sense they agree on many points, except in their conclusion. Both the agnostic and the Christian agree that it takes a leap of faith to believe what the Bible says to be true. But the agnostic rejects the leap of faith, whereas the Christian embraces the leap of faith.

This used to bother me. I wanted to be able to "argue" the agnostic into the kingdom. But ultimately it requires faith. My personal revelation was that, it wouldn't be "faith" without it. (faith) Which should have been more obvious to me initially. lol

More specifically to what you said. You have had a personal experience that qualifies what God can do through the Holy Spirit. But based on the rest of your "study and research", you have drawn conclusions that it is not valid. Thus supplanting your own personal testimony. And worse than that, making you an enemy toward those who operate in the gifts today, and even a dissuader toward those who may be leaning that direction. Thus preventing someone from "desiring the gifts". This seems tragic to me.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to beat you up, so as to get you to do what I want you to do. I just wanted to challenge your thinking, as you have challenged mine.
 
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Saint Steven

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I honestly don't see a large quantity of convincingly genuine giftings in today's charismatic movement.
Mark 6:3-6
Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” 5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 He was amazed at their lack of faith. ...
 
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Saint Steven

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I believe Paul teaches indirectly that all prophets today are false. Scripture having replaced the office. But we have the early NT prophecies now as scripture.
Indirectly? Should we bank on "indirectly"?
What do we do with these "directly" passages below?

Have we attained "to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" yet? (Eph.4:11)
Christ gave us apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to get there. (Eph.4:11) And placed in the church apostles, prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, gifts of healing, gifts of helping, gifts of guidance, and different kinds of tongues. (1Cor.12:28)

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11-13
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
 
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Dave L

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Indirectly? Should we bank on "indirectly"?
What do we do with these "directly" passages below?

Have we attained "to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" yet? (Eph.4:11)
Christ gave us apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to get there. (Eph.4:11) And placed in the church apostles, prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, gifts of healing, gifts of helping, gifts of guidance, and different kinds of tongues. (1Cor.12:28)

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11-13
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
If Paul teaches cessation, which I believe he does, then he indirectly teaches all prophecy from that time on is false.
 
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Saint Steven

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If Paul teaches cessation, which I believe he does, then he indirectly teaches all prophecy from that time on is false.
The claimed Cessationism (time frame) is indirect as well, is it not?
How direct is the "if" and "when"?
 
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JAL

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Mark 6:3-6
Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” 5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 He was amazed at their lack of faith. ...
Sure, that MIGHT be situation. I occasionally hedge my strong assertions with the disclaimer that I'm merely opining. But it's a combination of issues.
(1) Several of the doctrines taught over the last 2,000 years don't seem to make a lot of sense. And here the main issue is NOT whether they are right or wrong (could be that my views are in the wrong), but the unwillingness to admit how problemmatical they are. As an analogy, suppose I walk into a church where the preacher claims that the earth is flat. He MIGHT be correct, but given the CURRENTLY AVAILABLE DATA, he should at least acknowledge how problemmatical that claim is. If not, I consider him cultic (no different than a Scientologist, or Luke Skywalker, who makes unwarranted claims about 'the force within all things).
(2) I've seen too much apparent silliness to give much credence to your application of that verse. Here's an example. You go up to the altar for prayer. The preacher who lays hands on you pushes on your forehead prompting you to fall backwards into the arms of the ministers waiting to catch you. Does anyone see what is WRONG with this picture? Charismatics NEVER talk about how incredibly insulting it is, to God, that 'loving, kind' ministers are placed behind us to 'protect' us from an evil God who is likely to dash us to the ground shattering our bones into pieces. Typically a Christian walking up to the altar is the prodigal son returning to his Father. According to Christ's version of that story, is THAT how the father treated his son?

And nobody talks about this? In twelve years of attending various charismatic churches, this problem was never mentioned. Not once. And you want me to entertain seriously the (trivial-sounding) 'prophecies' enunciated by these people even when I can't authenticate them? If so, you don't realize how much you're asking of me.

Second example of the silliness. The pastor asks the church to lay hands on, and pray for, everyone in the congregation who has not yet spoken in tongues. Fine. No objections there. But the people gathered around me keep insisting, as they pray, 'Believe you've received it, start speaking it out in faith.' You try protesting, but they remain insistent. Not wanting to be a rebel or make a scene, you decide to humor them - just once. So you open your mouth uttering a few syllables of gibberish. Immediately they exclaim, 'That's it !!! You've got the gift! Hallelujah!'
 
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Dave L

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The claimed Cessationism (time frame) is indirect as well, is it not?
How direct is the "if" and "when"?
Is scripture perfect? Does it give a complete picture where tongues and prophecy were piecemeal? Did Paul tell his listeners to come behind in no gift waiting for the Revelation of Jesus Christ? Did John pen The Revelation of Jesus Christ? Did Paul say edification comes from knowing what is being said? Were original tongue speakers edified while speaking in tongues? Meaning they knew what they were saying, being edified by it? Do today's tongue speakers know what they are saying? Did Paul say tongues and prophecy would cease when the perfect came? Is scripture perfect? ...???
 
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JAL

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There it is.

Nothing to do specifically with what you said, but the only real difference between an agnostic and a Christian is their conclusion. In a sense they agree on many points, except in their conclusion. Both the agnostic and the Christian agree that it takes a leap of faith to believe what the Bible says to be true. But the agnostic rejects the leap of faith, whereas the Christian embraces the leap of faith.

This used to bother me. I wanted to be able to "argue" the agnostic into the kingdom. But ultimately it requires faith. My personal revelation was that, it wouldn't be "faith" without it. (faith) Which should have been more obvious to me initially. lol
You're speaking of partially blind faith as being a good thing, a notion inherently problemmatical. If you don't believe it's a problem, just do something similar to what Peter did. Go up to a high roof, and step out on faith to walk on air, even as Peter stepped out to walk on water. Just before you hit the ground, hopefully it will occur to you that Peter did NOT step out on blind faith. He stepped out on Voice-based authentication (a concept I discussed at post 273), having prayed for such authentication FIRST, before stepping out.

This kind of irrational thinking is exactly the sort of silliness (in my opinion foolishness) plaguing the church for the last 2,000 years. Again, if you don't think it's foolish, step out on the air.

More specifically to what you said. You have had a personal experience that qualifies what God can do through the Holy Spirit.
You seem to be stooping to pejorative descriptions of my posts in vague and unwarranted ways. In what sense did I say THAT?

But based on the rest of your "study and research", you have drawn conclusions that it is not valid. Thus supplanting your own personal testimony.
How does that contradict my personal testimony? I boasted only ONE validated charismatic church-experience in 12 years, CONFIRMING my claim that, 'FOR THE MOST PART' (my exact words, as you recall), there doesn't SEEM to be much authentic gifting today. Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm referring to PAUL'S standards of gifting, not YOUR standards. Meaning, modern charismatics purport to have recaptured early-church experience, but such a claim defies credulity. How many dead people have you seen raised?

And worse than that, making you an enemy toward those who operate in the gifts today, and even a dissuader toward those who may be leaning that direction. Thus preventing someone from "desiring the gifts". This seems tragic to me.
Dissuader of the gifts? I've done nothing but argue FOR the primacy of the gifts on this thread. And I'm one of the few people on planet earth, or in church history, acknowledging Paul's definition of spiritual maturity as giftedness.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to beat you up, so as to get you to do what I want you to do. I just wanted to challenge your thinking, as you have challenged mine.
I don't mind someone challenging my views. Long as the arguments are clearly cogent and reasonable.
 
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JAL

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You might feel differently if you were the person with the stomach problems.
No, in fact it's precisely my own health issues contributing to my frustration with the charismatic movement. It's not just that I WANT the real thing, as opposed to a counterfeit, it's in fact that I NEED the real thing,for my own health, welfare, and survival. As long as we keep playing man-made religion - shoving our religion down God's throat - we are not likely to see much of the real thing.

Am I saying that I know how to run a church? No, I'm saying that NONE OF US DO. So let's all stop pretending that we DO know. Otherwise we are building on a platform of intellectual dishonesty and, guess what - we'll likely never see much of the real thing. THAT'S the real tragedy.

First and foremost, we need REAL prophecy - REAL direct revelation - because we need God to TEACH us how to properly run a church. Otherwise we'll keep conducting services offensive to Him (like having ministers standing behind us to catch us if we fall).

In one church I attended, the pastor insisted on a choir. He PRETENDED to KNOW it was the will of God to have a choir. I don't think he knew that for sure, and I don't see much evidence of choirs in the NT. As far as I can tell, he was just shoving man-made religion down God's throat. That's the norm today.

Others insist it is NOT God's will to have a choir. But they don't know that for sure either, so they too are just shoving man-made religion down God's throat.


Here are the statistics I prefer.
100 percent of the people we don't pray for don't get healed.
Who's advising NOT to pray for people? Certainly not I. But are they more likely to get healed:
(1) Praying under false pretenses such as prophesying-in-presumption?
(2) Or praying with full integrity devoid of any intellectual dishonesty?
 
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Saint Steven

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How did Abraham authenticate the voice? Simple. Conscience. He realized he would be unable to disobey it in good conscience. The following statements are false:
(1) God is my authority
(2) The Bible is my authority
(3) Tradition is my authority.
The truth is rather:
(4) Conscience is my only authority (defined as a feeling of certainty as to what is right and wrong).

God honors the authority of conscience because anything less is evil and unjust.
Not so sure about this.
It seems that the conscience cannot always be trusted.
Nor can teachings from those with a seared conscience.

1 Timothy 4:1-2
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What's more, I don't believe Abraham relied solely on his conscience.
God told him to go and he went, knowing not where he was going exactly.
Heading for a land that God would show him, with open desert in every direction.
God spoke to him individually and clearly. This is not a function of our conscience.
 
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And nobody talks about this? In twelve years of attending various charismatic churches, this problem was never mentioned. Not once. And you want me to entertain seriously the (trivial-sounding) 'prophecies' enunciated by these people even when I can't authenticate them? If so, you don't realize how much you're asking of me.
Are you a part of the problem, or a part of the solution?
I agree, these things should be talked about.
 
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Saint Steven

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You seem to be stooping to pejorative descriptions of my posts in vague and unwarranted ways. In what sense did I say THAT?
That was my take on your personal testimony. Are you now saying it was meaningless? I thought you testified that God was speaking to you directly through scripture readings. Am I mistaken? Please correct me.
 
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Saint Steven

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First and foremost, we need REAL prophecy - REAL direct revelation - because we need God to TEACH us how to properly run a church.
Why do you think that God cares (or is offended by) how we "run" a church?
Does it matter to God as much as it matters to you?
Jesus said He would build His church. Are you dissatisfied with how he is doing it?
Seems so. Who are you really criticizing here? The building or the builder? (maybe both)
 
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Not so sure about this.
It seems that the conscience cannot always be trusted.
This is what I get in debates, invariably. I see people disagreeing with my CONCLUSIONS, but unwilling to face my ARGUMENTS. I gave a clear example of the inescapability of the conscience-principle in post 273, when I talked about the son asked to clean his room 7 days of week. Refute THAT example, for starters, and then MAYBE we'll be ready to talk about your differing CONCLUSIONS.

Until you do, you're faced with a logical contradiction in your reluctance to endorse authoritative conscience.
Nor can teachings from those with a seared conscience.

1 Timothy 4:1-2
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What's more, I don't believe Abraham relied solely on his conscience.
God told him to go and he went, knowing not where he was going exactly.
Heading for a land that God would show him, with open desert in every direction.
God spoke to him individually and clearly. This is not a function of our conscience.
I don't care what you THINK is the right interpretatoin of a passage - if you are still stranded in a logical contradiction, it's most reasonable to assume that your interpretation is incorrect. Resolve the contradicion first, and THEN we can talk more about such passages.
 
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