Is Christian Zionism Scriptural?

SilverSpoon

Active Member
May 22, 2021
77
22
32
California
✟10,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So to answer your question, since natural Israel is currently fallen in the eyes of God, there is no need for the Body of Christ to especially support Israel.

God himself will ensure that Israel, the entire nation, will finally acknowledge his Son as their promised Messiah, at the end of the Tribulation, as you stated in Romans 11:25-27.

That tribulation period will take place when God decided that the final member of the Body of Christ has come in (Romans 11:25), as you quoted "until the full number of the Gentiles has come in"

As I have explained multiple times, it references an old testament verse pertaining to the first coming of the messiah, it is not a future prophecy. It had been fulfilled before Romans was written.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,773
1,309
sg
✟214,746.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As I have explained multiple times, it references an old testament verse pertaining to the first coming of the messiah, it is not a future prophecy. It had been fulfilled before Romans was written.

You subscribe to amillennialism?

Romans 11:25-27 is describing a future event "All Israel shall be saved".

Paul was saved after the first coming of Christ, so it cannot be about the first coming.

You believe Jesus will return for Israel again correct?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Pioneer3mm

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 12, 2018
1,491
1,265
North America
✟541,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Intro

Christian Zionism is believed by many Christians (unknown percentage), and of course it is believed to have scriptural origins. I want to explore this idea here, and see if it holds up.

First we must define the belief : the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 were in accordance with Bible prophecy. Also believed is that Jews are "chosen" and still have a covenant with God.

What is the supposed basis for this doctrine? There is no explicit mention of a future state of Israel anywhere in the Old or New testament, however it is interpreted from various verses.

Abrahamic Covenant

One of them is such :

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and between thy seed after thee in their generations, by a perpetual covenant: to be a God to thee, and to thy seed after thee. (Genesis 17:7)


Seems rather clear, however the covenant (Abrahamic) has multiple parts. One is the land (Israel / Palestine). This one was already fulfilled when the ancient Kingdom of Israel was established :

41 The towns of the Levites in the territory held by the Israelites were forty-eight in all, together with their pasturelands. 42 Each of these towns had pasturelands surrounding it; this was true for all these towns. 43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. (Joshua 21:41-43)

Salvation of Israel Covenant

This is based on Romans 11, a Zionist favorite.

All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”


Seems clear again, however it's important to read carefully and have some biblical knowledge as always. The covenant part starts with "as it is written", it is referencing something already written. But what?

20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
declares the Lord.

21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.


Isaiah 59 is what. It's a reference to Jesus first coming. He came to Zion, that was the new covenant with those who became Christians. This is no small error! Not understanding this has people believing in some third covenant with a future state of Israel, which simply does not exist.

Jews Still Chosen?

Christian Zionists claim that Jews are still chosen, this requires scriptural evidence in the new testament. But what does the NT actually say?

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. (Colossians 3:11-12)

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1 Peter 2:9)

A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. (Romans 2 : 28-29)

Abundantly clear that God has no ethnic favorites, including Jews. Also clear that faith in Christ is what makes you chosen, and most Jews do not accept Him. What happens to those who don't accept Christ?

For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people." (Acts 3:23-24)

Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:5-6)

Clear.

Conclusion

In my research I have concluded that Christian Zionism is in fact not scriptural, and is based on cherry pick, misreading, and misunderstanding of the Bible. Please share your thoughts, thanks for reading.
Good topic.
---
Hope to see...topic related comments.
- You need to be aware that some posters on CF
are..
---
Welcome to CF.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: SilverSpoon
Upvote 0

SilverSpoon

Active Member
May 22, 2021
77
22
32
California
✟10,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You subscribe to amillennialism?

Romans 11:25-27 is describing a future event "All Israel shall be saved".

Paul was saved after the first coming of Christ, so it cannot be about the first coming.

You believe Jesus will return for Israel again correct?

Only if you you read one cherry picked line and ignore the rest. You have to be disinterested in objective reading in order to this to be a future prophecy.

What does this mean : "As it is written"?

If it's referencing something already written, as it says it does, and as I showed it where it does in Isaiah, then its not a future prophecy, simple.
 
Upvote 0

Jay Sea

................ Ke ĉiuj vivu
Mar 28, 2020
340
161
81
victoria
✟26,347.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Intro

Christian Zionism is believed by many Christians (unknown percentage), and of course it is believed to have scriptural origins. I want to explore this idea here, and see if it holds up.

First we must define the belief : the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 were in accordance with Bible prophecy. Also believed is that Jews are "chosen" and still have a covenant with God.

What is the supposed basis for this doctrine? There is no explicit mention of a future state of Israel anywhere in the Old or New testament, however it is interpreted from various verses.

Abrahamic Covenant

One of them is such :

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and between thy seed after thee in their generations, by a perpetual covenant: to be a God to thee, and to thy seed after thee. (Genesis 17:7)


Seems rather clear, however the covenant (Abrahamic) has multiple parts. One is the land (Israel / Palestine). This one was already fulfilled when the ancient Kingdom of Israel was established :

41 The towns of the Levites in the territory held by the Israelites were forty-eight in all, together with their pasturelands. 42 Each of these towns had pasturelands surrounding it; this was true for all these towns. 43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. (Joshua 21:41-43)

Salvation of Israel Covenant

This is based on Romans 11, a Zionist favorite.

All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”


Seems clear again, however it's important to read carefully and have some biblical knowledge as always. The covenant part starts with "as it is written", it is referencing something already written. But what?

20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
declares the Lord.

21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.


Isaiah 59 is what. It's a reference to Jesus first coming. He came to Zion, that was the new covenant with those who became Christians. This is no small error! Not understanding this has people believing in some third covenant with a future state of Israel, which simply does not exist.

Jews Still Chosen?

Christian Zionists claim that Jews are still chosen, this requires scriptural evidence in the new testament. But what does the NT actually say?

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. (Colossians 3:11-12)

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1 Peter 2:9)

A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. (Romans 2 : 28-29)

Abundantly clear that God has no ethnic favorites, including Jews. Also clear that faith in Christ is what makes you chosen, and most Jews do not accept Him. What happens to those who don't accept Christ?

For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people." (Acts 3:23-24)

Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:5-6)

Clear.

Conclusion

In my research I have concluded that Christian Zionism is in fact not scriptural, and is based on cherry pick, misreading, and misunderstanding of the Bible. Please share your thoughts, thanks for reading.
Even taking that Zionist had a legitimate claim they have nullified it by trying to establish their land by force.
In Love
Jay Sea
 
Upvote 0

SilverSpoon

Active Member
May 22, 2021
77
22
32
California
✟10,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Even taking that Zionist had a legitimate claim they have nullified it by trying to establish their land by force.
In Love
Jay Sea

Yes I agree. Suppose it was a covenant with God, its broken once you commit crimes against humanity such as bombing shelters being used as schools in Gaza, as Israel did in 2014.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,681.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
1)------------
The key is that the Body of Christ and Israel are separate entities.
Not in NT teaching.
In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor gentile, as you have quoted from Paul.

But in Israel, there are only Jews. Right now, true Israel are the Jews who believe, they are the little flock.
Not in NT teaching.

Thre is only one flock and one shepherd (John 10:16), the one olive tree of God's people (Romans 11:17, Romans 11:24) going all the way back to Abraham (Romans 11:16).

You are either in it or not, based on faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty.
Natural Israel has fallen, and they will be restored in Romans 11:25 passage you have quoted.
There is no promise of restoration, there is only the condition of restoration:
if they do not persist in unbelief (Romans 11:23),
which is the only way anyone will be saved.

2)----------------
You are quoting the Body of Christ there, not Israel.

As I said, the key is to understand that the Body of Christ is NOT Israel.
In NT teaching, all those who believe in Jesus Christ, Jew and Gentile alike, are the body of Christ.

God has only one olive tree, going all the way back to Abraham, composed of all Jew and Gentile believers in Jesus Christ.

3)----------------
The Israel of God in Galatians 6, that you quoted, refers to the little flock, whose chief leader was James the brother of Jesus.

As Acts 21:20-25 indicated, James continue to believe that all of them must still physically circumcise their children at 8 days old, and be zealous for the Law of Moses.
It states no such thing.

It states that the brothers (v. 17) reported the conversion of the Jews, not James.
And it states nothing about James or the brothers being zealous for the law.

It states all in relation to the newly converted Jews.
So they are definitely not the Body of Christ who believe otherwise in Galatians 6:15
Nothing in that text puts them outside the body of Christ. They were not disowned or rejected, or separated from the body of Christ because they could not part with the law, though it was a great weakness and mistake to be so attached to mere shadows when the reality was among them.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,773
1,309
sg
✟214,746.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Only if you you read one cherry picked line and ignore the rest. You have to be disinterested in objective reading in order to this to be a future prophecy.

What does this mean : "As it is written"?

If it's referencing something already written, as it says it does, and as I showed it where it does in Isaiah, then its not a future prophecy, simple.

Many prophecies in the OT are yet to be fulfilled, for example Zechariah 8, which is a prophecy of the millennial kingdom.

You are trying to tell me that you believe, just because a prophecy was written in the OT, means it necessarily must be a fulfilled prophecy?

Again my question to you is, are you an amillennialist? If you are, then it clarifies what you actually believe in.
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,773
1,309
sg
✟214,746.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is no promise of restoration, there is only the condition of restoration:
if they do not persist in unbelief (Romans 11:23),
which is the only way anyone will be saved.

As I said, the entire nation of Israel will believe in Christ, at the end of the Tribulation, before they are restored.

So yes, they will fulfill your condition.
 
Upvote 0

SilverSpoon

Active Member
May 22, 2021
77
22
32
California
✟10,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Many prophecies in the OT are yet to be fulfilled, for example Zechariah 8, which is a prophecy of the millennial kingdom.

You are trying to tell me that you believe, just because a prophecy was written in the OT, means it necessarily must be a fulfilled prophecy?

Again my question to you is, are you an amillennialist? If you are, then it clarifies what you actually believe in.

Well that one obviously happened already. Did not Jesus come to Zion the first time around? I don't apply labels to myself, just go by what the book says.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,773
1,309
sg
✟214,746.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well that one obviously happened already. Did not Jesus come to Zion the first time around? I don't apply labels to myself, just go by what the book says.

You believed Romans 11 is about Jesus first coming to Israel. That is how you concluded that Romans 11 has been fulfilled already

But many others believed that Romans 11 is about a future promise that Israel the nation will be restored, as Romans 11:25-32 stated, it is a mystery that was first revealed to the apostle Paul (vs 25).

Why are you so reluctant to clearly state whether you subscribed to amillennialism?
 
Upvote 0

SilverSpoon

Active Member
May 22, 2021
77
22
32
California
✟10,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You believed Romans 11 is about Jesus first coming to Israel. That is how you concluded that Romans 11 has been fulfilled already

But many others believed that Romans 11 is about a future promise that Israel the nation will be restored, as Romans 11:25-32 stated, it is a mystery that was first revealed to the apostle Paul (vs 25).

Why are you so reluctant to clearly state whether you subscribed to amillennialism?

When Jesus came to Zion as it says in Isaiah 59, that fulfilled it, unless you don't believe that happened. I never heard that word, I just go by what the book says.
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,773
1,309
sg
✟214,746.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When Jesus came to Zion as it says in Isaiah 59, that fulfilled it, unless you don't believe that happened. I never heard that word, I just go by what the book says.

So when Romans 11:25-27 said "All Israel shall be saved", did the book really meant "All Israel"?
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,684
8,037
US
✟1,060,379.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
If it's referencing something already written, as it says it does, and as I showed it where it does in Isaiah, then its not a future prophecy, simple.

Hi SilverSpoon,

I didn't expect to meet you again so soon. Again, welcome to CF!

I've been working on putting together a thread for probably well over a year now; but with all of my research, I'm still not prepared. This thread will be a great place for me to test my understanding of some of the components of this future presentation.

This thread presents an exciting opportunity.

When do you suppose that this happened?:

(CLV) Isa 11:9
They shall not do evil, Nor shall they bring ruin in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of Yahweh As waters are covering the sea.

(CLV) Isa 11:10
And there will come to be in that day the Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a Banner of the peoples: Of Him the nations shall inquire, And His rest will come to be glorious.

(CLV) Isa 11:11
And it will come to be in that day, Yahweh shall again lift up His hand, To be zealous for the remnant of His people Which shall remain from Assyria and from Egypt, From Pathros and from Cush, From Elam and from Shinar, From Hamath and from the coastlands of the sea.

(CLV) Isa 11:12 He will lift up a banner for the nations And gather the expelled of Israel, And He shall convene the scattered of Judah From the four wings of the earth.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SilverSpoon

Active Member
May 22, 2021
77
22
32
California
✟10,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So when Romans 11:25-27 said "All Israel shall be saved", did the book really meant "All Israel"?

I was mixed up before, Israel refers to Christians. It was fulfilled because Jesus came to Zion, regardless of what Israel means. All Israel is already saved, because Israel is anyone who accepts Christ be definition.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SilverSpoon

Active Member
May 22, 2021
77
22
32
California
✟10,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi SilverSpoon,

I didn't expect to meet you again so soon. Again, welcome to CF!

I've been working on putting together a thread for probably well over a year now; but with all of my research, I'm still not prepared. This thread will be a great place for me to test my understanding of some of the components of this future presentation.

This thread presents an exciting opportunity.

When do you suppose that this happened?:

(CLV) Isa 11:9
They shall not do evil, Nor shall they bring ruin in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of Yahweh As waters are covering the sea.

(CLV) Isa 11:10
And there will come to be in that day the Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a Banner of the peoples: Of Him the nations shall inquire, And His rest will come to be glorious.

(CLV) Isa 11:11
And it will come to be in that day, Yahweh shall again lift up His hand, To be zealous for the remnant of His people Which shall remain from Assyria and from Egypt, From Pathros and from Cush, From Elam and from Shinar, From Hamath and from the coastlands of the sea.

(CLV) Isa 11:12 He will lift up a banner for the nations And gather the expelled of Israel, And He shall convene the scattered of Judah From the four wings of the earth.

Hello, thank you for your kind words. Those haven't happened, and are believed by most to be second coming prophecies. But he did come to Zion, fulfilling Isaiah 59.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,684
8,037
US
✟1,060,379.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Hello, thank you for your kind words. Those haven't happened, and are believed by most to be second coming prophecies. But he did come to Zion, fulfilling Isaiah 59.
When YHWH gathers Israel and Judah; where do you suppose that they will convene?
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,681.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
As I said, the entire nation of Israel will believe in Christ, at the end of the Tribulation, before they are restored.

So yes, they will fulfill your condition.
There is no NT promise of that.
 
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
So to answer your question, since natural Israel is currently fallen in the eyes of God, there is no need for the Body of Christ to especially support Israel.
It might be better to call the Israel of old, either theocratic Israel or covenant Israel.

God made a covenant with Israel at Mt Sinai. That covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel, a covenant that Israel pledged to obey. A covenant that the nation of Israel broke. So God terminated that covenant with the nation of Israel.

Jesus established a new covenant, a new olive tree.

The nation of Israel was grafted out of the new olive tree and the Gentiles were grafted into the root of that olive tree.

Of course, this was prophetic as is virtually everything in the Old Testament.

That old covenant was a covenant of works, based solely on the book of the law.

The new covenant is a covenant of faith, based on the indwelling Holy Spirit, God's law.

One is flesh and one is the spirit.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,137
20,170
US
✟1,440,860.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So when Romans 11:25-27 said "All Israel shall be saved", did the book really meant "All Israel"?

Compare that to Matthew 2:

After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him." When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

And yet, we know that at least two people in Jerusalem, Simeon and Anna, were waiting and glad to see the new King. So it wasn't literally "all Jerusalem" that was troubled at the prospect.
 
Upvote 0