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Featured Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by JohnB445, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. JohnB445

    JohnB445 Well-Known Member

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    knowledgable Pentecostals and Charismatics/ other denominations would point out that there are many counterfeits out there masking the real gift.

    usually, the Cessationist will use the worst examples out there to rest their case, while the Constitutionalist will point out that the evidence they showed, only showed the counterfeit version of the gift and not the genuine real gift of the Holy Spirit.

    For example from what I heard from a Pentecostal, "Speaking in tongues is not weird babblings, but like speaking a fluent language that no one knows" They do not speak the language through their own power.

    They would say there are real tongues, and then there is the counterfeit one.


    I haven't studied scripture enough to side with either one, so my position is (I don't know which doctrine is true yet).

    But for those who have studied it, is this an easy doctrine to figure out?

    I don't want to be missing out on the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit, but at the same time, I want to be cautious.
     
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  2. Pethesedzao

    Pethesedzao Well-Known Member

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    The Baptism WITH the Spirit is mentioned in the 4 gospels and the Acts. Jesus wants to baptize His Church with the Spirit
     
  3. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I just find it amazing how God uses all of us ignorant self-important folks to accomplish what he set out to do. We are incapable of "getting it right", which to me, (assuming we should have complete knowledge, or at least understand what we are talking about when we talk), shows that maybe it is not so much the intellect that God wants to win over, but the heart.

    It takes every one of the elect, and all kinds they are, too, to make the members of the Bride of Christ.
     
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  4. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Member since 2005 Supporter

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    If one is a Christian, they have the baptism of the Holy spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 is the central passage in the Bible regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit: “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” (1 Corinthians 12:13). Notice that we “all” have been baptized by the Spirit—all believers have received the baptism, synonymous with salvation, and it is not a special experience for only a few.
     
  5. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    There have been those throughout the history of the Church who have spoken in tongues for whatever reason or another but it has been rare. Then one day not long ago someone decided that speaking in tongues was a necessity, then every member of their new group began speaking in tongues. I'll leave you to decide whether you believe their version of tongues is authentic or not.

    But it does beg the question of why the most easily faked gift of the Spirit is the one mandatory gift of the Spirit. Why not healing? Why not prophecy?

    While the bible specifically does not prohibit speaking in tongues it does admonish against it in favor of the other gifts:

    1Co 14:23 - Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

    [​IMG]1Co 14:24 - But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all.

    My own personal opinion is that I would rather find a person who can heal others than one who can supposedly speak a language no one can understand.

    If after I was diagnosed with cancer last year I had asked someone to heal me of it and all they did was respond in gibberish I wouldn't have thought much of them.
     
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  6. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

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    In the bible, it was a different thing from converting, and it is that way today too. We should seek it.
     
  7. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

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    You should have faith in God and leave the door open to anything that can be good from him, myself, i don't see a reason why gifts would need to have stopped. And the bible supports more that the church needs the gifts that to say that they stopped.

    I don't have experience in gifts, but i knew a preacher, who told me a lot of things about myself prophetizing and they were all true, it was impressive, like if he was reading my soul, no way he could knew those things otherwise.
     
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  8. Pethesedzao

    Pethesedzao Well-Known Member

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    No, that is not the baptism with the Holy Spirit but is the baptism that saves us immediately at conversion. There are 3 main Baptisms of which the third one is water baptism. Only one baptism saves us...
     
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  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    The Cessationists bring their main attack on tongues.
    Let's examine their points of argument below. (from Wikipedia)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Cor.13:8).
    Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:
    1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church.
    Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.
    2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians.
    Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit,
    but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy.
    The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and
    does not necessarily include prediction of the future.
    3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was
    now available to other nations. See 1 Cor.14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.
    4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers,
    whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Cor.14:1-3).
    5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers.
    Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something
    that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.
    6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today,
    there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any
    country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak in Acts 2. As for the miracle gift
    of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2).
    And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul,
    who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus
    (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures
    to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2)
    the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    How would you answer the Cessationists?
    What is the biblical rebuttal to each of these points?

    Here below is a key "proof-text" for Cessationism.
    Note: a "proof-text" is a scripture that is misused to support a religious viewpoint
    that it not supported by the Bible as a whole.

    1 Corinthians 13:8
    Love never fails.
    But where there are prophecies, they will cease;
    where there are tongues, they will be stilled;
    where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

    However...
    If tongues have ceased, then so has prophecy and knowledge.
    Is that true?

    Note:
    The Cessationists claim that "prophecy" is preaching.
    How do you suppose they define "knowledge"?
    Not as a miracle gift, that's for sure.
     
  10. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Continuing on the subject of a biblical response to the claims of Cessationism.

    Here is the first of six points the Cessationists claim prove that
    the gift of tongues have already ceased.

    Note: Cessationists define the gift of "prophecy" as preaching. (forthtelling)

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church.
    Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The first thing we need to address is their claim that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were needed
    for "authenticating signs". Or that only the miracle gifts, including healing, were "signs".

    They base their position on...

    1 Corinthians 14:22
    Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers;
    prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.

    As you may recall, their claim fell apart in context. See 1 Cor.14:23-25.
    The Apostle Paul was comparing the impact between tongues and prophecy
    on unbelievers or inquirers visiting the church.
    "... if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues...
    will they not say that you are out of your mind?" - vs 23

    How is that working for an authenticating sign?
    That matches the initial response at Pentecost. But get this...

    1 Corinthians 14:24-25
    But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in
    while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin
    and are brought under judgment by all,
    25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare.
    So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming,
    “God is really among you!”

    If there is an authenticating sign in this passage, it is the spiritual gift of prophecy,
    not the spiritual gift of tongues. And look at how it is defined.
    "... the secrets of their hearts are laid bare." - vs 25
    Does that sound like preaching to you? The whole church prophesying.

    Therefore, the "sign gift" in 1 Cor.14 is prophecy, not tongues.
    Assuming the gifts were for signs. (hold that thought)

    And what about healing?
    Where is their "proof-text" that says healing is an authenticating sign?
    And if it was an authenticating sign, why did it not occur at the outpouring on Pentecost?

    All this begs the most important question:
    What were the gifts for?

    Were they given as "authenticating signs"
    or were they intended for something else?

    1 Corinthians 12:1
    Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters,
    I do not want you to be uninformed.
     
  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Continuing on the subject of a biblical response to the claims of Cessationism.

    Here again is the first of six points the Cessationists claim prove that
    the gift of tongues have already ceased.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church.
    Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    As we saw in the last post, the case for "authenticating signs"
    fell apart in the context of their "proof-text". If there was a "sign gift"
    in 1 Corinthians chapter fourteen, it was prophecy, not tongues. (vs 24-25)

    And remember, the Cessationists claim that the gift of prophecy is preaching. (forthtelling)

    All this begs the most important question:
    What were the gifts for?

    Were they given as "authenticating signs" or were they intended for something else?

    After listing the spiritual gifts (manifestations of the Holy Spirit), the Apostle Paul
    goes on to describe the church as a body made up of many parts.

    1 Corinthians 12:12-13
    Just as a body, though one, has many parts,
    but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.
    13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—
    whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
    14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

    Therefore, if it takes all these parts to make up the WHOLE body of Christ,
    who has the right to surgically remove any of the parts?

    The Cessationists have turned the body of Christ into an amputee.

    1 Corinthians 12:21
    The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!”
    And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!”

    But isn't that exactly what the Cessationists are saying?
    We don't need tongues and healing anymore, simply remove them from the church, if you please.

    NO, THANK YOU; we'll keep all our parts if you don't mind.

    But they do mind. They have gone to great lengths to achieve their
    rather gruesome task of dismembering the body of Christ.

    1 Corinthians 12:27-28
    Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
    28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets,
    third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance,
    and of different kinds of tongues.

    Therefore, how could you remove any of these parts and still have a whole body?
    It's simple, you can't.


    Matthew 3:11
    “I baptize you with water for repentance.
    But after me comes one who is more powerful than I,
    whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
    He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    The rite of water baptism remains in the church. That's good.
    But what became of Christ's baptism?
    The baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire?

    Acts 19:2-6
    and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
    They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
    3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
    “John’s baptism,” they replied.
    4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance.
    He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
    5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    6 When Paul placed his hands on them,
    the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

    The gifts cannot be separated from each other, however, the question remains.
    What were the gifts for?
    Were they given as "authenticating signs" or were they intended for something else?
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Continuing on the subject of a biblical response to the claims of Cessationism.

    Here again is the first of six points the Cessationists claim prove that
    the gift of tongues have already ceased.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church.
    Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    A couple of things remain to be covered on this point and then we can move on to point two.
    One is old business and one is new. Here they are:
    A) Point one above says as a basis: "The apostles, through whom tongues came..." Is that true? (nope)
    B) What were the gifts for? (old business)

    Let's finish up with the old business before we cover the new business.

    The question remains.
    What were the gifts for?
    Were they given as "authenticating signs" or were they intended for something else?

    The gifts in entirety were intended to build up the church.
    The word "edify" means to build up or strengthen.

    1 Corinthians 14:1-3
    Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.
    2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God.
    Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
    3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for
    their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

    Notice how tongues and prophecy are being discussed side by side.
    The Apostle is making a comparison. One of the Cessationist claims
    is to say that prophecy (defined as preaching) is greater than tongues.
    This is only partially true, even when prophecy is correctly defined.
    As we continue in the passage from above, this will become clear.

    1 Corinthians 14:4-5
    Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves,
    but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
    5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,
    but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who
    prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,
    unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

    Notice that there is only one instance in which prophecy is superior to tongues.
    Prophecy is only greater when interpretation does not accompany the message in tongues.
    The interpretation is edifying to the hearers, because they can understand it.

    Therefore, a message in tongues is equal to prophecy when there is interpretation.
    Is that the claim of the Cessationists? (nope)

    Also notice in verse two above that "... anyone who speaks in a tongue..."
    utters "mysteries by the Spirit." - vs 2

    Compare this to what is said later in the chapter.

    1 Corinthians 14:29-32
    Two or three prophets should speak, and
    the others should weigh carefully what is said.
    30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is
    sitting down, the first speaker should stop.
    31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that
    everyone may be instructed and encouraged.
    32 The spirits of prophets are subject
    to the control of prophets.

    NOTE: They did church gatherings the opposite to what we do.
    The congregation stood while the teachers/preachers were seated.
    The scripture above was to instruct those standing (the congregation),
    to respect those seated, the leadership.

    It is obvious that prophecy is not limited to preaching. "Two or three prophets should speak..."
    Described here as "a revelation" that comes to someone during the gathering,
    that needs to be weighed carefully. Notice the similarities when tongue is discussed in the previous verses.

    1 Corinthians 14:27-28
    If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—
    should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.
    28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet
    in the church and speak to himself and to God.

    The Apostle describes an orderly worship service as including two or three who
    speak in tongues with interpretation and two or three prophets that speak. And any tongues that
    come without interpretation should not be addressed to the whole church.

    That's enough for now.
    We'll have to address point A) in the next post.
    The Cessationist claim that tongues came through the apostles.
    Is that true? (nope)
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Continuing on the subject of a biblical response to the claims of Cessationism.

    Here again is the first of six points the Cessationists claim prove that
    the gift of tongues have already ceased.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church.
    Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    A couple of things remain to be covered on this point and then we can move on to point two.
    One is old business and one is new. Here they are:
    A) Point one above says as a basis: "The apostles, through whom tongues came..." Is that true? (nope)
    B) What were the gifts for? (old business)

    Now we can move on to the new business.
    The Cessationists claim that tongues came through the Apostles.
    And while this is partially true, in the final analysis it is false.

    What the Cessationists are trying to prove is this. No Apostles = no tongues.
    When the Apostles died, the "sign" gifts of tongues and healing died with them.

    The only way it could be completely true is if tongues ONLY came
    through the Apostles and were never distributed any other way.
    So, let's focus on that. When did tongues not come through the Apostles?

    I can think of three instances right away.
    1) The outpouring at Pentecost.
    2) The house of Cornelius.
    3) Ananias with Saul.

    At Pentecost the Apostles were told to wait. The tongues came to them.
    In fact, I don't think they were even told what was coming. They were waiting
    for the promised Holy Spirit. They knew they would receive power,
    but beyond that, what were they expecting?

    Acts 1:4-6
    On one occasion, while he was eating with them,
    he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem,
    but wait for the gift my Father promised,
    which you have heard me speak about.
    5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days
    you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
    6 Then they gathered around him and asked him,
    “Lord, are you at this time going
    to restore the kingdom to Israel?”


    You know the rest of the story. The Holy Spirit, including tongues,
    came to them, not through them.

    The Cessationists might say, "Yes of course, but after that..."
    Let's look at what happened at the house of Cornelius. Hopefully
    you are familiar with that story, so I won't post the whole story here on
    this post. If you are not familiar, I encourage you to read the whole thing in
    Acts chapters ten and eleven. There is a telling and a retelling of the story.

    Acts 10:44-48
    While Peter was still speaking these words,
    the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
    45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished
    that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
    46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
    Then Peter said,
    47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water.
    They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
    48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
    Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

    The Cessationists might argue that Peter was an Apostle and the tongues had
    come through him. I don't agree, but let's continue with Ananias and Saul.

    Acts 9:10-11, 17-19
    In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias.
    The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”
    “Yes, Lord,” he answered.
    11 The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas
    on Straight Street and ask for a man from
    Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. ...
    17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it.
    Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul,
    the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as
    you were coming here—has sent me so that you may
    see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

    18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes,
    and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,
    19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

    The Cessationists might complain that this says nothing about speaking in tongues,
    which is true. However, can you find any other examples of the filling with the Holy Spirit
    in the book of Acts that did not include tongues? And we certainly couldn't conclude
    that Saul (Paul) wasn't a tongues speaker. Probably the most notorious.

    1 Corinthians 14:18
    I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

    The church in Corinth was so notorious for manifestations of the Holy Spirit that
    the Apostle had to write them a letter about reigning it in and conforming to a pattern
    of more orderly worship. Yet he spoke in tongues more than all of them.

    However, we could certainly argue that it was typical for the Apostles to administer tongues.
    Here's a good example.

    Acts 8:14-17
    When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God,
    they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
    15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there
    that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
    16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them;
    they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them,
    and they received the Holy Spirit.


    We'll have to assume tongues in this situation. Although it could be argued that tongues
    was not always the only manifestation to follow the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 19:6
    When Paul placed his hands on them,
    the Holy Spirit came on them,
    and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

    The bottom line.
    In the final analysis, the Apostles were not always needed to administer the
    baptism with the Holy Spirit. The disciple Ananias was used, and sometimes it
    happened spontaneously. In fact there are still testimonies to this day of
    spontaneous baptisms with the Holy Spirit coming to those who knew nothing about it.
     
  14. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Paul says not everyone is given the gifts of tongues or interpretation. Some are and some aren’t. According to what I’ve seen from many Pentecostals they usually teach that receiving the gift of tongues is only a matter of time and that all true believers will receive it. They often try to coax people to try to speak in tongues giving them advice on how to do it. To me this would seem artificial if a person is trying to speak in tongues of their own accord. Nowhere in the scriptures is any advice or coaxing ever given pertaining to speaking in tongues. It’s simply a matter of whether or not the Holy Spirit has chosen to give certain individuals the gift or not. My advice is don’t try to do anything. Just love honor and obey God and let the Spirit work thru you and if He chooses to bless you with the gift then you will receive it regardless of your efforts.
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    There are at least five different kinds of tongues. Receiving the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is NOT the gift of tongues. (1Cor.12) The gift is #3 in this list. Typically a personal prayer language (#1 in the list below) is received with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

    Five Different kinds of tongues
    1)
    Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
    2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
    3) Prophetic language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
    4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
    5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)
     
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  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That argument doesn't hold water.
    - Were the 120 in the upper room at Pentecost believers? (Acts 2)
    - Why hadn't the believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? (Acts 8:14-18)
    - Why did the Apostle Paul have to lay hands on the newly baptized believers in Ephesus for them to receive the Holy Spirit? (Acts 19:1-7)
     
  17. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Right.
    The Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a subsequent experience to salvation.
    It is typically the entry point for other manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 12:7-11
    Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
     
  18. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    For me, its not at all difficult. The age of the great outpouring of the gifts passed. They served their purpose in God's plans. That's it. If they were still part of the life of the church and serving the purpose of spreading the faith to the unconverted, we all would of course recognize it.

    But the argument that somehow the historic facts are not the historic facts and the gifts did NOT cease to be what they were during the early years of the church is like arguing that 1) I'm still a teenager simply because I thought I would never get old and 2) I would prefer it if I still were a teenager.
     
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Acts chapter two gives us the time frame.
    The outpouring is for the last days. (vs 17)
    The promise is for "all whom the Lord our God will call." (vs 39)

    Acts 2:17-20
    “‘In the last days, God says,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
    Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your young men will see visions,
    your old men will dream dreams.
    18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
    and they will prophesy.
    19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
    and signs on the earth below,
    blood and fire and billows of smoke.
    20 The sun will be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood
    before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

    Acts 2:39
    The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
    for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  20. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    There are several reasons why that passage cannot support the contentions of continuationists--typical Pentecostal Christians, that is.

    For one, nothing in it says that the gifts must have continued on throughout all the ages and never let up. For that is the argument that the continuationist will give. In fact, the passage suggests that the signs described are something special for the end times.

    For another, what is spoken of in this passage is not identical to, does not parallel, the list of gifts described in Corinthians, although there are some similarities.
     
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