• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Is Christian Zionism Scriptural?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by SilverSpoon, May 22, 2021.

  1. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,646
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Small note:
    It's the same olive tree since Abraham to now.
    Its roots are the holy patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    And only unbelieving Israel was cut off, not "grafted out," and believing Gentiles grafted in with the remaining believing Israel.
    The Old Covenant was bilateral, being conditioned on the Law, and abrogated if the Law was not kept.
    The New Covenant is unilateral, unconditional, and cannot be broken by man, only by God.

    One is law keeping, and one is Holy Spirit.
     
  2. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +15,088
    Christian
    Married
    God will never let the Jews be destroyed as a people. Every government that has tried to exterminate them has been exterminated itself.

    But that doesn't mean that God will protect every Israeli state government. In the Old Testament, the fate of the state government had its ups and downs and its ins and outs with God even as God preserved them as a people. There is no solid reason to think that the current state of Israel is the fulfillment of divine prophesy. It hasn't happened as prophesy states it must, by the inarguable and conclusive hand of God, but rather by the political shenanigans of the US and the UK. Even many Jews were suspicious of it in 1948, and some still are.

    Moreover, the current nation of Israel is in rebellion against the King of Kings. The government oppresses both Jewish Christians and Arab Christians, and is actually more atheist than it is observantly Jewish. Is the government blessed while in rebellion to God? The Old Testament gives example after example that the answer is: No.
     
  3. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,646
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    All true Israel; i.e., those who believe in and trust on the person and the atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., not quity
     
  4. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    I take the bible literally when they said in Romans 11:25-29 that all Israel shall be saved.
     
  5. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    So you believe that "all Israel shall be saved" does not literally mean all Israel.

    Alright then.
     
  6. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    Yes, I can see that you lumped us in the Body of Christ into the term "Israel" as well.

    Spiritualizing what Paul meant in Romans 11 as Israel is a common doctrine held by many Christians so I understand where you are coming from.
     
  7. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

    77
    +21
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Its based on the context of Romans. Israel is used that way in the preceding chapters.

    It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.” (Romans 9 : 6-9)

    I don't do anything, it's what it says.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
  8. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    As you discuss Christian doctrine in forums long enough, you will realize that there are many who hold all kinds of doctrines for themselves and insist to everyone else that the doctrine they hold "is what scripture clearly/plainly" says.
     
  9. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

    77
    +21
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Well in this case it does, as I have shown you. It is important to read in full context, read the preceding chapters and relevant old testament references, never a verse in isolation.
     
  10. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    As for your point about who is true Israel, using that passage from Romans 9:6-9, I have already addressed it here

    Is Christian Zionism Scriptural?
     
  11. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

    77
    +21
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    How does Galatians and Acts address Romans? That makes no sense.
     
  12. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    It is not enough to just be a member of the nation of Israel, or as you quoted from Romans 9:6 "who are descended from Israel", which all Jews are, to be considered true Israel in the eyes of God.

    A Jew needs to believe in Jesus as the promised Messiah, to be considered as the True Israel, the Israel of God.

    There was a remnant of Israel who did believed, as Paul stated clearly in Romans 11:1-5, so these Jews are the little flock, the True Israel, the Israel of God.

    That is what I am saying.
     
  13. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    +3,729
    Non-Denom
    Single
    We are not grafted into Israel.

    We are grafted into the root of that olive tree which is the Christ.

    Romans 11:17
    But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree.

    Will all Israel will be saved?

    Romans 9:27
    Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved."

    The text states that a remnant will be saved.

    Israel as a nation was certainly grafted out of the cultivated olive tree.

    Romans 11:23-24
    And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

    Israel has not existed as a theocratic nation, a covenant nation for 2000 years.

    Modern Israel is a secular nation and not a covenant nation. Covenant Israel will never exist again. Paul wrote Romans before Israel lost it's temple and it's promised land. Before the ramification of that broken covenant had been inflicted on Israel. If Paul had written Romans after 70 AD, I dare say that, Paul may not have written that all Israel would be saved.

    Modern Israel exists as a consequence of the will of man, not the will of God.

    We are all members of the new covenant. The covenant nation of Israel is extinct.
     
  14. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    God made an unconditional promise to Abraham that his physical descendants would inherit land that is much bigger than what the nation of Israel currently occupy, in Genesis 15:18-21

    When you say God terminated that covenant, are you also saying that those promises are now terminated?

    Paul tells us otherwise in Romans 11:29

    For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
  15. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +15,088
    Christian
    Married
    If all Israel, every individual who has any of Jacob's DNA, will be saved simply because they bear the DNA of Jacob...why was Paul so concerned about their believing in Christ?

    But, no. What scripture says is: It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
     
  16. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    I have addressed your point here

    Is Christian Zionism Scriptural?

    At the end of the Tribulation, the nation of Israel at that time will believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah, so yes, they will believe in Christ.
     
  17. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,646
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    It is the branches of a tree which partake of the root's nourishment up through the trunk.

    In the natural order, branches are not grafted into roots.
    Nothing is grafted into an underground root system.

    The one olive tree of God's people is the body of Christ.
    The root of the olive tree are the patriarchs.
    The "whole batch of dough" is the Jewish people, the "firstfruits" of the batch are the patriarchs. (Romans 11:16).
    The one olive tree are the people of true faith in the Promise (Jesus Christ), going all the way back to Abraham.
    God's promise to Israel is fulfilled in a remnant.
    THere is no "grafting out" in horticulture, just as there is no "grafting in" to the root system in horticulture. There is "cutting off" in horticulture, and there is "grafting in" to a branch of the tree in horticulture.

    Paul uses "cut off" (Romans 11:22), as does Jesus (John 15:2), a common phrase of the OT for judgment and punishment.
    Agreed.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
  18. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    +3,729
    Non-Denom
    Single
    The olive tree has no trunk, the branches form the trunk. This may be the reason that God selected the olive tree as the example.

    olivetree.jpg

    See how the branches form the trunk itself. This is not the usual structure of a tree.

    So if you graft out a branch, you have severed the branch from the root of the olive tree.

    The root is Christ, the patriarchs are not the root of that tree of life.
     
  19. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    +3,729
    Non-Denom
    Single
    That is exactly what I am saying.

    Theocratic Israel does not exist and never will again.

    Did Abraham's offspring start many nations? That has been fulfilled.

    Did Israel reach the promised land? Yes, that was fulfilled.

    Those are worldly, earthly, fulfillments of God's promises on earth.

    The first covenant with Israel was a covenant of works, a work of the flesh, based on the book of the law. The promise was a block of land and not eternal life.

    Eternal life, the heavenly kingdom, are promised to the adherents of the new covenant. This promise is the eternal promise to mankind, no Jew or Gentile. The old covenant with Israel served as the shadow, a shadow of the approaching international covenant of grace.
     
  20. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +736
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    I already stated "land that is much bigger..."

    Israel never did occupy the entire land size that was promised in Genesis 15:18-21, not even under Joshua.

    So when you say "that was fulfilled", what do you mean by fulfilled?
     
Loading...