Is baptism a requirement for salvation?

aiki · Oct 1, 2018

SaintCody777 said:
Baptism is a sacrament and the holy spirit entered Jesus recognizing Him as Gods son when Jesus got baptized.

The account of this event in Matthew 3:13-17 doesn't say the Holy Spirit entered Jesus (neither do the parallel accounts in Mark and Luke). All that happened was a divine acknowledgement of Christ as the Son of God. Jesus, then, didn't get saved when he was baptized by John. He was/is the Saviour; the one doing the saving! And he didn't become more God when the Holy Spirit lit upon him. The Holy Spirit rested upon Christ because he was already God in the flesh. So, this divine acknowledgement of Christ after his baptism by John doesn't really answer whether or not baptism is salvific.

JacksBratt · Oct 1, 2018

SaintCody777 said:
Baptism is a sacrament and the holy spirit entered Jesus recognizing Him as Gods son when Jesus got baptized.
One good question from the so called Bible believing Christians and Protestants, who think that Baptism is either not that important or necessary, that I find reasonable is 'what if a person trusts Jesus with his life and gets born again, in spirit, but on his way to Baptism, he gets killed unexpectedly, like in a car crash or a violent act?"
I'm sure that God knows his heart and he has His mercy on that person who was spiritually regenerate but unexpectedly died on his way to Baptism.

I like your scenario.

The question, in this regard, is:

Is the person saved because God knew their intent of being baptized?
Is the what qualifies us for salvation unique to each individual?
What if a person was intending to ask for salvation and intending to get baptized, but was killed before they did either.... Is their intent to do so also enough to provide salvation?

You see, I believe that baptism is important. We are told to be baptized in obedience to Christ.

However, I don't believe we are ever saved by what we intended to do. I believe that we are saved by what we believe in our hearts in relation to whom Christ is and what His work on the cross has done for us...and whether we accept Him or reject Him.

I don't believe we can "do" anything for our own salvation. So, therefore, we cannot fall short of being saved... as a result of something we did not do... eg: Baptism.

I believe that anyone that calls on Christs name and believes that He died for them on the cross and accepts that they are a sinner and need salvation.... they will be saved.

Then, they should get baptized in a public profession of faith.

Not David · Oct 1, 2018

dgiharris said:
I have to admit, it is threads like these in which I feel my faith slipping and dissolving away...

Why is there so much disagreement between those of us of Christian faith?

Ask a hundred physicists a basic physics question and you will get one answer.
Ask a hundred Christians a basic faith question and you get dozens of different answers.

WHen I look into my heart and my relationship with God, I can't see a baptism being a "requirement".

Obviously, being baptized is awesome, but for some situations it will be impossible. I'm former military, I've heard of situations where a soldier was shot in battle, is dying, and asks to receive Christ as his personal lord and savior. Now, assuming he is genuine and sincere, are you telling me that because he's not baptized this person who is going to die can't be saved?

No one is saying baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.

Not David · Oct 1, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
Which baptism? Water or Spirit

It's the same stuff.

Not David · Oct 1, 2018

JacksBratt said:
I like your scenario.

The question, in this regard, is:

Is the person saved because God knew their intent of being baptized?
Is the what qualifies us for salvation unique to each individual?
What if a person was intending to ask for salvation and intending to get baptized, but was killed before they did either.... Is their intent to do so also enough to provide salvation?

You see, I believe that baptism is important. We are told to be baptized in obedience to Christ.

However, I don't believe we are ever saved by what we intended to do. I believe that we are saved by what we believe in our hearts in relation to whom Christ is and what His work on the cross has done for us...and whether we accept Him or reject Him.

I don't believe we can "do" anything for our own salvation. So, therefore, we cannot fall short of being saved... as a result of something we did not do... eg: Baptism.

I believe that anyone that calls on Christs name and believes that He died for them on the cross and accepts that they are a sinner and need salvation.... they will be saved.

Then, they should get baptized in a public profession of faith.

What we intend to do is in our hearts.
Romans 10:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Does that means if someone didn't speak, he isn't saved?

thecolorsblend · Oct 1, 2018

David Cabrera said:
No one is saying baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.

I am. Some type of baptism is necessary.

Light of the East · Oct 1, 2018

AlexDTX said:
Just the early church fathers believed something does not make them right. There were many Beatles songs that I heard in my youth that took 50 years later for me to understand. The assumption that the closer to time that one lived to Jesus the more you know is a false assumption. Peter lived with Jesus for 3 years yet it took Paul to help him understand the Gospel was for Gentiles as well as Jews.

Post Script
Salvation is the new birth. Anything else is not salvation.

That could be true if it were one or two isolated Early Fathers. However, the fact that so-called "believer's baptism" did not start until 16 centuries after the Apostles is one strike against your idea. The fact that the Bible teaches "baptism for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) is a second strike against you. And the fact that there has to be a covenant-cutting ceremony to replace circumcision is the third strike.

There are also several other "strikes" which are problematic for your view. There was no council ever called to discuss baptism, unlike the issue of circumcision which we see in Acts 15 and the Jerusalem Council. If there was a sect of Christian belief teaching that baptism is salvific, (the traditional understanding) and one teaching that baptism is merely a sign given by one who is already "saved" (the man-made and invented position) then there would have been a council to discuss this and get to the truth. There was never a council.

I find it interesting how we in the 20th century somehow think we are smarter than the men who died for the Gospel rather than renounce Jesus. I would much sooner believe the men who learned directly from the Apostles than someone who came along 16 centuries later.

Light of the East · Oct 1, 2018

JacksBratt said:
Faith saves.... the baptism is the public profession of this faith.
The wedding marries.... the wedding ring is a public display of that marriage.

The ring is not necessary for the marriage to be valid...
Baptism is not necessary for the salvation to be valid..

If I was living alone in the woods and decided to accept Christ as my savior... and lived for another 25 years, on my own.. reading the bible praying, even listening to a church ministry every Sunday... and died right there in my cabin... am I saved? Or.... because I didn't "do" something.... die without salvation?

There is nothing required of me for my salvation because there is nothing on earth that I can do to contribute to it.

I am saved because of my faith in the work of Christ.

Baptism and a wedding ring (interesting, never heard that analogy before) are not the same thing.

Baptism is the physical means by which we seal the covenant we make with Christ through the action of our bodies. It also symbolizes our death, burial, and resurrection in Christ.

Wedding ring does not seal the marriage. Do you know what does?

Alithis · Oct 1, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Becoming a new creation in Christ is not accomplished by a man baptizing another man by earthly water, but by Him pouring His Spirit into us.
The water Jesus spoke of is the Spirit indwelling a person, you pour new wine into a new wine skin otherwise it would burst, break.
We are saved by His mercy, not according to our acts of righteousness. We are justified by HIS GRACE.

Titus 3
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

John 7

37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.

38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

sad to be only quoting PARTS of scripture

Alithis · Oct 1, 2018

Neostarwcc said:
That is another interpretation of John 3:5 that I've heard. But I think the physical birth is more closer to what Jesus meant by being born of water because of what Nicodemus asked in John 3:4 and how Jesus responded in John 3:6. But you're right that the holy sprit also baptizes with water.

what verse states that the holy spirit baptizes with water??
what on earth is that about ?

Alithis said:
GOD does not change - but the covenant he made has - he made a NEW ONE .
so lets look at it another way with 2 questions to consider 1- are you wiling to stand before god teaching people they need not get baptized ? im confident your not willing to do so .
2 Did you get baptized - because if you did and you did so with NO belief that God does anything by it as a result of obedience then you have never been baptized in faith in Christ .-

Why did the lord Jesus not teach his own hand picked disciples to stop baptizing people because it was not required ... ? have you ever known God anywhere to declare that people should do a pointless meaning less task that is not required to bring about a result ?
its like telling people how to bake bread and half way through the recipe go take a bath .. - i for sure KNOW the lord does not tell any one to do an UN-required task ever .
IN fact Not only does the lord Jesus NOT tell them to stop , he oversees the increase of water baptism.- WHY would he do that for a meaningless Unrequired action ?-
(because it is neither meaningless NOR unrequired . it is for living that we die in Christ and rise again in him that we may live a life unto God . if your planning to die the moment you believe in Christ then go right ahead , but if your planning to live in him and he in you and go do what he has for you to do -then best start with water baptism -its required .)

yes its one of those sentences few read because its been overshadowed by the insertion of verse and chapter breaks . But at the beginning of john ch 4 it states .." When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) ..... oh YES there it is , not only did the lord JESUS the living word and manifestation of the most High God manifested in flesh not stop them baptizing , he encouraged them to INCREASE in doing it . because he knew the power of it - and so does the adversary - and it is why it has been one of the three most attacked and undermined sections of the gospel ( repentance and the ceasing of sinful deeds - water baptism - baptism of the Holy Spirit )

i encourage you to think again and change your mind . unless your willing and confident to stand before the Lord Jesus himself and explain to him why you taught people that water baptism is unrequired And in opposition to His command ... Then i would not DARE to even remotely insinuate such a thing .

Alithis · Oct 1, 2018

JoeP222w said:
As a requirement for salvation, yes, because baptism is not a requirement for salvation. Read my words carefully. Baptism follows after salvation in obedience to Christ. If you claim it a requirement for salvation, I don't see where you have shown that from scripture. And if you claim that baptism is a requirement for salvation, how is that not works based righteousness? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Are you saying that someone who has a physical impairment that would not allow them to be baptized is not saved and never could be saved?

Yes, I have been baptized. But again, not so that I would be saved. I was baptized when I was already a believer in Jesus Christ.

And I never claimed that baptism is meaningless or unimportant or God does not use it. But baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

You have misunderstood my position. So this question is moot.

Again, you have misunderstood my position. I never claimed that God requires us to do meaningless things. So this question is moot as well.

Since this is a continuation of misrepresentation of my position, not going to answer this segment.

Re-emphasis of your misunderstanding of my position on your part. No response needed here since this is not my position.

i will reword it since your playing with words
-is obedience a requirement for salvation

since the disobedient and the rebellious do not inherit eternal life we know it is.
is water baptism obedience?
is obedience a requirement of eternal life?

Alithis · Oct 1, 2018

aiki said:
"Presents it as a whole"? A whole what, exactly?

Have you asked yourself why, if baptism is salvific, Paul only baptized Crispus and Gaius? Why would he refrain from baptizing other Corinthian believers if baptism saves a person? Was he willing to let those to whom he had preached the Gospel and who had believed it remain under the jeopardy of hell until someone else baptized them? That seems like a very unloving thing to do. Why, if it was in any believer's power to bring someone out from under the jeopardy of eternal damnation by baptizing them, wouldn't they do so? How can it be loving to neglect to rescue a person from hell? But Paul didn't. He only baptized a couple of the Corinthian believers and was glad he hadn't baptized any others! Yikes! What was the matter with Paul?! Nothing, nothing at all. Paul just didn't think baptism was salvific. His cavalier attitude toward baptism makes this pretty clear, I think.

i think this doesnt warrant reply ,its based on opinion and guess work ,not scripture.

paul was sent to preach the Gospel-right?

phillip was also sent to do the same.
and upon hearing the gospel the ethiopian eunach said - here is water what hinders me from being baptised?
ask your self , if water baptism is not Part of the gospel ,how did the eunach know about it.
answer: because phillip preached the Gospel to him.
anyone preaching the Gospel who excludes water baptism is failing to preach the Gospel.
a command to be baptised ..is not optional

Tutorman · Oct 1, 2018

ItIsFinished! said:
Nothing was added. I explained what I meant.
Baptism doesn't and hasn't saved one soul ever.

You will have to take that up with God

Alithis · Oct 1, 2018

SaintCody777 said:
Baptism is a sacrament and the holy spirit entered Jesus recognizing Him as Gods son when Jesus got baptized.
One good question from the so called Bible believing Christians and Protestants, who think that Baptism is either not that important or necessary, that I find reasonable is 'what if a person trusts Jesus with his life and gets born again, in spirit, but on his way to Baptism, he gets killed unexpectedly, like in a car crash or a violent act?"
I'm sure that God knows his heart and he has His mercy on that person who was spiritually regenerate but unexpectedly died on his way to Baptism.

i dont see any one debating that point.
but as pointed out elsewhere, baptism is so a person can Die in christ and be raised up to live a new life (here on earth)in Christ .
so if your not planning to live a moment longer,-do the math

Natsumi Lam · Oct 1, 2018

David Cabrera said:
It's the same stuff.

Not according to the Word it is differentiated in cases.

Please see response below.

aiki · Oct 1, 2018

Alithis said:
i think this doesnt warrant reply ,its based on opinion and guess work ,not scripture.

This is a not-unexpected reply. I didn't think you'd have much of answer to it.

Alithis said:
paul was sent to preach the Gospel-right?

Among other things, yes. But see my comments in my last post to you.

Alithis said:
phillip was also sent to do the same.
and upon hearing the gospel the ethiopian eunach said - here is water what hinders me from being baptised?

Uh huh. Does the story indicate that the eunuch was saved after, or as a consequence of, being baptized? No. But there is a very strong emphasis on Phillip's part upon belief preceding baptism. That makes sense since we read many times in the New Testament that belief - not baptism - is the really crucial thing in our being saved.

Alithis said:
ask your self , if water baptism is not Part of the gospel ,how did the eunach know about it.
answer: because phillip preached the Gospel to him.

Well, hang on. It doesn't follow that, because the eunuch knew about baptism, Phillip had made it part-and-parcel of how one was saved. Why couldn't Phillip have mentioned it as the important - but non-salvific - next step after one is saved? It seems to me this is exactly what Phillip did and why the eunuch believed first (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; 1 John 5:10-13) and then was baptized.

Alithis said:
anyone preaching the Gospel who excludes water baptism is failing to preach the Gospel.

Nope. Wrong.

Alithis said:
a command to be baptised ..is not optional

Right. It's not optional. But not because baptism has any salvific power.

Alithis · Oct 1, 2018

im interested : How many debating this topic are activly sharing the Gospel and Baptising people?
(Baptism meaning to Dip by full submersion "burial" in water )

Alithis · Oct 1, 2018

aiki said:
This is a not-unexpected reply. I didn't think you'd have much of answer to it.

Among other things, yes. But see my comments in my last post to you.

Uh huh. Does the story indicate that the eunuch was saved after, or as a consequence of, being baptized? No. But there is a very strong emphasis on Phillip's part upon belief preceding baptism. That makes sense since we read many times in the New Testament that belief - not baptism - is the really crucial thing in our being saved.

Well, hang on. It doesn't follow that, because the eunuch knew about baptism, Phillip had made it part-and-parcel of how one was saved. Why couldn't Phillip have mentioned it as the important - but non-salvific - next step after one is saved? It seems to me this is exactly what Phillip did and why the eunuch believed first (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; 1 John 5:10-13) and then was baptized.

Nope. Wrong.

Right. It's not optional. But not because baptism has any salvific power.

your intent on dissecting the gospel into pieces.
im not interested.
its a whole.
not a finger food

thecolorsblend · Oct 1, 2018

Alithis said:
im interested : How many debating this topic are activly sharing the Gospel and Baptising people?
(Baptism meaning to Dip by full submersion "burial" in water )

Some people have a gift for evangelizing the unbeliever. If I have a gift, it's evangelizing Protestants.

Natsumi Lam · Oct 1, 2018

David Cabrera said:
It's the same stuff.

John 3:5
3:5 [ Greek Font Size: BYZ / TR | Jesus answered (5662) , Verily, verily, I say (5719) unto thee, Except a man be born (5686) of water and of the Spirit, he cannot * (5736) enter (5629) into the kingdom of God.

apekriqh (5662) Ihsouv, Amhn amhn legw (5719) soi, ean mh tiv gennhqh (5686) ec udatov kai pneumatov, ou dunatai (5736)eiselqein (5629) eiv thn basileian tou qeou.

born which is 1080 means to be born of natural birth and

to engender, cause to arise, excite
in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
of God making Christ his son
of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

Holy Spirit Infilling Examples: Differentiation between baptism of water and Spirit.

Acts 1: 4 Commanded to wait for the Promise of the Father.

Acts 2:37-39 HS is a gift of God, given in sundry ways.

Acts 8:5-8, 14-17 Filled with the HS after being baptized in the name of JC.

Acts 10:15-20 Peter told not to call anything God calls clean, unclean.

Acts 10:34-48 HS fall on Gentiles also.

Acts 11:12-18 Filled with the HS before baptized in the water.

Acts 19:1-6 Disciples of John the Baptist are filled with the HS after they were baptized previously.

Is baptism a requirement for salvation?

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