Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

[Ttalkkugjil]

My point is that infant baptism is not believer's baptism.
The infant has no choice in the matter, nor knowledge of what it means.
Unless you can explain how it is.

Agreed that paedobaptism isn't credobaptism.

 

[BABerean2]

God’s plan isn't confined to the Jews. "In whom also you, having heard Truth, your salvation, in whom also, having trusted, you were sealed by the Spirit."

In the Gentiles' case also, as Paul shows in addressing the Ephesian church, God’s purpose was realized. They've been brought to faith in Jesus by accepting the Truth, the message which testifies of the truth, the Gospel which tells them of the salvation gained by Jesus. In this way they've been sealed with the Spirit.

When working faith, the Spirit comes into a person's heart, dwells in them, becomes their faith's seal and gives them the certainty that they're God's own. Preservation in the faith's the Spirit's work. She called us, enlightened us, sanctified us and kept us.

The most important thing about the word "baptism" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water, based on post #238 above.

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[Saint Steven]

Agreed that paedobaptism isn't credobaptism.

My understanding of this is that water baptism is a ceremony.
A ceremony is an outward sign of an inward reality.

Water baptism is a public testimony and witness to the baptizee's decision to follow Christ. We cannot make this decision for another.

It makes no sense to me that an unwilling/unaware participant is making a public testimony to follow Christ. And that this equates to salvation. I know that many churches teach this. And follow-up with Confirmation at the age of understanding.

But with that in mind, one has to wonder what was happening in the early church when we read this. I think the Mormons do this now. That's what their genealogical libraries are for. (I presume)

1 Corinthians 15:29
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

 

[Saint Steven]

The most important thing about the word "baptism" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water, based on post #238 above.

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I would like to challenge your position on this. I see in the scriptures a separate and secondary experience to water baptism and the Spirit that we receive at salvation. Specifically, the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the enduement of power.

John the Baptist described it as something other than the water baptism he was doing.

Luke 3:16
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jesus confirmed this in regard to the outpouring at Pentecost.

Acts 1:4-5
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After that we see the baptism in the Holy Spirit coming in different ways and at different times.

- At the house of Cornelius the Holy Spirit came on the Gentiles while Peter was still preaching.
- At Pentecost the Holy Spirit came on those 3000 believers who were water baptized.
- However, the baptized believers in Samaria did not receive the Spirit until the Apostles laid hands on them. Acts chapter eight.
- No report of any difficulties for the five thousand new believers in Acts chapter four.
- The newly baptized believers in Ephesus received the Holy Spirit baptism when Paul (not one of the 12) laid hands on them.
- Ananias (not an Apostle) was sent to Saul to lay hands on him for healing and to receive the Holy Spirit.

All of these example show us that the baptism with the Holy Spirit was a subsequent experience to both water baptism and salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

I can provide references for the above examples if need be. I assume you know the Bible well enough to have already been aware of these passages, or to easily find them.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

My understanding of this is that water baptism is a ceremony.
A ceremony is an outward sign of an inward reality.

Water baptism is a public testimony and witness to the baptizee's decision to follow Christ. We cannot make this decision for another.

Believer's baptism is something I'm quite familiar with. I've been a Baptist for around 20 years now, studied it (amongst other things) in seminary, and have myself been credobaptized.

It makes no sense to me that an unwilling/unaware participant is making a public testimony to follow Christ. And that this equates to salvation. I know that many churches teach this. And follow-up with Confirmation at the age of understanding.

Okay.

 

[Saint Steven]

Okay.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought you were arguing in favor of infant baptism. ???

 

[Hillsage]

I'm always concerned about applying unmeasurable qualifications to salvation.
We are saved by accepting (by faith) the finished work of the atonement. Paid in full.

As soon as you put any other requirement on it, how can it be measured?
Did you repent enough? (who knows?)
Could you have repented more? (sure)
Did you repent enough? (who knows?
It's a vicious circle.

Your spirit is OSAS when it is born again....no partial rebirths. Either you are or you are not spirit saved. THEN you start working out the salvation of your soul, which is very tough to measure. That's what the judgment seat of Christ is for, where every work will be judged. Those works will be a reflection as to how saved it became. No one has a saved body that I see. All are stepping closer to the grave every day.

Your spirit is, or is not, justified/saved. Your soul is being sanctified/saved. And nobody has a g body that is glorified/saved.

 

[Saint Steven]

Your spirit is OSAS when it is born again....no partial rebirths. Either you are or you are not spirit saved. THEN you start working out the salvation of your soul, which is very tough to measure. That's what the judgment seat of Christ is for, where every work will be judged. Those works will be a reflection as to how saved it became. No one has a saved body that I see. All are stepping closer to the grave every day.

Your spirit is, or is not, justified/saved. Your soul is being sanctified/saved. And nobody has a g body that is glorified/saved.

That's interesting. What do you make of this?

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Luke 16:26
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought you were arguing in favor of infant baptism. ???

I stand in support of infant baptism, yes. Which is not to say that I believe infants alone should be baptized. I believe that others who come to believe should also experience the Sacrament.

 

[Saint Steven]

I stand in support of infant baptism, yes. Which is not to say that I believe infants alone should be baptized. I believe that others who come to believe should also experience the Sacrament.

That's an unusual position for a Baptist of 20 years and a Seminarian. Why do you hold that position? It seems you should know better? Typically churches that support/administer infant baptism are adamantly against rebaptism at a later time.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

That's an unusual position for a Baptist of 20 years and a Seminarian. Why do you hold that position? It seems you should know better?

Better or different? My views began to change while in seminary. I began to study Luther's works. At first, baptismal regeneration's idea seemed strange to me. However, with the Spirit's guidance, I accepted it.

 

[Saint Steven]

Better or different? My views began to change while in seminary. I began to study Luther's works. At first, baptismal regeneration's idea seemed strange to me. However, with the Spirit's guidance, I accepted it.

How do you explain the "baptismal regeneration" of an nonconsenting infant?

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

How do you explain the "baptismal regeneration" of an nonconsenting infant?

The God I believe in doesn't require my consent to act. Does the God you believe in require yours?

 

[Hillsage]

That's interesting. What do you make of this?

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

I'd say if you're rightly dividing the word as to it's application you'd have to agree that it's talking about your spirit. Because your soul isn't immortal and your body is headed for the grave. Both of which disqualified them from this verse's declaration of 'crossing over' "to life" IMO.

MAT 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 16:26
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

This was spoken by Jesus when it was true. Jesus hadn't died and therefore.... "nor can anyone cross over".

 

[Saint Steven]

The God I believe in doesn't require my consent to act. Does the God you believe in require yours?

Not if it violates his word.

John 1:11-13
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Not if it violates his word.

John 1:11-13
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

God's children are born from God. God is their God. To God alone do they owe life. Regeneration is God's work, and it's God's work alone. By their receiving this testimony concerning Christ, this change has been wrought in the Christian. So, God has made them the divine natures' partakers. Faith is wrought by God through the Word. Thus the believers have life in them.

 

[Hillsage]

Better or different? My views began to change while in seminary. I began to study Luther's works. At first, baptismal regeneration's idea seemed strange to me. However, with the Spirit's guidance, I accepted it.

Interesting, because it was with the Spirit's guidance that I rejected it. I was infant baptized, confirmed and married in 'the church'. A divorce at 19 led me to quit the church and forsake God. Then at age 22 I actually got 'born again/saved' for the first time. I believe the only spirit I had before was the 'spirit of religion' which made me think I had the Spirit of God. 6 months after getting born again, I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and was attending a home group where we were studying water baptism. That was when I believe the Spirit convicted me that being baptized as an unbelieving and unrepenting baby, was simply that 'spirit of religion' motivated baptism. So I, along with 4 others who had the same experience as me all agreed with me, and we were water baptized. It was a baptism which we all felt was legitimate as well as biblical. Please share your biblical justification for infant baptism.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Please share your biblical justification for infant baptism.

Thank you for your invitation. However, I have already done so here at CF.

 

[Hillsage]

Seriously??? Well then tell me where it is, so I can go read it. HELLO!!!!

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Well then tell me where it is, so I can go read it. HELLO!!!!

Don't know how to use a forum's "Search" feature - is that your problem, friend?