Ireneaus on End Times

BABerean2 said:

The greatest error of modern Dispensational Theology is the claim that modern Jews will be saved outside of the Church, during a future time period.

There is no Plan B, outside of the Church.

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BABerean2 said:

Many Dispensationalists have claimed that the Book of Matthew was written to the Jews. This is a true statement, because the book was written to the Jewish Church.
Christ announced His Church in Matthew chapter 16 and the Great Commission to the Church is at the end of Matthew's Gospel.
Why does this matter?
Because many Dispensationalists have claimed that the Book of Matthew is not for the Church.

Dispensationalists must ignore the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Some Dispensationalists have recently claimed that the New Covenant is very important to their doctrine.
However, they have yet to provide any evidence for this fact in what they have written.

The greatest error of modern Dispensational Theology is the claim that modern Jews will be saved outside of the Church, during a future time period.

Romans chapter 11 says otherwise.
The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.
Based on Romans 11, the only salvation for those broken off of the Olive Tree, is to be grafted back into the tree, through faith in Christ.

There is no Plan B, outside of the Church.

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Biblewriter said:

Yes. That is the concept taught in Dispensationalism.

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Biblewriter said:

We teach the first because the scriptures explicitly teach it. For no theory on the timing of the rapture places it after the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the world. This is because there is absolutely zero scriptural justification for even imagining that the rapture takes place after that time. But Isaiah 66 very plainly teaches that the restoration of Israel to its ancient homeland will take place after that event.

And Dispensationalism has never taught, implied, or even imagined, that God ever had a "plan A" and a "Plan B." It is an essential part of Dispensationalism that all the dispensations are components of God's work on a single master plan that was already in place before the seven days of Genesis 1.

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Biblewriter said:

Actually pronoun usage is a very strong argument in attempting to determine what was actually meant in a statement whose meaning is being debated.

We need to realize that in all languages, "we" and "they" are two entirely different concepts, as are "us" and "them." Now a translator may indeed honestly interchange the words "we" and "us," or the words "they" and "them." But no translator could honestly interchange the words "we" and "they," nor the words "us" and "them."

If Irenaeus meant that the church would be "suddenly caught up" before the "great tribulation," then the change in his ponouns was obviously necessary and appropriate.

If on the other hand he did not mean that "the church" would be "suddenly caught up" before the "great tribulation," the change in pronouns would make no sense whatsoever.

But, to return to the basic comment which we are discussing. The grammatical construction "when A happens, B happens," has two possible meanings. It can mean that A happens before B. Or it can mean that A and B happen at the same time. But it cannot mean that B happens before A.

So it is absolutely clear that Irenaeus was not saying that the "great tribulation" will take place before the church is "suddenly caught up." The grammar simply does not allow this interpretation.

it to return to the A's and B's. It is indeed true that the construction "when A happens, B happens" can mean that A and B happen at the same time. But that meaning is only possible when A and B occupy (at least approximately) the same time intervals. And the construction of this statement by Irenaeus does not allow that interpretation. For Irenaeus clearly taught, further on, that he "great tribulation" would last three and a half years. (See the sections quoted above.) Now an event that happens "suddenly" cannot take place at the same time as an event that last three and a half years.

So both the grammatical construction of this sentence and the change in pronouns that Irenaeus made at this point, both clearly indicate that he was saying that the church would be "suddenly caught up" before the "great tribulation."

But I need to once more stress that I consider it serious bad doctrine to claim that this gives any authority whatsoever to any doctrine. My only reason for pointing these things out is to disprove, as false, the claim that both Dispensationalism in general and and the doctrine of a "rapture" before the "great tribulation," were innovations that were never taught before the 1800s.

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miknik5 said:

Biblewriter,

7 years are determined
If iranaeus notes the 3 1/2 year period as the "great tribulation" that is halfway through the 7 year tribulation which begins with the restoring of Israel

The rapture would have to be mid-trib

But up to that tune, many believers will die

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miknik5 said:

There is no plan B outside of THE GOSPEL

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Biblewriter said:

If you go back and read what I posted, That is exactly what I said, that in modern terms, the position of Irenaeus would be called Mid trib. But, as he only saw the last half of the week as the "great tribulation," this was pre-trib in his system.

Ans as a side note, the scriptures only call the last half of the week "great tribulation."

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Biblewriter said:

And as I said, Dispensationalist do not teach that there is a plan B.

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miknik5 said:

How do you know that the rapture happen before the restoration begins?

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miknik5 said:

And when you say the restoration

You are talking about the physical restoration of Israel since the unbelieving Jew will enter into this work during the time of the tribulation
Specifically, the temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will be reinstated

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miknik5 said:

And who do you think will be killed as hinderers of this work

But the believing Christian

You believe the restoration will happen after the rapture

But that isn't what Daniel noted
when he said it will be rebuilt during troublous times

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Biblewriter said:

I gave the reasons. Read what I posted.



This is not what the scriptures teach. You will not find even one ene]=d time prophecy, anywhere in the entire Bible, that days anything about Judah, that is, "the Jews," returning to the land. The only prophecy that says anything at all about that was about the return from Babylon.

The prophecies about the end time return all say "Israel," not "Judah." There two terms are not synonyms. Judah has two possible meanings. It either refers to the tribe of Judah, or it refers to the southern kingdom of Judah and Benjamin. Israel, likewise, had two meanings, it either meant the entire twelve tribes, or it meant the northern kingdom composed of the ten tribes.

But in the entire Bible, Israel never means Judah, and Judah never means Israel.



You are quoting from the KJV, which reads:
" Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Daniel 9:25

This is a reference to the times in which the street and the wall were built in ancient times. This took 49 years, seven weeks, the straight of times. then, after an additional sixty -two weeks, Messiah would come. Just as He actually did come, 483 years (7 x 69) after the order went forth.

But I am not the one who said the the return of Israel would take place after the Lord comes "with fire, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." This is clearly taught in Isaiah 66.

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miknik5 said:

You sure can I understand deny that currently in Jerusalem there are those who are planning already to rebuild the temple

That will be troublous times for anyone who stands in their way

Because they will think that these are troublers interfering with the work of GOD and many Christians who speak up trying to correct their older unbelieving Jewish brothers will be killed

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Biblewriter said:

We have gotten off the subject of this thread, which is what Irenaeus taught. Whether or not he was correct in his teaching is a different subject.

Let's return to the subject, and save discussions of what constitutes correct doctrine for another thread.

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miknik5 said:

No

There is a seven year tribulation
And this fade one will make a covenant which the unbelieving Jews will embrace as wonderful!!the rebuilding of the eaerhky temple

Which is NOT...wonderful

Let us not pass over that part

It's what will cause the "wounds received in the house of my friends"

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miknik5 said:

What you are saying is that like John called "come up here" in Revelation Iraneuas also "saw" the last half of the week from that viewpoint/perspective?

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Biblewriter said:

But Irenaeus also taught the main elements of Covenant Theology. This may seem confusing to modern minds. But we need to remember that this was well over a thousand years before either Dispensationalism or Covenant Theology were reduced to a formal system of doctrine. For Covenant Theology was first reduced to a formal doctrine in the 1500s, and Dispensationalism several hundred years later.

So Irenaeus also said:

“Then, too, Isaiah himself has plainly declared that there shall be joy of this nature at the resurrection of the just, when he says: ‘The dead shall rise again; those, too, who are in the tombs shall arise, and those who are in the earth shall rejoice. For the dew from Thee is health to them.’ And this again Ezekiel also says: ‘Behold, I will open your tombs, and will bring you forth out of your graves; when I will draw my people from the sepulchres, and I will put breath in you, and ye shall live; and I will place you on your own land, and ye shall know that I am the Lord.’ And again the same speaks thus: ‘These things saith the Lord, I will gather Israel from all nations whither they have been driven, and I shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the sons of the nations: and they shall dwell in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. And they shall dwell in it in peace; and they shall build houses, and plant vineyards, and dwell in hope, when I shall cause judgment to fall among all who have dishonoured them, among those who encircle them round about; and they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and the God of their fathers.’ Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham; and for this reason, that we may know that He who in the New Testament ‘raises up from the stones children unto Abraham,’ is He who will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall be saved from all the nations, Jeremiah says: ‘Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, who led the children of Israel from the north, and from every region whither they had been driven; He will restore them to their own land which He gave to their fathers.’”(Against Heresies, book V, chapter XXXIV, section 1.)

Thus we see that Irenaeus said that the seed of Abraham is the Church, and through that concept he applied the Old Testament prophecies about the return of Israel to the church. This, again, is an element of Covenant Theology and is wholly incompatible with Dispensationalism.

So it would be a serious mistake for anyone to try to assign Irenaeus, or any other ancient writer, to any particular modern system of interpretation, other than that all the early Christian commentators were solid futurists.

This can be seen in a comment penned by Jerome in the fifth century. He said, concerning Daniel 7, "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings... Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings will bow their necks to the victor." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” pg. 77, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

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Brian Mcnamee said:

God confirmed the covenant with the land placing no restriction on Abraham. God alone passed through and consumed with fire the offering Abraham had made. God made another promise that in Abraham's seed all the nations of the world would be blessed. The genealogy went from Eve with the promise the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent.

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