Ireneaus on End Times

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Church Father Ireneaus has been discussed on another thread, and a suggestion was made by brother Postview that we should study what he had to say indepth. I think that is a great idea, as this seems to be a person we can all learn from. So, to scholars all, post your comments here.

 

[miknik5]

Church Father Ireneaus has been discussed on another thread, and a suggestion was made by brother Postview that we should study what he had to say indepth. I think that is a great idea, as this seems to be a person we can all learn from. So, to scholars all, post your comments here.

What was his view on the end times

 

[Biblewriter]

We should probably start with the sequence of coming events that Irenaeus saw in the scriptures.

“In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: ‘And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.’ It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXVI, section 1)

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXIX, section 1)

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that ‘many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXX, section 3)

“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: ‘And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,’ And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 1)

“And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the new earth. For after the times of the kingdom, he says, ‘I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them.’ And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the general resurrection and the judgment, mentioning ‘the dead, great and small.’ ‘The sea,’ he says, ‘gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover,’ he says, ‘the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and death and hell were sent into the lake of fire, the second death.’ Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal fire. ‘And if any one,’ it is said, ‘was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire.’ And after this, he says, ‘I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth have passed away; also there was no more sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, as a bride adorned for her husband.’ ‘And I heard,’ it is said, ‘a great voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them as their God. And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, because the former things have passed away.’ Isaiah also declares the very same: ‘For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and there shall be no remembrance of the former, neither shall the heart think about them, but they shall find in it joy and exultation.’ Now this is what has been said by the apostle: ‘For the fashion of this world passeth away.’ To the same purpose did the Lord also declare, ‘Heaven and earth shall pass away.’ When these things, therefore, pass away above the earth, John, the Lord’s disciple, says that the new Jerusalem above shall [then] descend, as a bride adorned for her husband; and that this is the tabernacle of God, in which God will dwell with men. Of this Jerusalem the former one is an image—that Jerusalem of the former earth in which the righteous are disciplined beforehand for incorruption and prepared for salvation.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 2)

In this sequence of quotations, we see the following sequence clearly spelled out:

1. In the last times the Roman Empire shall be partitioned among ten kings.

2. One of these ten kings will slay three of the others, subject the rest to his power, and put the Church to flight.

3. When the church is “suddenly caught up from” the nations there will be great tribulation which will be “the last contest of the righteous.”

4. The Antichrist will reign for three years and six months.

5. The Antichrist and his followers will be destroyed when the Lord comes in the clouds.

6. The just will be resurrected after the coming of Antichrist.

7. The righteous will reign in the earth.

8. The survivors of the tribulation will serve in the kingdom and multiply on the earth.

9. After the kingdom will come the general resurrection and judgement.

10. After the judgment will come the new heavens and new earth.

 

[Biblewriter]

Irenaeus also taught the essence of dispensationalism in the following statements:

“Therefore the Son of the Father declares [Him] from the beginning, inasmuch as He was with the Father from the beginning, who did also show to the human race prophetic visions, and diversities of gifts, and His own ministrations, and the glory of the Father, in regular order and connection, at the fitting time for the benefit [of mankind]. For where there is a regular succession, there is also fixedness; and where fixedness, there suitability to the period; and where suitability, there also utility. And for this reason did the Word become the dispenser of the paternal grace for the benefit of men, for whom He made such great dispensations, revealing God indeed to men, but presenting man to God, and preserving at the same time the invisibility of the Father, lest man should at any time become a despiser of God, and that he should always possess something towards which he might advance; but, on the other hand, revealing God to men through many dispensations, lest man, failing away from God altogether, should cease to exist.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book IV, chapter XX, section 7.)

Before we go on, we need to notice certain key parts of this statement. Irenaeus said that God has “from the beginning” shown “to the human race prophetic visions” “in regular order and connection, at the fitting time,” and in “a regular succession,” with “suitability to the period.” And we particularly need to notice his statement that the Word was “revealing God to men through many dispensations.”

A little further on in the same chapter, Irenaeus clarified this by saying, “The only-begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him];’ and He does Himself also interpret the Word of the Father as being rich and great); not in one figure, nor in one character, did He appear to those seeing Him, but according to the reasons and effects aimed at in His dispensations, as it is written in Daniel.” And further down in the same section, he added, “Thus does the Word of God always preserve the outlines, as it were, of things to come, and points out to men the various forms (species), as it were, of the dispensations of the Father, teaching us the things pertaining to God.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book IV, chapter XX, section 11.)

And a few chapters later, Irenaeus further said, “There is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong,) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book IV, chapter XXVIII, section 2.)

We already noticed in the first quotation we examined that Irenaeus said that the Word was “revealing God to men through many dispensations,” and that he said that this was done “at the fitting time,” in “a regular succession,” with “suitability to the period.” Now we see that he added that the Word “has been always present with the human race,” and saved various individuals “according to the class to which they belong.”

All of this was about past dispensations, but Irenaeus not only spoke of past dispensations, but of future ones as well, saying, “Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God’s dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature; and it is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXII, section 1.)

In this short summary, I have included only a few statements that summarized his thoughts on the matter. But he spoke of these things many times, using the word dispensation, or its plural form dispensations, well over eighty times. He explicitly named a few of these dispensations, namely “the dispensation of the law,” (book III, chapter XI, section 7, and again in book III, chapter XV, section 3) which he also called “the Levitical Dispensation,” (book IV, Title of chapter XVII.) “the Mosaic dispensation,” (book IV, chapter XXXVI, section 2.) and “the legal dispensation.” (book III, chapter X, section 2 and the title of book V, chapter VIII.) He used this last term a third time, contrasting it with “the new dispensation of liberty” in book III, chapter X, section 4. Finally, he referred to “the future dispensation of the human race.” (book III, chapter XXII, section 3.) We should also note that he used the term the “dispensations of God,” eight times, in book I, chapter X, section 1, book I, chapter XVI, section 3, book II, chapter XXV, section 3, book III, chapter XI, section 9, book IV, chapter XX, section 10, book IV, chapter XXI, section 3, book IV, chapter XXIII, section 1, and book IV, chapter XXXIII, section 1.

Irenaeus insisted that his doctrine of the dispensations was what the church had always taught, saying, ““The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents...” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book I, chapter X, section 1.) He said again that “Where, therefore, the gifts of the Lord have been placed, there it behoves us to learn the truth, [namely,] from those who possess that succession of the Church which is from the apostles, and among whom exists that which is sound and blameless in conduct, as well as that which is unadulterated and incorrupt in speech. For these also preserve this faith of ours in one God who created all things; and they increase that love [which we have] for the Son of God, who accomplished such marvellous dispensations for our sake: and they expound the Scriptures to us without danger, neither blaspheming God, nor dishonouring the patriarchs, nor despising the prophets.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book IV, chapter XXVI, section 5.)

 

[Biblewriter]

But Irenaeus also taught the main elements of Covenant Theology. This may seem confusing to modern minds. But we need to remember that this was well over a thousand years before either Dispensationalism or Covenant Theology were reduced to a formal system of doctrine. For Covenant Theology was first reduced to a formal doctrine in the 1500s, and Dispensationalism several hundred years later.

So Irenaeus also said:

“Then, too, Isaiah himself has plainly declared that there shall be joy of this nature at the resurrection of the just, when he says: ‘The dead shall rise again; those, too, who are in the tombs shall arise, and those who are in the earth shall rejoice. For the dew from Thee is health to them.’ And this again Ezekiel also says: ‘Behold, I will open your tombs, and will bring you forth out of your graves; when I will draw my people from the sepulchres, and I will put breath in you, and ye shall live; and I will place you on your own land, and ye shall know that I am the Lord.’ And again the same speaks thus: ‘These things saith the Lord, I will gather Israel from all nations whither they have been driven, and I shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the sons of the nations: and they shall dwell in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. And they shall dwell in it in peace; and they shall build houses, and plant vineyards, and dwell in hope, when I shall cause judgment to fall among all who have dishonoured them, among those who encircle them round about; and they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and the God of their fathers.’ Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham; and for this reason, that we may know that He who in the New Testament ‘raises up from the stones children unto Abraham,’ is He who will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall be saved from all the nations, Jeremiah says: ‘Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, who led the children of Israel from the north, and from every region whither they had been driven; He will restore them to their own land which He gave to their fathers.’”(Against Heresies, book V, chapter XXXIV, section 1.)

Thus we see that Irenaeus said that the seed of Abraham is the Church, and through that concept he applied the Old Testament prophecies about the return of Israel to the church. This, again, is an element of Covenant Theology and is wholly incompatible with Dispensationalism.

So it would be a serious mistake for anyone to try to assign Irenaeus, or any other ancient writer, to any particular modern system of interpretation, other than that all the early Christian commentators were solid futurists.

This can be seen in a comment penned by Jerome in the fifth century. He said, concerning Daniel 7, "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings... Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings will bow their necks to the victor." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” pg. 77, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

When the church is “suddenly caught up from” the nations there will be great tribulation which will be “the last contest of the righteous.”

So, he believed that the church would be "suddenly caught up", that speaks to the rapture being imminent.

 

[Biblewriter]

So, he believed that the church would be "suddenly caught up", that speaks to the rapture being imminent.

“‘And he will cause a mark [to be put] in the forehead and in the right hand, that no one may be able to buy or sell, unless he who has the mark of the name of the beast or the number of his name; and the number is six hundred and sixty-six,’ that is, six times a hundred, six times ten, and six units. [He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years.
“For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: ‘Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested upon the seventh day from all His works.’This is an account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; and in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the sixth thousand year.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXVII, sections 2-3)

Irenaeus further said,

“And again He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life.” For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXIII, section 2)

So Irenaeus clearly taught that the time when God destroys the Antichrist will be at the end of the earth’s six thousandth year. Now if he was using the chronology of the Hebrew text of the Old Testament, he would have thought that all this would take place nearly two thousand years into his future. But at this time almost all Christians used the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek. This translation added significant numbers of years to many of the time periods given in the Old Testament, making the age of our present creation at the time of the birth of Jesus about five and a half thousand years, instead of the familiar four thousand years given in the Hebrew text. So he most likely thought that all this would take place only hundreds of years into their future, rather than thousands of years. But regardless of whether he thought these things would take place hundreds or thousands of years later, he placed them far into his own future.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

So he most likely thought that all this would take place only hundreds of years into their future, rather than thousands of years. But regardless of whether he thought these things would take place hundreds or thousands of years later, he placed them far into his own future.

So are you saying he expected these things in his own lifetime or within his generation?

 

[Biblewriter]

But returning to the words "suddenly caught up." The full statement of this was:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1)


Here we find a clear teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture. But Irenaeus also wrote:

“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule;” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 35, paragraph 1)


Here we see this same ancient writer just as explicitly saying that “the resurrection of the just” “takes place after the coming of Antichrist.” This appears to flatly contradict his other statement. But is this correct? First, we need to notice that Irenaeus did not say that “the resurrection of the just” takes place after the reign of Antichrist. He only said it “takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule.” To see the significance of this, we need to consider another statement from this same ancient document:

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, paragraph 4)


Here we find first, a distinct statement that Antichrist would reign for three years and six months. But also a distinct statement that this three years and six months would be after “this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world.” Thus we see that Irenaeus placing “the resurrection of the just” “after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule,” was not saying the rapture would be after the three and a half year reign of Antichrist. Rather, he placed the rapture at the beginning of that three and a half year reign. That is, he was saying that the time of “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be” was the three and a half year reign of Antichrist.

Irenaeus very clearly put the church in at least the first part of the time of Antichrist, as we can see in the following:

“‘And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.’ It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 26, paragraph 1)


This is the only place Irenaeus used the word “church” in regard to these events, other that the place where he explicitly said “the Church shall be suddenly caught up” before the “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” But he used the word “we,” which certainly seems to have the same meaning, here:

“But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 30, paragraph 4)


These last two statements make it very clear that Irenaeus placed the rapture at least after “the coming of Antichrist.” We have already noticed that in statements about events before the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, he used the words “the church” and “we.” But in his statements about persecutions during the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, he changed this terminology. We remember that in his statement about the church being “suddenly caught up,” he called the tribulation “the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” He used the term “the righteous” again when he spoke of the faithful in that time in this statement:

“For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man’s coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 2)


We remember that Irenaeus used this same term in speaking of the beginning of the kingdom, saying, “bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” He also used a second term for these faithful ones during that time, calling them “saints” in the following statements:

“Daniel too, looking forward to the end of the last kingdom, i.e., the ten last kings, amongst whom the kingdom of those men shall be partitioned, and upon whom the son of perdition shall come, declares that ten horns shall spring from the beast, and that another little horn shall arise in the midst of them, and that three of the former shall be rooted up before his face. He says: ‘And, behold, eyes were in this horn as the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things, and his look was more stout than his fellows. I was looking, and this horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them, until the Ancient of days came and gave judgment to the saints of the most high God, and the time came, and the saints obtained the kingdom.’ Then, further on, in the interpretation of the vision, there was said to him: ‘The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall excel all other kingdoms, and devour the whole earth, and tread it down, and cut it in pieces. And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time,’ that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 3)

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’ Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 4)


We need to notice that both of these statements are about the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, and thus speak of a time after Irenaeus placed the “resurrection of the just.”


Why are the exact words Irenaeus used significant? Because a doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture requires words like “the church” or “we” in statements about the godly during events up to and through the time “the Church shall be suddenly caught up.” But when speaking of times after the rapture, the proper (and scriptural) terms for godly people are “the righteous” or “saints.” Again, the doctrine requires a different term for those who are resurrected at the time of the rapture, for that resurrection includes Old Testament believers who were thus not members of the church. And this is exactly what Irenaeus did, calling the resurrection by its scriptural name of “the resurrection of the just.”

Now some will want to discount any claim that Irenaeus was intentionally using well selected terminology in these statements. But he used the same precision in his comments about recognizing the Antichrist when he appeared. For, as we have already noticed, when he was speaking of true believers he said “But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him” But when he was speaking of men who might be deceived by the Antichrist, he stuck strictly with the scriptural terminology by referring to them as “those,” “these,” “they,” and “them,” as we see in the following statements:

“Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, end of paragraph 1)

“These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, beginning of paragraph 2)


Thus we see that Irenaeus used precise terminology that clearly distinguished between these two groups. He again used the scriptural words “those,” along with “ye” and “he,” rather than his own words, when speaking of the need for the inhabitants of the land of Judea to flee when they see the abomination of desolation.

“But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 2)


Finally, Irenaeus made one more statement that touches this matter, saying:

“Has the Word come for the ruin and for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrah; but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 27, paragraph 1)


In this passage Irenaeus implies a simultaneous judgment-day for unbelievers and resurrection of believers. Some will assume that this proves he was not saying that the rapture will be before the tribulation. But this is in full accord with the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture. For there will be people who turn to God during the time of the tribulation, and they will be persecuted and slain for their faith. These will be resurrected at approximately the same time as when Christ comes in power and glory to judge the world. (The scriptures do not say their resurrection happens when He comes. But Revelation 20:4 says “they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” So we know that their resurrection takes place at least approximately the same time as He comes.

So now we are faced with two choices. We can either assume that Irenaeus was exceedingly careless as to his wording, and simply did not mean what he said. Or we can assume that the precision of his wording was not a mere coincidence, but that he chose his exact words carefully and with intent. In that case, we are forced to conclude that Irenaeus meant exactly what he said when he wrote:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’"

 

[Biblewriter]

So are you saying he expected these things in his own lifetime or within his generation?

No, the very opposite. He expected them several hundred years into his pwn future.

 

[BABerean2]

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXIX, section 1)

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that ‘many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXX, section 3)

The top quote could be taken in a variety of ways, based on the last few words about "the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome..."

The comment about "the hallowed seventh day" shows a misunderstanding of the relationship between the Sinai Covenant and the New Covenant of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 12:18-24)

He also seems to have missed the promise to Abraham found in Hebrews 11:15-16.

.

 

[Biblewriter]

The top quote could be taken in a variety of ways, based on the last few words about "the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome..."

The comment about "the hallowed seventh day" shows a misunderstanding of the relationship between the Sinai Covenant and the New Covenant of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 12:18-24)

He also seems to have missed the promise to Abraham found in Hebrews 11:15-16.

.

I reject as serious false doctrine, the notion that the words of any person should be accepted as authoritative, other than as proving what ideas were current at certain times. I have noticed numerous interpretive errors in the writings of many ancient writers. So my point is not that we should believe anything, just because so-and-so taught it, but only proving that certain ideas were actually being taught at that time.

 

[Postvieww]

Apparently the saying there is more than one way to skin a cat is true. I read this far differently. I do not believe Irenaeus contradicted himself .

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXIX, section 1)

In my opinion “suddenly caught up “does not refer to immince but to suddenness. I others words Irenaeus was not looking for the Lord to come at any moment. In context it appears “the last contest of the righteous” is the tribulation. Let me be clear, I do not mean the wrath of God when I say tribulation nor do I believe Irenaeus meant the wrath of God . All in the same sentence This is the last contest and when they over come they are crowned. Over come what? Answer in context the last contest the tribulation brought on the church by the man of sin.



“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: ‘And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,’ And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 1)

Section 2:

And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels. For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man's coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men. Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things' sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth].

Irenaeus clearly believed “the resurrection of the just “ will take place after the coming of antichrist not only that he said after the destruction of all nations under his rule and that will be at the coming of Christ.

I have read those of the pre-trib view repeatedly claim there is no resurrection at the second coming of Christ when He comes to defeat antichrist. It certainly appears Irenaeus believed there was a resurrection at that point.

He also states there will be wrath against the righteous (not the wrath of God).

Biblewriter said:


Here we see this same ancient writer just as explicitly saying that “the resurrection of the just” “takes place after the coming of Antichrist.” This appears to flatly contradict his other statement. But is this correct? First, we need to notice that Irenaeus did not say that “the resurrection of the just” takes place after the reign of Antichrist. He only said it “takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule.” To see the significance of this, we need to consider another statement from this same ancient document:

I believe you are twisting what he said here. The destruction of the nations under his rule is after his reign.

I believe all of his statements are consistent.

Biblewriter said:


Here we find first, a distinct statement that Antichrist would reign for three years and six months. But also a distinct statement that this three years and six months would be after “this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world.” Thus we see that Irenaeus placing “the resurrection of the just” “after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule,” was not saying the rapture would be after the three and a half year reign of Antichrist. Rather, he placed the rapture at the beginning of that three and a half year reign. That is, he was saying that the time of “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be” was the three and a half year reign of Antichrist.

I disagree; this is not at all what Irenaeus is saying at all. This is the same type of maneuvering that must be done with the scripture to make all of this rapture theory work. The fact remains the destruction of the nations under his rule is at the end when Christ returns, and that is when Irenaeus said the resurrection will take place.

Ireneaus in his own words is saying the same thing as:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In another post we can get into what Irenaeus said about the “falling away”.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I have read those of the pre-trib view repeatedly claim there is no resurrection at the second coming of Christ when He comes to defeat antichrist. It certainly appears Irenaeus believed there was a resurrection at that point.

It does seem that he believed that, but, it is not related to the "catching up" of the Church.

 

[Biblewriter]

Apparently the saying there is more than one way to skin a cat is true. I read this far differently. I do not believe Irenaeus contradicted himself .

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXIX, section 1)

In my opinion “suddenly caught up “does not refer to immince but to suddenness. I others words Irenaeus was not looking for the Lord to come at any moment. In context it appears “the last contest of the righteous” is the tribulation. Let me be clear, I do not mean the wrath of God when I say tribulation nor do I believe Irenaeus meant the wrath of God . All in the same sentence This is the last contest and when they over come they are crowned. Over come what? Answer in context the last contest the tribulation brought on the church by the man of sin.



“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: ‘And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,’ And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 1)

Section 2:

And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels. For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man's coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men. Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things' sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth].

Irenaeus clearly believed “the resurrection of the just “ will take place after the coming of antichrist not only that he said after the destruction of all nations under his rule and that will be at the coming of Christ.

I have read those of the pre-trib view repeatedly claim there is no resurrection at the second coming of Christ when He comes to defeat antichrist. It certainly appears Irenaeus believed there was a resurrection at that point.

He also states there will be wrath against the righteous (not the wrath of God).

Biblewriter said:


Here we see this same ancient writer just as explicitly saying that “the resurrection of the just” “takes place after the coming of Antichrist.” This appears to flatly contradict his other statement. But is this correct? First, we need to notice that Irenaeus did not say that “the resurrection of the just” takes place after the reign of Antichrist. He only said it “takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule.” To see the significance of this, we need to consider another statement from this same ancient document:

I believe you are twisting what he said here. The destruction of the nations under his rule is after his reign.

I believe all of his statements are consistent.

Biblewriter said:


Here we find first, a distinct statement that Antichrist would reign for three years and six months. But also a distinct statement that this three years and six months would be after “this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world.” Thus we see that Irenaeus placing “the resurrection of the just” “after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule,” was not saying the rapture would be after the three and a half year reign of Antichrist. Rather, he placed the rapture at the beginning of that three and a half year reign. That is, he was saying that the time of “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be” was the three and a half year reign of Antichrist.

I disagree; this is not at all what Irenaeus is saying at all. This is the same type of maneuvering that must be done with the scripture to make all of this rapture theory work. The fact remains the destruction of the nations under his rule is at the end when Christ returns, and that is when Irenaeus said the resurrection will take place.

Ireneaus in his own words is saying the same thing as:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In another post we can get into what Irenaeus said about the “falling away”.

Your analysis fails to take in the distinct change in the nouns and pronouns Irenaeus placed in his scenario. Up to the beginning of the three and a half year reign of the antichrist, he always said something like "the church," "we," or "us." But at that point, his pronouns cahanged to always be "they," them," of "those."

This is proof that his meaning was exactly what I interpreted it to be. The "righteous" he spoke of after that time, were not a part of the "us" he repeatedly spoke of earlier.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Your analysis fails to take in the distinct change in the nouns and pronouns Irenaeus placed in his scenario. Up to the beginning of the three and a half year reign of the antichrist, he always said something like "the church," "we," or "us." But at that point, his pronouns cahanged to always be "they," them," of "those."

This is proof that his meaning was exactly what I interpreted it to be. The "righteous" he spoke of after that time, were not a part of the "us" he repeatedly spoke of earlier.

That's a very weak way to go about making an argument. When one considers the clear writing style used in this translation of Irenaeus, it would seem that dependence solely upon something as subtle as pronoun usage would be unforgivably deceptive, if that had been his intention.

The first time I read through everything you posted, I found your analysis compelling. I went back and focused on what Irenaeus actually said, comparing it to what you said he said, and I found that the two were wholly incompatible. You managed to make him out to be Pre-Trib rapture (before the reign of the Antichrist), when, if his works were taken on their own merit, he was clearly stating a Post-Trib position (at the end of the reign). For the record, I'm not trying to defend either Pre-Trib or Post-Trib, and I hold to neither. I do, however, firmly assert that what you quoted of Irenaeus is definitely of the Post-Trib persuasion, despite your commentary to the contrary.

 

[Biblewriter]

That's a very weak way to go about making an argument. When one considers the clear writing style used in this translation of Irenaeus, it would seem that dependence solely upon something as subtle as pronoun usage would be unforgivably deceptive, if that had been his intention.

The first time I read through everything you posted, I found your analysis compelling. I went back and focused on what Irenaeus actually said, comparing it to what you said he said, and I found that the two were wholly incompatible. You managed to make him out to be Pre-Trib rapture (before the reign of the Antichrist), when, if his works were taken on their own merit, he was clearly stating a Post-Trib position (at the end of the reign). For the record, I'm not trying to defend either Pre-Trib or Post-Trib, and I hold to neither. I do, however, firmly assert that what you quoted of Irenaeus is definitely of the Post-Trib persuasion, despite your commentary to the contrary.

Actually, my analysis was that Irenaeus took a position that today would e called mid trib. Then, and only then, I pointed out that Irenaeus only saw a three and a half year "tribulation," so, in his terns, he was pre-trib.

 

[miknik5]

We should probably start with the sequence of coming events that Irenaeus saw in the scriptures.

“In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: ‘And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.’ It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXVI, section 1)

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXIX, section 1)

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that ‘many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXX, section 3)

“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: ‘And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,’ And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 1)

“And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the new earth. For after the times of the kingdom, he says, ‘I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them.’ And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the general resurrection and the judgment, mentioning ‘the dead, great and small.’ ‘The sea,’ he says, ‘gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover,’ he says, ‘the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and death and hell were sent into the lake of fire, the second death.’ Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal fire. ‘And if any one,’ it is said, ‘was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire.’ And after this, he says, ‘I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth have passed away; also there was no more sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, as a bride adorned for her husband.’ ‘And I heard,’ it is said, ‘a great voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them as their God. And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, because the former things have passed away.’ Isaiah also declares the very same: ‘For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and there shall be no remembrance of the former, neither shall the heart think about them, but they shall find in it joy and exultation.’ Now this is what has been said by the apostle: ‘For the fashion of this world passeth away.’ To the same purpose did the Lord also declare, ‘Heaven and earth shall pass away.’ When these things, therefore, pass away above the earth, John, the Lord’s disciple, says that the new Jerusalem above shall [then] descend, as a bride adorned for her husband; and that this is the tabernacle of God, in which God will dwell with men. Of this Jerusalem the former one is an image—that Jerusalem of the former earth in which the righteous are disciplined beforehand for incorruption and prepared for salvation.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 2)

In this sequence of quotations, we see the following sequence clearly spelled out:

1. In the last times the Roman Empire shall be partitioned among ten kings.

2. One of these ten kings will slay three of the others, subject the rest to his power, and put the Church to flight.

3. When the church is “suddenly caught up from” the nations there will be great tribulation which will be “the last contest of the righteous.”

4. The Antichrist will reign for three years and six months.

5. The Antichrist and his followers will be destroyed when the Lord comes in the clouds.

6. The just will be resurrected after the coming of Antichrist.

7. The righteous will reign in the earth.

8. The survivors of the tribulation will serve in the kingdom and multiply on the earth.

9. After the kingdom will come the general resurrection and judgement.

10. After the judgment will come the new heavens and new earth.

Bullet 6 refers to all those who have a part in the first resurrection?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Actually, my analysis was that Irenaeus took a position that oday would e called mid trib. Then, and only then, I pointed out that Irenaeus only saw a three and a half year "tribulation," so, in his terns, he was pre-trib.

I beg your pardon. I believe I was mistaken in my last comment.

...but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance,

Contrary to popular opinion, we are not all blind, though we do sometimes read too fast and overlook things.

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’

Taken in context with the rest of the passage, this places the "caught up" event right between the violence done to bring the Antichrist to power, and his actual reign, demonstrating your position, as you say.

Irenaeus certainly was a voice worth listening to.

 

[BABerean2]

Then, and only then, I pointed out that Irenaeus only saw a three and a half year "tribulation," so, in his terns, he was pre-trib.

Since the trib ends at the 7th trump of Revelation 11:15, and we find "the time of the judgment of the dead" at Revelation 11:18, there is no seven year tribulation period.


That would make Irenaeus Post-Trib.

.