Is Christian Zionism Scriptural?

[klutedavid]

I already stated "land that is much bigger..."

Israel never did occupy the entire land size that was promised in Genesis 15:18-21, not even under Joshua.

So when you say "that was fulfilled", what do you mean by fulfilled?

That promise was given to the descendants of Abraham (Genesis 15:18-21) not specifically to Israel. Abraham was not a Jew. The nation of Israel came much later. The descendants of Abraham would have taken all that land.

 

[Guojing]

That promise was given to the descendants of Abraham (Genesis 15:18-21) not specifically to Israel. Abraham was not a Jew. The nation of Israel came much later. The descendants of Abraham would have taken all that land.

When you say "The descendants of Abraham would have taken all that land", who are you referring to exactly?

You mean those people who are currently occupying that land are the descendants of Abraham?

 

[klutedavid]

When you say "The descendants of Abraham would have taken all that land", who are you referring to exactly?

You mean those people who are currently occupying that land are the descendants of Abraham?

The covenant of circumcision.

Abraham is the direct patriarch of the Israelite people through Isaac.

Abraham is also the patriarch of Arabs through his son Ishmael, born to Abraham and Hagar, Sarah's Egyptian servant.

Genesis 17:6-8
I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

 

[Guojing]

The covenant of circumcision.

Abraham is the direct patriarch of the Israelite people through Isaac.

Abraham is also the patriarch of Arabs through his son Ishmael, born to Abraham and Hagar, Sarah's Egyptian servant.

Genesis 17:6-8
I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

I see, so you are making a tautological point.

Whoever is currently living in that land promised in Genesis 15:18-21 are also Abraham's descendants.

And since that promise regarding land was only to Abraham's descendants and not the nation of Israel, therefore God has fulfilled his promise to Abraham.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Clare73]

The olive tree has no trunk, the branches form the trunk.

Thanks for the picture. Not all varieties of olive trees look like that, many/most don't.
Most have identifiable trunks.

Branches make leaves. There are no leaves on that trunk. They are the trunk.
The leafed branchs are receiving their nourishment from the root through that trunk.

This may be the reason that God selected the olive tree as the example.

The olive tree represented Israel in the OT.
It's the same olive tree in the NT, with the branches of unbelieving Israel cut off, and the branches of believing Gentiles grafted in.

View attachment 299648

See how the branches form the trunk itself. This is not the usual structure of a tree.

So if you graft out a branch, you have severed the branch from the root of the olive tree.

Grafting is the hortcultural form of stitching. You don't "graft out" a branch just as you don't "stitch out" a seam in clothing. You "cut off" the natural branch and you "cut out" the stitching of a seam, in both cases severing what was joined.

The root is Christ, the patriarchs are not the root of that olive tree.

Is the dough made of the firstfruits of the harvest also Christ?

So you're saying that the tree is the kingdom of God?
And that Israel was the kingdom of God, and then cut off?
So that would mean unbelieving Israel was "in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom," as those cut off from the Vine, right?

 

[Clare73]

That is exactly what I am saying.
Theocratic Israel does not exist and never will again.
Did Abraham's offspring start many nations? That has been fulfilled.
Did Israel reach the promised land? Yes, that was fulfilled.
Those are worldly, earthly, fulfillments of God's promises on earth.
The first covenant with Israel was a covenant of works, a work of the flesh, based on the book of the law. The promise was a block of land and not eternal life.

Would not the "evelasting/forever" part mean heavenly land, the heavenly city (Hebrews 11:13-16);
i.e., eternal life?

Eternal life, the heavenly kingdom, are promised to the adherents of the new covenant. This promise is the eternal promise to mankind, no Jew or Gentile. The old covenant with Israel served as the shadow, a shadow of the approaching international covenant of grace.

Did not Abraham, Isaac and Jacob receive the fulfillment of the land-everlasting/forever promise, made to each of them personally, in the heavenly land; i.e., eternal life (Hebrews 11:15-16)?

 

[Clare73]

I already stated "land that is much bigger..."

Israel never did occupy the entire land size that was promised in Genesis 15:18-21, not even under Joshua.

So when you say "that was fulfilled", what do you mean by fulfilled?

It was completely fulfilled under Solomon (1 Kings 4:21, 1 Kings 4:24-25, cf 2 Samuel 8:3).

The ony land promises remaining are to the Church (Psalms 37:29; Matthew 5:5;
2 Peter 3:10-13; Revelation 21:4-7), of which Canaan was a type (Joshua 24:13).

 

[SilverSpoon]

It is not enough to just be a member of the nation of Israel, or as you quoted from Romans 9:6 "who are descended from Israel", which all Jews are, to be considered true Israel in the eyes of God.

A Jew needs to believe in Jesus as the promised Messiah, to be considered as the True Israel, the Israel of God.

There was a remnant of Israel who did believed, as Paul stated clearly in Romans 11:1-5, so these Jews are the little flock, the True Israel, the Israel of God.

That is what I am saying.

Right you have to believe in Jesus, so that refers to Christians all over the world and has nothing to do with the modern country of Israel, which is my whole entire point, thanks for finally agreeing.

 

[SilverSpoon]

God made an unconditional promise to Abraham that his physical descendants would inherit land that is much bigger than what the nation of Israel currently occupy, in Genesis 15:18-21.

And that was fulfilled and passed before Jesus came.

Joshua : 41 The towns of the Levites in the territory held by the Israelites were forty-eight in all, together with their pasturelands. 42 Each of these towns had pasturelands surrounding it; this was true for all these towns. 43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there.

Then you read the NT and it all makes sense. It is now by spiritual descent rather than physical. There is no racial backdoor to heaven.

 

[Guojing]

And that was fulfilled and passed before Jesus came.

Joshua : 41 The towns of the Levites in the territory held by the Israelites were forty-eight in all, together with their pasturelands. 42 Each of these towns had pasturelands surrounding it; this was true for all these towns. 43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there.

Then you read the NT and it all makes sense. It is now by spiritual descent rather than physical. There is no racial backdoor to heaven.

The current inhabitants of that land promised, are they of spiritual descent, aka Christians?

If not, then the promise to Abraham was not forever? Genesis 13:14-15

 

[Guojing]

Right you have to believe in Jesus, so that refers to Christians all over the world and has nothing to do with the modern country of Israel, which is my whole entire point, thanks for finally agreeing.

As I said to you many times, the Body of Christ is not Israel, so no it does not refer to "Christians all over the world".

We are not the intendent recipients of that land promise.

 

[SilverSpoon]

The current inhabitants of that land promised, are they of spiritual descent, aka Christians?

If not, then the promise to Abraham was not forever? Genesis 13:14-15

The land promise of the Abrahamic covenant was forever, but it was also fulfilled already. Therefore the modern country of Israel cannot be a fulfillment of it.

 

[SilverSpoon]

As I said to you many times, the Body of Christ is not Israel, so no it does not refer to "Christians all over the world".

We are not the intendent recipients of that land promise.

Romans 11 does not refer to a land promise, it refers to the first coming of Christ, already explained that.

 

[Guojing]

The land promise of the Abrahamic covenant was forever, but it was also fulfilled already. Therefore the modern country of Israel cannot be a fulfillment of it.

So forever does not mean forever, to you?

The land was once given to Israel, in Joshua's lifetime, but Israel did not actually possess it forever?

 

[RDKirk]

So forever does not mean forever, to you?

The land was once given to Israel, in Joshua's lifetime, but Israel did not actually possess it forever?

They didn't possess it forever even from Joshua's lifetime to Daniel's.

 

[Guojing]

They didn't possess it forever even from Joshua's lifetime to Daniel's.

So if you agree that God cannot lie (Numbers 23:19,Titus 1:2,Hebrews 6:18), if he told Abraham that it will be forever, it must be a promise yet to be fulfilled?

Is it then not clear that, following Romans 11:25-29, there will come a time in the future, after Jesus's 2nd coming, where the nation of Israel would indeed occupy that land, and it will indeed be forever?

 

[SilverSpoon]

So if you agree that God cannot lie (Numbers 23:19,Titus 1:2,Hebrews 6:18), if he told Abraham that it will be forever, it must be a promise yet to be fulfilled?

Is it then not clear that, following Romans 11:25-29, there will come a time in the future, after Jesus's 2nd coming, where the nation of Israel would indeed occupy that land, and it will indeed be forever?

It was fulfilled so He didn't lie. They weren't meant to hold the land forever, nor have they done so. If they were suppose to live there forever then why was there a nearly 2000 year gap between the ancient Kingdom of Israel and the modern state? I already explained Romans 11 to you (it refers to his first coming), why do you keep repeating ad nauseum what has already been addressed?

 

[Guojing]

It was fulfilled so He didn't lie. They weren't meant to hold the land forever, nor have they done so. If they were suppose to live there forever then why was there a nearly 2000 year gap between the ancient Kingdom of Israel and the modern state? I already explained Romans 11 to you (it refers to his first coming), why do you keep repeating ad nauseum what has already been addressed?

I simply take God's promises literally. If he promised Abraham forever, he meant what he said.

The promise of forever will come in the future, as stated clearly in Hebrews 11:13

 

[SilverSpoon]

I simply take God's promises literally. If he promised Abraham forever, he meant what he said.

The promise of forever will come in the future, as stated clearly in Hebrews 11:13

Nobody took it figuratively. The promise being forever, is not the same as live in Israel forever. The promise would not expire until it was fulfilled, and it was before the New Testament was even written.

 

[Guojing]

Nobody took it figuratively. The promise forever, is not the same as live in Israel forever. The promise would not expire until it was fulfilled, and it was before the New Testament was even written.

When you said nobody, how do you know that everybody thinks like you?

Genesis 13:14-15

There are people who take God's promises literally, but maybe not you.

Forever means forever, and not "It will expire when it is fulfilled".