Is Christian Zionism Scriptural?

SilverSpoon

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When you said nobody, how do you know that everybody thinks like you?

Genesis 13:14-15

There are people who take God's promises literally, but maybe not you.

Forever means forever, and not "It will expire when it is fulfilled".

Nobody here said it was a figure of speech, that's what I am telling you. Fulfilled means to complete, so there is nothing else to keep. If the promise was for them to live there forever then that failed spectacularly, as they have not done so. 2000 years nearly they did not live there, what does that tell you?
 
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Guojing

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Nobody here said it was a figure of speech, that's what I am telling you. Fulfilled means to complete, so there is nothing else to keep. If the promise was for them to live there forever then that failed spectacularly, as they have not done so. 2000 years nearly they did not live there, what does that tell you?

As I already said in the post of mine you replied to

So if you agree that God cannot lie (Numbers 23:19,Titus 1:2,Hebrews 6:18), if he told Abraham that it will be forever, it must be a promise yet to be fulfilled?

Is it then not clear that, following Romans 11:25-29, there will come a time in the future, after Jesus's 2nd coming, where the nation of Israel would indeed occupy that land, and it will indeed be forever?

If you disagree with me about this, its fine, we can agree to disagree.
 
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SilverSpoon

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As I already said in the post of mine you replied to

If you disagree with me about this, its fine, we can agree to disagree.

As you said what? If you think it means live in Israel forever, then God lied and the promise never came to be, because that did not happen. Romans 11 is not a matter of disagreement, it says explicitly that it references something already written, and I also showed you what / where it quotes in Isaiah.
 
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Guojing

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As you said what? If you think it means live in Israel forever, then God lied and the promise never came to be, because that did not happen. Romans 11 is not a matter of disagreement, it says explicitly that it references something already written, and I also showed you what / where it quotes in Isaiah.

I see, you do not see Romans 11:25-29 as a future promise. So naturally, you will not accept my point.

We can agree to disagree then.
 
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SilverSpoon

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I see, you do not see Romans 11:25-29 as a future promise. So naturally, you will not accept my point.

We can agree to disagree then.

Because those things already happened, the only way to believe it refers to the future is to believe Jesus never came to Zion the first time around. Isiah 59 was written before Jesus was born, and so when he was born in Zion and offered salvation, it came to be.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Intro

Christian Zionism is believed by many Christians (unknown percentage), and of course it is believed to have scriptural origins. I want to explore this idea here, and see if it holds up.

First we must define the belief : the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 were in accordance with Bible prophecy. Also believed is that Jews are "chosen" and still have a covenant with God.

What is the supposed basis for this doctrine? There is no explicit mention of a future state of Israel anywhere in the Old or New testament, however it is interpreted from various verses.

Abrahamic Covenant

One of them is such :

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and between thy seed after thee in their generations, by a perpetual covenant: to be a God to thee, and to thy seed after thee. (Genesis 17:7)


Seems rather clear, however the covenant (Abrahamic) has multiple parts. One is the land (Israel / Palestine). This one was already fulfilled when the ancient Kingdom of Israel was established :

41 The towns of the Levites in the territory held by the Israelites were forty-eight in all, together with their pasturelands. 42 Each of these towns had pasturelands surrounding it; this was true for all these towns. 43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. (Joshua 21:41-43)

Salvation of Israel Covenant

This is based on Romans 11, a Zionist favorite.

All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”


Seems clear again, however it's important to read carefully and have some biblical knowledge as always. The covenant part starts with "as it is written", it is referencing something already written. But what?

20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
declares the Lord.

21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.


Isaiah 59 is what. It's a reference to Jesus first coming. He came to Zion, that was the new covenant with those who became Christians. This is no small error! Not understanding this has people believing in some third covenant with a future state of Israel, which simply does not exist.

-- edit --

Further note, Israel here refers to those who accept Christ as evidenced by other verses :

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.” (Romans 9:6-9)

Jews Still Chosen?

Christian Zionists claim that Jews are still chosen, this requires scriptural evidence in the new testament. But what does the NT actually say?

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. (Colossians 3:11-12)

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1 Peter 2:9)

A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. (Romans 2 : 28-29)

Abundantly clear that God has no ethnic favorites, including Jews. Also clear that faith in Christ is what makes you chosen, and most Jews do not accept Him. What happens to those who don't accept Christ?

For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people." (Acts 3:23-24)

Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:5-6)

Clear.

Conclusion

In my research I have concluded that Christian Zionism is in fact not scriptural, and is based on cherry pick, misreading, and misunderstanding of the Bible. Please share your thoughts, thanks for reading.
I think for Christian Zionism to work, you really have to ignore the needs, history, perspectives, presence, and outlook of the Catholic and Orthodox Christians of the Holy Land.

They are Christians, too. They are the Original Christians. How do they feel about Israel? About Palestine? About the Jews’ return to the Land of Israel? About Judaism? About Hamas? Those would be wise questions to ask them.
 
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Der Alte

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I already stated "land that is much bigger..."
Israel never did occupy the entire land size that was promised in Genesis 15:18-21, not even under Joshua.
So when you say "that was fulfilled", what do you mean by fulfilled?

Nobody here said it was a figure of speech, that's what I am telling you. Fulfilled means to complete, so there is nothing else to keep. If the promise was for them to live there forever then that failed spectacularly, as they have not done so. 2000 years nearly they did not live there, what does that tell you?
Who failed in the promise God or Israel?
 
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SilverSpoon

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I think for Christian Zionism to work, you really have to ignore the needs, history, perspectives, presence, and outlook of the Catholic and Orthodox Christians of the Holy Land.

They are Christians, too. They are the Original Christians. How do they feel about Israel? About Palestine? About the Jews’ return to the Land of Israel? About Judaism? About Hamas? Those would be wise questions to ask them.

Not only that but you have to really cherry pick the New Testament apart and ignore the bulk of what it says. It says repeatedly that Christians are chosen, and that physical descent does not matter. It goes as far as redefining Jews as those who believe in Christ. Romans 11, their favorite cherry pick, clearly references the Old Testament, and Israel is explained as being people of Christ in the previous chapters.
 
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Guojing

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Well they lost it after it was given to them, so it wasn't meant to be held forever.

As I said, its because you assume Romans 11 is in the past, that is why you come to form this doctrine.

You are like saying, Abraham died without inheriting that land promise, therefore it was not meant for him, despite Hebrews 11:13.

In the age to come, Abraham will awaken again and reign with Israel in that promised land during the millennium reign of Christ (Daniel 12:1-2)
 
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SilverSpoon

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As I said, its because you assume Romans 11 is in the past, that is why you come to form this doctrine.

You are like saying, Abraham died without inheriting that land promise, therefore it was not meant for him, despite Hebrews 11:13.

In the age to come, Abraham will awaken again and reign with Israel in that promised land during the millennium reign of Christ (Daniel 12:1-2)

No, it's because those verses refer to the ancient Kingdom of Israel given to them long ago, and were already fulfilled in the Old Testament, I told you this before, you didn't pay attention.

And the Lord God gave to Israel all the land that he had sworn to give to their fathers: and they possessed it and dwelt in it.... Not so much as one word, which he had promised to perform unto them, was made void, but all came to pass. Josue 21:41-43

Gave past tense, already happened. Also Romans 11 being in the past is not an assumption if you accept that he was born in Zion and offered salvation already, you wouldn't be a Christian otherwise. Why would he come to Zion again and offer salvation again when he already has, Zionism is a nonsensical absurdity. There is no third covenant.
 
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Guojing

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No, it's because those verses refer to the ancient Kingdom of Israel given to them long ago, and were already fulfilled in the Old Testament, I told you this before, you didn't pay attention.

And the Lord God gave to Israel all the land that he had sworn to give to their fathers: and they possessed it and dwelt in it.... Not so much as one word, which he had promised to perform unto them, was made void, but all came to pass. Josue 21:41-43

Gave past tense, already happened. Also Romans 11 being in the past is not an assumption if you accept that he was born in Zion and offered salvation already, you wouldn't be a Christian otherwise. Why would he come to Zion again and offer salvation again when he already has, Zionism is a nonsensical absurdity. There is no third covenant.

Just because someone disagrees with your doctrine, does not mean they are not paying attention.
 
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SilverSpoon

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Just because someone disagrees with your doctrine, does not mean they are not paying attention.

The bible is what you disagree with, and I did not express any personal doctrine of mine. I already posted the verse (Joshua 21) that proves the land deal with the Jewish people was already fulfilled before, that's why I am saying you didn't pay attention.
 
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Guojing

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The bible is what you disagree with, and I did not express any personal doctrine of mine. I already posted the verse (Joshua 21) that proves the land deal with the Jewish people was already fulfilled before, that's why I am saying you didn't pay attention.

So if people disagree with what you believe in, they are disagreeing with scripture?
 
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SilverSpoon

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So if people disagree with what you believe in, they are disagreeing with scripture?

No, and nobody suggested such. You don't really like to read or understand what others are saying at all, do you? It's either that Joshua 21 is lying when it says that the land promise was fulfilled, or what you believe is in error, one or the other.
 
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SilverSpoon

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The bible is what you disagree with, and I did not express any personal doctrine of mine.

Is this not what you saying?

You already know what I said, no need to ask. Here is a question for you, think about it very carefully and pay attention to the wording.

Are these two statements the same? :

"The bible is what you disagree with, and I did not express any personal doctrine of mine."

"You disagreeing with me, means you disagree with the Bible"
 
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What is the supposed basis for this doctrine? There is no explicit mention of a future state of Israel anywhere in the Old or New testament, however it is interpreted from various verses.

Not sure what all is meant by Zionism, but there is Scripture evidence for the return of Judah back to the holy land, with God promising to not take them out anymore, and it is a prophecy specific to Judah, and does not include the ten lost tribes returning (even though God's Word says they will return also in final).

Abrahamic Covenant

One of them is such :

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and between thy seed after thee in their generations, by a perpetual covenant: to be a God to thee, and to thy seed after thee. (Genesis 17:7)


Seems rather clear, however the covenant (Abrahamic) has multiple parts. One is the land (Israel / Palestine). This one was already fulfilled when the ancient Kingdom of Israel was established :

41 The towns of the Levites in the territory held by the Israelites were forty-eight in all, together with their pasturelands. 42 Each of these towns had pasturelands surrounding it; this was true for all these towns. 43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. (Joshua 21:41-43)

Your assumption is misleading, because the Promises God gave to Abraham involve The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus showed this at the end of John 8 that He knew Abraham (see Genesis 18 also). And Paul in Galatians 3 says The Gospel was preached to Abraham, and linked the believing Gentiles being blessed through Abraham, and inherit with Abraham, and have become the children of Abraham. So the inheritance of the lands of promise is actually part of The Gospel, because in final it's the believing Israelites and believing Gentiles that are to inherit it with Abraham. Those Promises to Abraham continued to his son Isaac, and then to Jacob, then to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, so you cannot just end those promises with Abraham either. Can't leave Christ's Church out, sorry.

Salvation of Israel Covenant

This is based on Romans 11, a Zionist favorite.

All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”


Seems clear again, however it's important to read carefully and have some biblical knowledge as always. The covenant part starts with "as it is written", it is referencing something already written. But what?

20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
declares the Lord.

21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.


Isaiah 59 is what. It's a reference to Jesus first coming. He came to Zion, that was the new covenant with those who became Christians. This is no small error! Not understanding this has people believing in some third covenant with a future state of Israel, which simply does not exist.

-- edit --

Further note, Israel here refers to those who accept Christ as evidenced by other verses :

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.” (Romans 9:6-9)

You sure misrepresented a whole lot... of Old Testament Scripture.

In Romans 11:26, Paul was pointing to Isaiah 11:11-16; Isaiah 45:17, 25; Isaiah 54:6-10.

The Isaiah 59:17-20 verses are specifically... about Jesus Christ's 2nd coming to defeat His enemies, and redeem Israel...

Isa 59:17-20
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
KJV


Did you miss those parts in red which is about Christ's recompense upon His enemies on earth on the day of His return?

Lord Jesus' 1st coming was to die on the cross meek as a Lamb. His 2nd coming, which is still future, will be with a double-edged sword upon His enemies, and that's what those verses are about with His coming to Zion, so that is not about His 1st coming.


Jews Still Chosen?

Christian Zionists claim that Jews are still chosen, this requires scriptural evidence in the new testament. But what does the NT actually say?
....


I won't even repeat your completely bypassed... REMOVAL of Scripture, which you did by totally disregarding the Romans 11:25-32 Scripture about God having blinded Paul's brethren away from The Gospel. That subject about Paul's brethren the Jews being 'blinded' actually began back at Romans 11:14, so there's more points Paul covered about than what you bothered to cover.


Thus your conclusion is defunct, because Paul covers the requirement that his brethren the Jews MUST not remain in unbelief to be saved, so Paul quoting from Isaiah 59 is in agreement with Old Testament Scripture. How could he not be?


Now then. Let's face it. You have succumbed to a tradition of men against the unbelieving Jews. I am not a Jew, but I know better than to feed my mind with the poison of men's doctrines outside of God's Word.
 
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